Republicans: No Big Government - Unless It's About Rape.

[mikeymikec]

This post by far is the most dumb thing I have seen in this thread so far. Congrats on that.

You do not need to have been raped to have an opinion on this issue.

No, but having an opinion which puts more pressure on victims (as well as implied criticism that they're "not doing enough") is a pretty shitty thing to broadcast, the fact that the poster very likely has no experience with which to base their shitty opinion on just makes it worse.

I have an opinion on this topic too, despite the fact that I haven't been raped (but I have known two people who have been sexually assaulted), and I'd prefer to give victims the choice (without any pressure) whether to report the crime or not. I commend those who have, I empathise with those who haven't, because it's a pretty shitty experience to have to re-live, and they might suffer further indignity by having some dickwad officer start questioning their choices and suggesting that it might have been their fault.

Yes, those that have might indirectly save others from the same experience, and that's a good thing, but a person has to take care of their own well-being first, because it's very unlikely that someone else will do it.

So, coming back to your point (in which you made an incorrect observation and coupled it with an insult), whose opinion are you more likely to attach more value to, the one that is actually based on knowledge/experience of the topic, or just some random person who feels that their opinion is worth something?

 

[glenn1]

No, but having an opinion which puts more pressure on victims (as well as implied criticism that they're "not doing enough") is a pretty shitty thing to broadcast, the fact that the poster very likely has no experience with which to base their shitty opinion on just makes it worse.

I have an opinion on this topic too, despite the fact that I haven't been raped, nor do I know anyone who has been raped, and I'd prefer to give victims the choice (without any pressure) whether to report the crime or not. I commend those who have, I empathise with those who haven't, because it's a pretty shitty experience to have to re-live, and they might suffer further indignity by having some dickwad officer start questioning their choices and suggesting that it might have been their fault.

Yes, those that have might indirectly save others from the same experience, and that's a good thing, but a person has to take care of their own well-being first, because it's very unlikely that someone else will do it.

I'm no expert, but I think that someone else being raped is a far bigger "indignity" than dealing with a dickwad police officer. If there was ever a choice you could question it would be allowing another's life to be completely shattered just to avoid a few minutes of discomfort.

 

[realibrad]

No, but having an opinion which puts more pressure on victims (as well as implied criticism that they're "not doing enough") is a pretty shitty thing to broadcast, the fact that the poster very likely has no experience with which to base their shitty opinion on just makes it worse.

Well, I have no problem with that. Its free speech, and the only way to learn you are wrong, is to have your views questioned.

I have an opinion on this topic too, despite the fact that I haven't been raped (but I have known two people who have been sexually assaulted), and I'd prefer to give victims the choice (without any pressure) whether to report the crime or not. I commend those who have, I empathise with those who haven't, because it's a pretty shitty experience to have to re-live, and they might suffer further indignity by having some dickwad officer start questioning their choices and suggesting that it might have been their fault.

You seem to assume the victim did nothing wrong. It might be true, and it might not be true.

Yes, those that have might indirectly save others from the same experience, and that's a good thing, but a person has to take care of their own well-being first, because it's very unlikely that someone else will do it.

So, coming back to your point, whose opinion are you more likely to attach more value to, the one that is actually based on knowledge/experience of the topic, or just some random person who feels that their opinion is worth something?

I will follow whichever has the better argument.

 

[realibrad]

I'm no expert, but I think that someone else being raped is a far bigger "indignity" than dealing with a dickwad police officer. If there was ever a choice you could question it would be allowing another's life to be completely shattered just to avoid a few minutes of discomfort.

And the NSA spying on you to possibly save people is a small indignity, but worth it to save lives right.

But, I am sure you will ignore this too.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Instead of bickering over a rape clause call it what it is, a bill to stop abortion over 20 weeks. This entire argument over rape past the 20 week pregnancy is going to effect very few people. The real question should be can a woman choose to abort at any time she chooses.
Why pass a bill you're not able to enforce?

 

[Blackjack200]

Instead of bickering over a rape clause call it what it is, a bill to stop abortion over 20 weeks. This entire argument over rape past the 20 week pregnancy is going to effect very few people. The real question should be can a woman choose to abort at any time she chooses.
Why pass a bill you're not able to enforce?

The reason rape is discussed is because it nicely illustrates how horrible it is to tell women what to do with their bodies. Once you realize it's inhuman to prohibit a raped woman from ending her pregnancy, it's not much of a leap to realize it's just as bad for any other woman.

 

[glenn1]

And the NSA spying on you to possibly save people is a small indignity, but worth it to save lives right.

But, I am sure you will ignore this too.

No, you're correct. If you were in the act being raped I wouldn't lift a finger to help you citing your own arguments. That's what you want to hear, correct?

 

[glenn1]

The reason rape is discussed is because it nicely illustrates how horrible it is to tell women what to do with their bodies. Once you realize it's inhuman to prohibit a raped woman from ending her pregnancy, it's not much of a leap to realize it's just as bad for any other woman.

Does this extend to assisted suicide, prostitution, drug use, and other laws which proscribe what women (and men) can do with their bodies? Fine with whatever answer you give but want to see if you're consistent.

 

[rudeguy]

The reason rape is discussed is because it nicely illustrates how horrible it is to tell women what to do with their bodies. Once you realize it's inhuman to prohibit a raped woman from ending her pregnancy, it's not much of a leap to realize it's just as bad for any other woman.

and when do we start talking about killing babies just because you are a whore and don't want to make the guy where a condom?

 

[Rebel_L]

Again, you know what's best for rape victims. Better to go to the ER and tell them what they should be doing.

Fucking asshole.

Its like your missing the point or something. This is a law that allows for exceptions, and if you want to qualify for the exception you need to show that you are an exception. No rape victim has to file any report to qualify for an abortion. They only have to do so if they want to qualify for a otherwise illegal abortion (past 20 weeks)

While abortion and rape are certainly far more emotionally charged topics than theft, if you want your insurance company to replace something that was stolen you are going to have to provide them with proof of ownership and a police report to satisfy them to give you new stuff.

If you want special treatment you usually have to show that you deserve it. For late term abortions this includes things like having a doctor sign a note that your life is in danger without one. Or if you are a minor having reported being raped to authorities, or if an adult having gotten counseling for rape 48 prior, or having be treated for rape related injuries. If you want special treatment for being a crime victim it is not really all that unreasonable to ask you to identify yourself as such.

 

[realibrad]

No, you're correct. If you were in the act being raped I wouldn't lift a finger to help you citing your own arguments. That's what you want to hear, correct?

No. In direct response to that, I would hope you would help, but I don't believe you should be forced to through law.

As for what I have been asking before, I assume you already know. If not, I will ask again if needed.

Why is it wrong to tax the public to fund things the democrats thing will help people, but not wrong to compel someone who has been raped to go through a long emotional legal process?

I also don't consider myself a democrat, so I believe both are wrong, but you do not, which is why I ask.

 

[Newell Steamer]

The reason rape is discussed is because it nicely illustrates how horrible it is to tell women what to do with their bodies. Once you realize it's inhuman to prohibit a raped woman from ending her pregnancy, it's not much of a leap to realize it's just as bad for any other woman.

I would take this back to the article itself;

Republicans say this bill is necessary because fetuses after 20 weeks of development can feel pain.

Which is false; http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/s...-pain-justification-for-20-week-abortion-bans

Republicans aren't defending anyone here - they just want to punish women for being women by demanding the government controls what they do with their bodies, regardless of what was inflicted on them. And, on the latter (and proven by the usual Righthadists on these very forums) women could have prevented rape - ergo, they should not be allowed to have an abortion.

It's 2012 all over again.

 

[Blackjack200]

Does this extend to assisted suicide,

Yes.

prostitution,

Yes.

drug use,

Yes.

and other laws which proscribe what women (and men) can do with their bodies? Fine with whatever answer you give but want to see if you're consistent.

In all three cases above, there would need to be some regulation. For example, with prostitution, there would need to be rules to prevent child prostitution and human trafficking.

 

[mikeymikec]

Well, I have no problem with that. Its free speech, and the only way to learn you are wrong, is to have your views questioned.

True, however I don't think glenn1 has any intention of learning from this experience, as he clearly hasn't even spent a few minutes putting himself in the position of the victim with this gem of a quote:

I'm no expert, but I think that someone else being raped is a far bigger "indignity" than dealing with a dickwad police officer. If there was ever a choice you could question it would be allowing another's life to be completely shattered just to avoid a few minutes of discomfort.

Hmm, gee, let me think about this for a moment: It's a serious allegation, so a single "few minutes" interview is unlikely. Then there will probably be a medical exam, more interviews, and a statement with explicit details taken. If there's sufficient evidence, it goes to court. If the victim or alleged rapist is well-known, it's a reasonable assumption that they can expect a media circus around the case as well as warped information reaching people who feel that they know enough to judge (and/or simply abuse the victim if the alleged rapist has a rabid fanbase).

You seem to assume the victim did nothing wrong. It might be true, and it might not be true.

That's an interesting opinion to have for a non-existent hypothetical scenario.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Its like your missing the point or something. This is a law that allows for exceptions, and if you want to qualify for the exception you need to show that you are an exception. No rape victim has to file any report to qualify for an abortion. They only have to do so if they want to qualify for a otherwise illegal abortion (past 20 weeks)

While abortion and rape are certainly far more emotionally charged topics than theft, if you want your insurance company to replace something that was stolen you are going to have to provide them with proof of ownership and a police report to satisfy them to give you new stuff.

If you want special treatment you usually have to show that you deserve it. For late term abortions this includes things like having a doctor sign a note that your life is in danger without one. Or if you are a minor having reported being raped to authorities, or if an adult having gotten counseling for rape 48 prior, or having be treated for rape related injuries. If you want special treatment for being a crime victim it is not really all that unreasonable to ask you to identify yourself as such.

This guy gets what I was saying. While I don't agree with him he gets the point and isn't trying to hide his position.

 

[realibrad]

True, however I don't think glenn1 has any intention of learning from this experience, as he clearly hasn't even spent a few minutes putting himself in the position of the victim with this gem of a quote:



Hmm, gee, let me think about this for a moment: It's a serious allegation, so a single "few minutes" interview is unlikely. Then there will probably be a medical exam, more interviews, and a statement with explicit details taken. If there's sufficient evidence, it goes to court. If the victim or alleged rapist is well-known, it's a reasonable assumption that they can expect a media circus around the case as well as warped information reaching people who feel that they know enough to judge (and/or simply abuse the victim if the alleged rapist has a rabid fanbase).

That's an interesting opinion to have for a non-existent hypothetical scenario.

What hypothetical scenario?

Ill make one though.

Woman gets drunk and wonders into a sex club. Another drunk person does sexual things to her. The woman was too drunk to consent, but the rapist was too drunk to notice. The rapist had an expectation that someone in a sex club would be there for sex, but was so drunk she acted before thinking, raping the other woman.

Is the victim 100% not at fault?

 

[Blackjack200]

and when do we start talking about killing babies just because you are a whore and don't want to make the guy where a condom?

Ladies and gentlemen, Exhibit A.

Its like your missing the point or something. This is a law that allows for exceptions, and if you want to qualify for the exception you need to show that you are an exception. No rape victim has to file any report to qualify for an abortion. They only have to do so if they want to qualify for a otherwise illegal abortion (past 20 weeks)

Yeah, got it. It's fucking horrible.

While abortion and rape are certainly far more emotionally charged topics than theft, if you want your insurance company to replace something that was stolen you are going to have to provide them with proof of ownership and a police report to satisfy them to give you new stuff.

And when I obtained the policy I signed a contract agreeing to that stipulation.

What if men that were raped were required to file a police report before getting an HIV test? Do you think that would be unfair and invasive?

If you want special treatment you usually have to show that you deserve it. For late term abortions this includes things like having a doctor sign a note that your life is in danger without one. Or if you are a minor having reported being raped to authorities, or if an adult having gotten counseling for rape 48 prior, or having be treated for rape related injuries. If you want special treatment for being a crime victim it is not really all that unreasonable to ask you to identify yourself as such.

I'd say if anything illustrates the chasm between pro-lifers and pro-choicers, it's that pro lifers think that women having control over their own heath care decisions constitutes "special treatment".

 

[rudeguy]

Ladies and gentlemen, Exhibit A.

What percentage of abortions come from rape?

Please answer me that one simple question.

 

[Blackjack200]

What percentage of abortions come from rape?

Please answer me that one simple question.

I know, I know. Those stupid sluts just can't keep their legs closed. They need to be punished.

 

[mikeymikec]

Is the victim 100% not at fault?

In the eyes of the law? Nope, she's blame-free. Raping someone who is drunk is just as wrong/illegal as raping someone who is sober. Being drunk isn't illegal either. The woman has committed no crime.

The personal opinion of a representative of the law should be identical to the law they're supposed to represent, unfortunately that sometimes isn't the case.

 

[realibrad]

In the eyes of the law? Nope, she's blame-free. Raping someone who is drunk is just as wrong/illegal as raping someone who is sober. Being drunk isn't illegal either. The woman has committed no crime.

The personal opinion of a representative of the law should be identical to the law they're supposed to represent, unfortunately that sometimes isn't the case.

I did not ask the law, I asked you.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I know, I know. Those stupid sluts just can't keep their legs closed. They need to be punished.

Come on we both know they just need to hold an aspirin between their knees'

 

[rudeguy]

I know, I know. Those stupid sluts just can't keep their legs closed. They need to be punished.

Could you please answer the simple question?

 

[Darwin333]

I guess the pro-choice side is more concerned about the abortion than they are catching the rapist since a police report is a "hassle."

It is a well known fact that a large portion of rapes go unreported and whats worse the trial is often hell on a rape victim. Generally one of the main defense strategies is to shame and destroy the credibility of the rape victim along with dragging out and publicly parading every skeleton the victim might (or might not) have.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

What percentage of abortions come from rape?

Please answer me that one simple question.

Any female capable of ovulation may become pregnant after rape by a fertile male. Rape conception happens between 25,000 and 32,000 times each year in the U.S. In a three-year longitudinal study of 4,000 American women, physician Melisa Holmes estimated from data from her study that forced sexual intercourse causes over 32,000 pregnancies in the United States each year.[8] That study revealed that among women aged 12–45, pregnancy occurred in 5% of victims of rape

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy_from_rape