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Republicans joins Democrats to reject foodstamps cuts

From Abroad

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Here, too, Republican votes for the tabling motion were pivotal. Fifteen GOP senators — including Western state conservatives — joined in support of the growers and Agriculture Committee leadership.

The food stamp vote was significant because the amendment, offered by Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.), mirrors a proposal by House Republicans that would also convert the program to a state block grant and cut funding — albeit not as much as the tea party conservative proposed.

Paul was proposing a $37 billion or 45 percent cut from the projected funds for next year. The House GOP budget plan would save about half as much over roughly the same period.

“It’s out of control. It’s doubled in the last 10 years,” Paul said. “We do not have an endless supply of money.”

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0612/77391.html
 
Somethings got to give. The Republicans got to acknowledge that tax increases are going to be needed to reduce the debt. (within reason)

However, so it cutting entitlement benefits.
 
Somethings got to give. The Republicans got to acknowledge that tax increases are going to be needed to reduce the debt. (within reason)

However, so it cutting entitlement benefits.
I agree, but cutting food stamps seems to be a pretty dick place to cut. It's doubled in a decade largely because actual unemployment has more or less doubled, and while the administrative costs aren't linear, actual disbursements are.

As far as compromise, I agree. I'll happily agree to across the board tax increases on everyone - as soon as government shows some spending discipline. Reduce actual spending for one year and I'll happily support double tax increases. Cut spending 2%, raise tax rates 4%. I'll even support doubling that for the highest income brackets, even though I'm not comfortable supporting more sacrifice by others than by myself because they earn more. But it has to be real spending levels, not D.C. cuts where you estimate 10% increase in costs and 10% increase in need, then pass a 10% spending increase which one side champions as incredible fiscal responsibility and the other decries as heartless draconian cuts. Otherwise, increasing federal taxes is just like throwing gasoline on a fire. Give them an extra buck and they'll spend four.
 
I agree, but cutting food stamps seems to be a pretty dick place to cut. It's doubled in a decade largely because actual unemployment has more or less doubled, and while the administrative costs aren't linear, actual disbursements are.

As far as compromise, I agree. I'll happily agree to across the board tax increases on everyone - as soon as government shows some spending discipline. Reduce actual spending for one year and I'll happily support double tax increases. Cut spending 2%, raise tax rates 4%. I'll even support doubling that for the highest income brackets, even though I'm not comfortable supporting more sacrifice by others than by myself because they earn more. But it has to be real spending levels, not D.C. cuts where you estimate 10% increase in costs and 10% increase in need, then pass a 10% spending increase which one side champions as incredible fiscal responsibility and the other decries as heartless draconian cuts. Otherwise, increasing federal taxes is just like throwing gasoline on a fire. Give them an extra buck and they'll spend four.

This all sounds more than reasonable. I wouldn't even go that far myself, 2:1 tax increases over spending cuts. Heck I'd go the other way, 1:2 in a heartbeat, so long as these measures aren't implemented for another year or two to give the economy some more growth, and then implemented in stages.

However, the real problem is you can't make that kind of bargain in our political system. It reminds me of the immigration issue: we'll support amnesty for some illegals, IF the border is closed first. Sounds reasonable since you don't want the one without the other. Trouble is, what happens when the one is implemented but the other side reneges on the other? Or worse yet, not even reneging because there's no promise to renege on. We know on the issue of taxation that 97% of the GOP in Congress have signed a pledge to never increase them for any reason. The problem then is that there's no incentive to give them their spending cuts.

That pledge is the single biggest enemy to a balanced budget right now. Not only because it takes tax increases off the table as a tool to balance, but because it makes the spending cuts a fool's bargain for the side who would rather not cut the spending (especially the entitlement spending). Government only works by compromise. We don't have that right now.

- wolf
 
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As far as compromise, I agree. I'll happily agree to across the board tax increases on everyone - as soon as government shows some spending discipline. Reduce actual spending for one year and I'll happily support double tax increases. Cut spending 2%, raise tax rates 4%. I'll even support doubling that for the highest income brackets, even though I'm not comfortable supporting more sacrifice by others than by myself because they earn more.
Raising the top marginal rate won't give the government more revenue. The government doesn't need any more revenue anyway.

I actually think that if the corporate marginal tax rate was reduced to 15% or less, the government would actually get more revenue, but that's the only way the government should be allowed more revenue. Unfortunately, Dr. Paul is the only one in either party who supports having a corporate tax rate less than 25% (and that isn't even 30% less than the 35% marginal rate that it's at now).

I could support getting rid of all deductions with reduction or elimination of the payroll tax as long as no one's taxes go up. That wouldn't give the gov more revenue, but it would reduce the administrative costs of the IRS so that would effectively reduce the deficit (although not by much).

Anyway, if the corporate tax rate were reduced to 15%, then that would reduce offshoring by big companies and result in more government revenue. GE was comfortable paying billions in corporate taxes to other countries and that's because the U.S. has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world.
 
This all sounds more than reasonable. I wouldn't even go that far myself, 2:1 tax increases over spending cuts. Heck I'd go the other way, 1:2 in a heartbeat, so long as these measures aren't implemented for another year or two to give the economy some more growth, and then implemented in stages.

However, the real problem is you can't make that kind of bargain in our political system. It reminds me of the immigration issue: we'll support amnesty for some illegals, IF the border is closed first. Sounds reasonable since you don't want the one without the other. Trouble is, what happens when the one is implemented but the other side reneges on the other? Or worse yet, not even reneging because there's no promise to renege on. We know on the issue of taxation that 97% of the GOP in Congress have signed a pledge to never increase them for any reason. The problem then is that there's no incentive to give them their spending cuts.

That pledge is the single biggest enemy to a balanced budget right now. Not only because it takes tax increases off the table as a tool to balance, but because it makes the spending cuts a fool's bargain for the side who would rather not cut the spending (especially the entitlement spending). Government only works by compromise. We don't have that right now.

- wolf
Problem is, promised spending cuts never materialize. Every time the right has compromised to raise taxes, no balancing cuts can be made. Thus the pledge, a belated recognition of the fact that raising taxes will only result in increased deficit spending and never have offsetting spending cuts. It's a thorny problem made worse by the pledge, but the pledge itself is a reaction to broken promises.

I'd say there are three very much bigger enemies to a balanced budget right now. First, the economy - with tax revenue so low and demand for services so high, any meaningful cuts are extremely difficult and any meaningful revenue increases will likely be borne by a small percentage of the population. Second, our very high corporate tax rate. Raising taxes just gives businesses and wealthy business owners more incentive to move economic activity safely offshore, whether it's higher rates on personal income or on the corporate income from which it is derived. And it gives them even more incentive to spend their time and money lobbying the government for more exclusions and tax shelters, negating the purpose of the higher taxes. But the biggest enemy to a balance budget has to be base line budgeting. If we can't even agree on the definitions of a cut and an increase, how can we ever balance a budget? And if we did settle on the Democrat version, how could we ever balance a budget when spending the same actually means spending 5% or 10% more than last year?


Raising the top marginal rate won't give the government more revenue. The government doesn't need any more revenue anyway.

I actually think that if the corporate marginal tax rate was reduced to 15% or less, the government would actually get more revenue, but that's the only way the government should be allowed more revenue. Unfortunately, Dr. Paul is the only one in either party who supports having a corporate tax rate less than 25% (and that isn't even 30% less than the 35% marginal rate that it's at now).

I could support getting rid of all deductions with reduction or elimination of the payroll tax as long as no one's taxes go up. That wouldn't give the gov more revenue, but it would reduce the administrative costs of the IRS so that would effectively reduce the deficit (although not by much).

Anyway, if the corporate tax rate were reduced to 15%, then that would reduce offshoring by big companies and result in more government revenue. GE was comfortable paying billions in corporate taxes to other countries and that's because the U.S. has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world.
Raising the top marginal rate might give the government more revenue, depending on how it is done. Higher tax rates make some investments and economic activity impractical, but I wouldn't say categorically that this always offsets the additional revenue from the higher rates. And until we can all agree on a MUCH smaller size of government, government certainly does need more revenue. Right now we're all willing to cut the other guy's programs and raise the other guy's taxes, but not cut our own programs nor raise our own taxes. I see no practical way to decrease federal government spending by a third any more than I see any practical way to increase revenue by a third.

I'd love to see the US corporate income tax abolished completely and capital gains taxed as wage income (after adjustment for inflation and perhaps excluding real and personal property sales), but without either some fundamental shift in mentality among the American public or some return to a tariff system, that won't change the dynamic enough to make manufacturing in America competitive with manufacturing in low wage, low regulatory burden nations. Mostly it would change the price that an American company pays for the products it imports from its foreign subsidiary to put more of the apparent profit in the tax-free nation. It would also probably not greatly decrease the IRS' costs, as a lack of corporate tax would incent executives and owners to maintain as corporate holdings things that are exclusively for their own benefit. We'd need a LOT of oversight to know if that ski chalet is actually a business marketing investment or in reality the Chairman's new tax free vacation home.
 
Food stamps should probably be scrapped entirely. If you want to help people expand unemployment. That way you help people who deserve help.
 
Food stamps should probably be scrapped entirely. If you want to help people expand unemployment. That way you help people who deserve help.
All Americans deserve to not starve. That's pretty basic.

There's a ton of abuse - I don't know how many times I've been in line behind women buying steaks and ribs with their food stamp cards - but that doesn't change the need for those actually without much income or means to eat.
 
I agree, but cutting (fill in the blank) seems to be a pretty dick place to cut. It's doubled in a decade largely because actual unemployment has more or less doubled, and while the administrative costs aren't linear, actual disbursements are.

People against cuts always find some excuse not to cut. Why? because thers always someone depending on a handout.
 
Problem is, promised spending cuts never materialize. Every time the right has compromised to raise taxes, no balancing cuts can be made. Thus the pledge, a belated recognition of the fact that raising taxes will only result in increased deficit spending and never have offsetting spending cuts. It's a thorny problem made worse by the pledge, but the pledge itself is a reaction to broken promises.

The last time taxes were actually raised was early in the Clinton years, rendering your argument dishonest.

Current Repub murmurings aren't about raising taxes on the rich, anyway, but about raising taxes on everybody else.

They call for sacrifice from everybody else, one way or another, yet exclude those at the top, those best able to make sacrifice painlessly.
 
Food stamps don't need to be necessarily cut, but they need to stop giving them in the form of EBT cards that can be used for cigareets, liquor, lobster, lottery tickets, jewelry, designer clothes, etc. The fraud level is just way out of control.
 
You do not "deserve" to be fed by others simply for being born in America. That is exactly the opposite of deserve.

There's more food thrown away in this country than ever given to others. Throwing away & giving away food actually helps to keep production of food high & stable, something that benefits nearly all Americans.

The notion that there's any scarcity of food in this country is delusional, other than scarcity created by mal-distribution.
 
Food stamps don't need to be necessarily cut, but they need to stop giving them in the form of EBT cards that can be used for cigareets, liquor, lobster, lottery tickets, jewelry, designer clothes, etc. The fraud level is just way out of control.

There was a recent issue in Minnesota with food stamp recipients "losing" their EBT cards 4+ times in one year.

Sounds to me like those people need to be in a group home, not on food stamps.
 
Raising the top marginal rate won't give the government more revenue. The government doesn't need any more revenue anyway.

I actually think that if the corporate marginal tax rate was reduced to 15% or less, the government would actually get more revenue, but that's the only way the government should be allowed more revenue. Unfortunately, Dr. Paul is the only one in either party who supports having a corporate tax rate less than 25% (and that isn't even 30% less than the 35% marginal rate that it's at now).

I could support getting rid of all deductions with reduction or elimination of the payroll tax as long as no one's taxes go up. That wouldn't give the gov more revenue, but it would reduce the administrative costs of the IRS so that would effectively reduce the deficit (although not by much).

Anyway, if the corporate tax rate were reduced to 15%, then that would reduce offshoring by big companies and result in more government revenue. GE was comfortable paying billions in corporate taxes to other countries and that's because the U.S. has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world.
You know your "doctor" paul is irrelevant now, right? He's thrown in the towel and will never run for president again either and even his own son is now chum with Romney.
 
You do not "deserve" to be fed by others simply for being born in America. That is exactly the opposite of deserve.
Most Americans simply don't agree. This society is developed enough and rich enough that unlike most nations in history we can very easily afford to feed the truly destitute, even in huge numbers, and even the hugely indolent. It just honestly doesn't cost that much in the grand scheme of things. And a lot of these people are children, who certainly need to be fed even if they have idiot parents who drink and watch tv like they're paid to (because in a way, they are).
 
Most Americans simply don't agree. This society is developed enough and rich enough that unlike most nations in history we can very easily afford to feed the truly destitute, even in huge numbers, and even the hugely indolent. It just honestly doesn't cost that much in the grand scheme of things. And a lot of these people are children, who certainly need to be fed even if they have idiot parents who drink and watch tv like they're paid to (because in a way, they are).

Just because we can do something does not mean we should.

You cannot have a society where obligations only run one way. If you expect for society to help you, then you should be expected to live your life in a "moral" fashion.

And you should really stop using children as hostages to support your value system.
 
Just because we can do something does not mean we should.

You cannot have a society where obligations only run one way. If you expect for society to help you, then you should be expected to live your life in a "moral" fashion.

And you should really stop using children as hostages to support your value system.

Yeh, just let the kids go hungry, huh?

Pre-Reagan, we had a deal, a society where obligations ran both ways- the society of the New Deal. American capitalists employed American workers at Union wage levels and everybody prospered. It was considered a privilege to pay big taxes on big money. Trade barriers & financial regulation kept the sharpies from taking the whole pie. Which all went out the window with Reaganomics.

Today, it's cheaper & more profitable to keep people on the dole than to educate them or hire them to produce anything. It's politically advantageous, too, when the proper pitch is presented to the usual moralistic nimrods who still have jobs at all, who think that their own situation isn't mostly a matter of luck vs any sort of excellence on their part. Middle & working class people are very much subject to economic forces beyond their control unless they exercise control at the ballot box.
 
Pre-Reagan, we had a deal, a society where obligations ran both ways- the society of the New Deal. American capitalists employed American workers at Union wage levels and everybody prospered. It was considered a privilege to pay big taxes on big money. Trade barriers & financial regulation kept the sharpies from taking the whole pie. Which all went out the window with Reaganomics.

I believe you posted statistics showing that the decoupling happened in the 1970s. I am pretty sure Ronald Reagan did not have a time machine.
 
Just because we can do something does not mean we should.

You cannot have a society where obligations only run one way. If you expect for society to help you, then you should be expected to live your life in a "moral" fashion.

And you should really stop using children as hostages to support your value system.
You speak of morals but want to let kids starve? It is a real question, I'm not trying to inflame. It is simply untenable to let people starve to death in a rich society as the US is (disgustingly wealthy, from a historical standpoint).

It would seem to that the logical solution would be to keep them from having kids in the first place.
OK, so what about those already around? The devil is in the details. And what about the other parents? none of us want to see a crack head sh*t out five kids from different fathers, but what can we do?

Florida apparently put in a law recently to require drug testing for welfare recipients (granted, I am quoting from the today show) and it has COST them $45,000, not saved them money.
 
Food stamps should probably be scrapped entirely. If you want to help people expand unemployment. That way you help people who deserve help.

I could get on board with that.

Food stamps don't need to be necessarily cut, but they need to stop giving them in the form of EBT cards that can be used for cigareets, liquor, lobster, lottery tickets, jewelry, designer clothes, etc. The fraud level is just way out of control.

This seems more feasible however.
 
You speak of morals but want to let kids starve? It is a real question, I'm not trying to inflame. It is simply untenable to let people starve to death in a rich society as the US is (disgustingly wealthy, from a historical standpoint).

I would propose regulating having children. Just like for example Obamacare mandates the purchase of health insurance because not purchasing imposes costs on others.

OK, so what about those already around? The devil is in the details. And what about the other parents? none of us want to see a crack head sh*t out five kids from different parents, but what can we do?

It is likely necessary to phase things in.

Lots of things can be done to prevent a crack head from sh*ting out 5 kids. Imagine if a guy robbed 5 banks? What would you do? Quite frankly popping out 5 kids you cannot afford is probably more damaging to society than robbing a bank.
 
People against cuts always find some excuse not to cut. Why? because thers always someone depending on a handout.
Quite true, every handout program has its own built-in advocacy group. Still, I see a difference in magnitude between people who otherwise would be dependent on soup kitchens and food banks, and people whose mega-banks would be forced into re-organizational bankruptcy or whose agra-businesses would realize less growth in value.

You do not "deserve" to be fed by others simply for being born in America. That is exactly the opposite of deserve.
Granted, so I'll rephrase and state that every American with a decent lifestyle has a charitable obligation to G-d to give charity to our less fortunate neighbors and that churches and civic groups, while much better suited to get someone back on their feet, are unable to support a modern lifestyle for all the needy. So although philosophically I much prefer that charity be non-governmental, I recognize that government can provide it with more stability.

The last time taxes were actually raised was early in the Clinton years, rendering your argument dishonest.

Current Repub murmurings aren't about raising taxes on the rich, anyway, but about raising taxes on everybody else.

They call for sacrifice from everybody else, one way or another, yet exclude those at the top, those best able to make sacrifice painlessly.
And the last time government spending actually went down was, um . . .

Someone help a brother out here, has government spending EVER gone down since the end of World War II? The Republican Congress under President Clinton balanced the budget by cutting the rate of government's growth and using excess Social Security receipts, not by spending less money year to year. (Although from the screams of draconian cuts one might be excused for ignorance.)
 
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