Republicans win tax cut (extention) for the rich

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postmortemIA

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2006
7,721
40
91
Agree with Chuck, we are digging hole - not just keeping digging it, but doing it faster and faster.

Government has no balls to tell us we're screwed, it would create such panic that market would totally crash. At this point we are probably past point of no return. And it does not take economist to see this.

At some (soon) point, one of two will happen: we won't be able to buy more debt, like when you try to open 10th credit card and you have maxed out 9 already; or we'll fail to make payments on existing debt.

And this is somewhat due to us can't resist to buy cheap useless stuff from China. Almost nobody wants to pay extra for US made thing anymore. Or retailers don't carry it anymore - anywhere.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Per yahoo, it's the employee side.

Wonder if there will be any offsetting spending cuts? Doubt it.

I wonder if the "tax credits" are going to be extended (Making America work or what bullshit name it was a few years ago and other credits)?

I can see employers now saying..."You effectively have a 2% raise next year because of the temporary SS cut so you are getting a smaller/NO raise this year".

SWEET! That will really get the economy going with more money in folks pockets. And if an employer tried that crap I'd kindly explain that tax policy doesn't dictate my compensation.

I see no mention of capital gains or dividend classification so it's still VERY unclear which parts of the bush tax cuts will be extended. Since they are detailing the EITC and child tax credits as being parts of the extension, but NO talk of LTCG then I can only assume it's going up. :(
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
I may be wrong but didn't the tidal wave last election go the idea that people wanted a balanced budget?

I must say as always, same shitty politics, different wrapper on the outside, at least the lame duck will shove everything the voters didn't want down our throats before they get kicked out.

The maths just don't work long-term on spending and if the ratings agencies would get out of their pussy models and just go out and cut UST's or long-term outlook negative maybe it would wake someone up in Washington. When your CDS is wider than companies in your country you are a banana republic, unfortunately at this point the majority of the western world is becoming a banana republic. There are reasons gold and silver keep hitting all-time highs, having said that in panic I really don't see how 50 years of having money is going to change the paradigm and people are going to trade gold and silver. Oh well if the world goes to hell I have my left tail covered and around 1600 ounces of silver and 100 oz of gold at home.

Where do you live?
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
Could pay down the debt by having a balanced budget and viewing the maturity table as a payoff table over 30 years. Move anything on the short fly out and payoff each piece as it comes through. It would take fiscal responsibility over the longish term but could be done.

Having said that the entitlements basically need to be scrapped and re-examined for anything like that to happen.

Can't do that either. See, all of our debt is already on the short end because it makes todays budget look much better due to the much lower interest rate. Roughly ALL of our debt must be rolled over every 4 years. Figure out the interest rates we pay on those types of bonds compared to 30 year bonds and then figure out the additional interest it would add to our budget.

Ka-boom

Then again the same basic thing is true if the bond market simply jacks up rates on the short term bonds and since we have purchased most of those bonds during times of record low rates they really only have one way to go.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
I didn't say pay it off next year, or in the next 3 years. First they obviously need to balance the budget with current tax revenue's, so as to stop adding to the debt.

Then they need to both slash - LARGE slashing - and also raise taxes - on everyone - and take that direct extra tax money and put it into paying off the debt.

If they can do that for 10 years straight, maybe, just maybe, we'll have a F'ing chance.

If they can't even do that...heck, if they can't even try to do that, then WTF do they need more of my, or anyone else's, money for? Because if they can't do that, we're F'd. And if we're F'd, they mine as well let us keep our money and blow it on cheap chinese goods, beer, and cigs. WhyTF not?

People want to keep thinking there's a magic way out of these massive huge untackled issues we've got, without having to go through real countrywide pain in solving them. Well, Reality Check! There is no way to solve them without Everyone taking a nice big bite of the shit sandwhich, and swallowing.

The WWI generation fought WWI, WWII generation fought WWII, Korea generation fought Korea, Vietnam generation fought Vietnam, then we've got the Gulf War I and II generations, along with Afghanistan. Well, there's a new battle now, and instead of sacrificing limbs and lives, we'll be sacrificing money and time...less time to retire, and more time worked, before dying.

Or we can just keep up with our Consumer of Shit culture and have it all blow up....I can already tell which direction a disturbing number of Americans are choosing to go....

Chuck

Hey I am with ya bud, just pointing out the reality.

Personally, I say fuck it, lets put everything on the ye ole' credit card and party like its 1999 until the wheels come off. We are way to fucked and don't have anywhere close to the political will that is required to even try to fix things.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Agree with Chuck, we are digging hole - not just keeping digging it, but doing it faster and faster.

Government has no balls to tell us we're screwed, it would create such panic that market would totally crash. At this point we are probably past point of no return. And it does not take economist to see this.

At some (soon) point, one of two will happen: we won't be able to buy more debt, like when you try to open 10th credit card and you have maxed out 9 already; or we'll fail to make payments on existing debt.

And this is somewhat due to us can't resist to buy cheap useless stuff from China. Almost nobody wants to pay extra for US made thing anymore. Or retailers don't carry it anymore - anywhere.

Most things it's almost impossible to find American-made alternates, even things that five or ten years ago were common. When we bought our washer last year there were ZERO American-made models at Sears, Best Buy, Lowes, Home Depot, or various appliance stores. We looked hard. We ended up buying a Korean brand made in Korea; if American manufacturers are going to build their products out of the country then screw 'em. Other things there are some partially-American made alternates, but often not as good and for twice the price. For instance, I also bought a new bike this summer, a Kawasaki Ninja. The only American-made alternatives are Harley-Davidson (crude and way above my means) and Honda Goldwing (nice and way above my means.) Automobiles we still do pretty well, and at least my motorcycle is made in Japan not China, but lots of things are ONLY available from China. Even books - we buy a LOT of books, and more and more I pick up a book only to put it back because it is printed in China. Even freakin' gypsum board is often made in China now if you don't go out of your way to make sure you're getting the American-made product.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,945
122
106
we don't have a tax problem. We have a spending problem. Nobody gets a tax cut. Present rates simply get forwarded. And further more. It's not the governments money. It belongs to the earners that made the money. All taxes are income confiscation.
 

The-Noid

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,117
0
76
Can't do that either. See, all of our debt is already on the short end because it makes todays budget look much better due to the much lower interest rate. Roughly ALL of our debt must be rolled over every 4 years. Figure out the interest rates we pay on those types of bonds compared to 30 year bonds and then figure out the additional interest it would add to our budget.

Ka-boom

Then again the same basic thing is true if the bond market simply jacks up rates on the short term bonds and since we have purchased most of those bonds during times of record low rates they really only have one way to go.

Lots of notional outstanding in the 5-7-10 fly and the 15-20-30 fly.
 

Balt

Lifer
Mar 12, 2000
12,674
482
126
we don't have a tax problem. We have a spending problem. Nobody gets a tax cut. Present rates simply get forwarded. And further more. It's not the governments money. It belongs to the earners that made the money. All taxes are income confiscation.

Except no one is willing to sacrifice any of the spending that benefits them. So yes, it is a tax problem. If no one is willing to part with the things that the money is spent on, then at the very least they should be expected to pay for them so they know what the REAL costs are. Right now we're just charging it to the credit card.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Most things it's almost impossible to find American-made alternates, even things that five or ten years ago were common. When we bought our washer last year there were ZERO American-made models at Sears, Best Buy, Lowes, Home Depot, or various appliance stores. We looked hard. We ended up buying a Korean brand made in Korea; if American manufacturers are going to build their products out of the country then screw 'em. Other things there are some partially-American made alternates, but often not as good and for twice the price. For instance, I also bought a new bike this summer, a Kawasaki Ninja. The only American-made alternatives are Harley-Davidson (crude and way above my means) and Honda Goldwing (nice and way above my means.) Automobiles we still do pretty well, and at least my motorcycle is made in Japan not China, but lots of things are ONLY available from China. Even books - we buy a LOT of books, and more and more I pick up a book only to put it back because it is printed in China. Even freakin' gypsum board is often made in China now if you don't go out of your way to make sure you're getting the American-made product.

You should have bought Meile or Bosch both German. I don't like Korea either due to Chaebols which are nothing free market about them. Plus not as good.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,456
854
126
So we're keeping taxes low, like the Republicans want, and spending more, like the Democrats want.

Anyone else see the problem with this grand compromise?

It's the same thing as keeping taxes low and spending more like the Repubs did under Bush.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
The best part about this whole thing appears to be the 2% reduction in social security taxes. That's money left in everybody's pockets that will spur spending and it's not chump change, that's up to 2100 bucks PER PERSON.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,572
3,401
136
The best part about this whole thing appears to be the 2% reduction in social security taxes. That's money left in everybody's pockets that will spur spending and it's not chump change, that's up to 2100 bucks PER PERSON COMING FROM CHINA.

fixed (since the difference has to be borrowed).
 

tweaker2

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,477
6,901
136
Demand that the unemployment extension gets paid for by cutting other social programs, and pay for extending the tax cuts for the rich by getting more loans from the Chinese.

Or, borrow it all from the Chinese and everybody gets what they want, including the Chinese.

Hey, that sounds like a new twist on that fantastically successful Reagonomics Theory of Economic Prosperity for the Rich, of the Rich and by he Rich!

Let's Do It! Obama you da' man! That'll teach those greedy repub bastards! :p
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
8
0
So those that are against this “compromise” have you written your Congressman and Senators to tell them to vote no?
I just wrote all 3. Not sure if it will help but if even 1 senator votes no that will help.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
The best part about this whole thing appears to be the 2% reduction in social security taxes. That's money left in everybody's pockets that will spur spending and it's not chump change, that's up to 2100 bucks PER PERSON.

This plan is crucifixion on fixed income and middle-class because of inflation which will result by printing another 900 billion.
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,302
144
106
Wow, your beloved Democratic party is what has given the unions their massive strength and understand this, they don't give a damn about your idea. The unions won't give these jobs to the average Joe, they will protect their own at all costs.

speculative bullshit.

Average joe has been getting these jobs.

www.recovery.gov
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,203
28,218
136
So first, the republicans are against extending unemployment unless they can find a way to pay for it. But if Obama extends tax cuts for the people making the most money, now it is okay to extend unemployment without paying for it? :hmm:
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
Lots of notional outstanding in the 5-7-10 fly and the 15-20-30 fly.

Doesn't change the fact that the average roll over on our ENTIRE debt is 4 years. It just means that more is on the shorter (1y,2y) to make up for the 5-7-10's, from what I understand there has been a flight out of the longer term stuff (not counting what the Fed is buying of course).

I don't see how it changes my conclusion either.
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,302
144
106
So first, the republicans are against extending unemployment unless they can find a way to pay for it. But if Obama extends tax cuts for the people making the most money, now it is okay to extend unemployment without paying for it? :hmm:

Yeah...

and Gotta love how Obama is such a hardcore leftist fringe.

he is soo fringe he pisses off 90% of the Democratic party at every opportunity. The other 10% socialist love him though :)
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
So first, the republicans are against extending unemployment unless they can find a way to pay for it. But if Obama extends tax cuts for the people making the most money, now it is okay to extend unemployment without paying for it? :hmm:

So first the Democrats put that paygo thing into place and then they extend tax cuts AND spending increases at the same time? :hmm:

psst, they both suck, don't tell anyone.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
The best part about this whole thing appears to be the 2% reduction in social security taxes. That's money left in everybody's pockets that will spur spending and it's not chump change, that's up to 2100 bucks PER PERSON.

Do we have $2100 bucks per person to be "letting them keep"?