Republicans Give NASA a Huge Budget Increase

[piasabird]

China also is using space technology. They have been aggressive lately toward other countries trying to expand their military might outside of their borders.

 

[bradly1101]

proving life existed off the Earth would likely be one of the most important discoveries in human history

Why? How? If we found that out tomorrow what would change (other than the media blitz)? We recently found out that small amounts of water on Mars melt and flow a little. So what? Yes it means that a super expensive, dangerous trip to Mars could find possibly drinkable water, but wasn't that true when we discovered ice there decades ago?

Until there's an effective radiation shield no one is going to last long enough up there anyway. Heck, even long term airline pilots experience vision trouble because of the thinner atmosphere allowing more hits from cosmic rays.

How does any of this change lives other than for the worse? Space flight may inspire more scientists, but if those scientists try to push us more into space it will only exacerbate the problem.

I'll tell you how $18B could really change lives; buy school books for children in Africa.

Where do you think the technology and know how for communication, navigation, and weather satellites came from?

Originally from unmanned tests.

 

[Vic]

Thanks, this really shows they aren't "anti-science"!

They're not doing it for the science. Central Florida is a GOP stronghold.

 

[UglyCasanova]

I'll tell you how $18B could really change lives; buy school books for children in Africa.

Wouldn't do a damned thing unfortunately. Not to sound crass but kids in Africa don't really need much more than a rudimentary education (making a blanket statement here), what they need is a safe and stable political system to grow up in. Sub Saharran countries for the most part aren't going to enter the first world designing microchips, the need to follow China's route and compete on low wages. It'll take time but that's the only route (sans striking it rich in oil). India tried to jump the gun and focus on tech, but outside of a few clusters the rest of the country hasn't made nearly the progress China has.

 

[DrPizza]

Most other well known government agencies have a clear purpose that one can point to when making an argument for their existence. Catching criminals, building roads, bombing goat-fuckers, managing disease, collecting tax, etc.

NASA does neat science-y stuff in space! Russians and Tang! Military needs aside, it just isn't clear what the problem is that they are trying to solve or what the end goal is. I like rockets and rovers as much as the next guy but it seems NASA isn't accomplishing much beyond amusements and curiosities and I'm not excited by a budget increase.

I've PM'd back and forth with Paratus on a couple of occasions. If you look at my posts from a few years ago, you'll see I was in favor of doubling NASA's budget, while eliminating manned missions at the same time. My stance on that has changed - I've realized that such missions - which imho are more for the sake of doing it rather than the scientific value of such missions - are tremendously important for inspiring students of today to go into STEM fields. THESE are the students who in the future are going to be the ones to solve at least some problems that your and my generation hasn't been able to resolve. I've met some of these students - in fact, one of them will be working at JPL on the Europa mission. Discovering life elsewhere would be one of mankind's greatest discoveries in the last several millenia.

Kind of surprising given Cruz was throwing a tantrum about Nasa's Climate Change research not too long ago.

Thanks, this really shows they aren't "anti-science"!

Republicans are anti-science when it helps them win votes. E.g., stem cell research, climate change, and, uhhhh, omg, they're using baby parts for research! (Research done with baby parts that would otherwise be tossed in the garbage, and research with goals to cure diseases so that babies in the future don't have to suffer). But, that's about it. Seems they've figured out that profits in the future are a result of scientific advances today.

 

[UglyCasanova]

I was in favor of doubling NASA's budget, while eliminating manned missions at the same time.

I agree with this. I also agree that manned space flights inspire students, but so did the unmanned Pluto flyby. We could get so much more actual science done by not having to keep a human alive at the same time.

And I'm also in favour of giving NASA the resources to keep exploring propulsion systems etc to one day maybe make manned space flight make sense.

 

[Zorba]

I agree with this. I also agree that manned space flights inspire students, but so did the unmanned Pluto flyby. We could get so much more actual science done by not having to keep a human alive at the same time.

And I'm also in favour of giving NASA the resources to keep exploring propulsion systems etc to one day maybe make manned space flight make sense.

You do get all of the technology for how to keep people alive, though. Which could have many applications here on earth. Especially lightweight radiation shielding.

 

[Zorba]

Why? How? If we found that out tomorrow what would change (other than the media blitz)? We recently found out that small amounts of water on Mars melt and flow a little. So what? Yes it means that a super expensive, dangerous trip to Mars could find possibly drinkable water, but wasn't that true when we discovered ice there decades ago?

Just the massive impact on religion and beliefs would by itself would have huge ramifications. Not to mention the pure science it would produce and validate.

How does any of this change lives other than for the worse? Space flight may inspire more scientists, but if those scientists try to push us more into space it will only exacerbate the problem.

So I guess you don't think Aerospace and Mechanical engineers do anything for society except work for NASA and push for more NASA budget? Not to mention, all the other scientists and engineers.

I'll tell you how $18B could really change lives; buy school books for children in Africa.

Not including what the government gave to charity, welfare, foreign support: "Americans gave $358.38 billion in 2014." So do you really think another 18B would really solves the world's issues, while giving up a lot of pure and practical research? Including climate research, and research into more efficient aircraft, etc?

Originally from unmanned tests.

Originally from NASA and other space agencies, you mean? If you cut space, you cut all of that research, including unmanned missions.

 

[bradly1101]

Just the massive impact on religion and beliefs would by itself would have huge ramifications. Not to mention the pure science it would produce and validate.



So I guess you don't think Aerospace and Mechanical engineers do anything for society except work for NASA and push for more NASA budget? Not to mention, all the other scientists and engineers.



Not including what the government gave to charity, welfare, foreign support: "Americans gave $358.38 billion in 2014." So do you really think another 18B would really solves the world's issues, while giving up a lot of pure and practical research? Including climate research, and research into more efficient aircraft, etc?



Originally from NASA and other space agencies, you mean? If you cut space, you cut all of that research, including unmanned missions.

Like I said I'm all for our satellite helpers (who wants to pull out a map anymore?), but spending money on manned missions is a waste I believe.

What happened in the late fifties/early sixties? Russia threatened that most precious, fictitious, and conceited belief of "American exceptionalism." So what did Kennedy do? He pulled out America's metaphorical, collective d*ck, and declared that we were going to put a man on the moon faster than any other country (as if everyone was dying to plant their flag there). And what did we get for all those dollars spent? Oh yeah, we now know how far you can hit a golf ball in low gravity, and of course there was no other way to figure that out , but at least we got to leave a bunch of trash up there. I know we learned some things about propulsion during Appolo, but that could have been accomplished with unmanned flights without the loss of a crew (the same goes for two crews of the space shuttle).

Just like I have no doubt that this country will elect a TV star over someone with experience, I have no doubt that we will put a man on Mars. But why? We know what it looks like, even in 3D, and we've analyzed Martian samples. Oh yeah, we have no idea how far a golf ball will fly there .

Exploration and overpopulation have totally screwed up the planet we currently occupy. Do we really want to do that to other worlds? Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should.

As my brother's girlfriend always says, "Boys and their toys..."

 

[DrPizza]

Like I said I'm all for our satellite helpers (who wants to pull out a map anymore?), but spending money on manned missions is a waste I believe.

What happened in the late fifties/early sixties? Russia threatened that most precious, fictitious, and conceited belief of "American exceptionalism." So what did Kennedy do? He pulled out America's metaphorical, collective d*ck, and declared that we were going to put a man on the moon faster than any other country (as if everyone was dying to plant their flag there). And what did we get for all those dollars spent? Oh yeah, we now know how far you can hit a golf ball in low gravity, and of course there was no other way to figure that out , but at least we got to leave a bunch of trash up there. I know we learned some things about propulsion during Appolo, but that could have been accomplished with unmanned flights without the loss of a crew (the same goes for two crews of the space shuttle).

Just like I have no doubt that this country will elect a TV star over someone with experience, I have no doubt that we will put a man on Mars. But why? We know what it looks like, even in 3D, and we've analyzed Martian samples. Oh yeah, we have no idea how far a golf ball will fly there .

Exploration and overpopulation have totally screwed up the planet we currently occupy. Do we really want to do that to other worlds? Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should.

As my brother's girlfriend always says, "Boys and their toys..."

Look at our television programming. The Learning Channel, Science Channel, etc. - garbage. Reality television shows galore. If there's anything we need, it's to inspire more students to reach a new level.

 

[Paratus]

I've PM'd back and forth with Paratus on a couple of occasions. If you look at my posts from a few years ago, you'll see I was in favor of doubling NASA's budget, while eliminating manned missions at the same time. My stance on that has changed - I've realized that such missions - which imho are more for the sake of doing it rather than the scientific value of such missions - are tremendously important for inspiring students of today to go into STEM fields. THESE are the students who in the future are going to be the ones to solve at least some problems that your and my generation hasn't been able to resolve. I've met some of these students - in fact, one of them will be working at JPL on the Europa mission. Discovering life elsewhere would be one of mankind's greatest discoveries in the last several millenia.




Republicans are anti-science when it helps them win votes. E.g., stem cell research, climate change, and, uhhhh, omg, they're using baby parts for research! (Research done with baby parts that would otherwise be tossed in the garbage, and research with goals to cure diseases so that babies in the future don't have to suffer). But, that's about it. Seems they've figured out that profits in the future are a result of scientific advances today.

Aw shucks. :wub:

 

[mysticjbyrd]

Look at our television programming. The Learning Channel, Science Channel, etc. - garbage. Reality television shows galore. If there's anything we need, it's to inspire more students to reach a new level.

The science channel isn't that bad, but it's nowhere near as good as it used to be.

The learning channel has been shit ever since that ER show came out like twenty years ago.

What kid was inspired by a tv program? We need to revolutionize the education system in the US.

 

[Jeff7]

Huh. Well.....good. :thumbsup:

I've PM'd back and forth with Paratus on a couple of occasions. If you look at my posts from a few years ago, you'll see I was in favor of doubling NASA's budget, while eliminating manned missions at the same time. My stance on that has changed - I've realized that such missions - which imho are more for the sake of doing it rather than the scientific value of such missions - are tremendously important for inspiring students of today to go into STEM fields. THESE are the students who in the future are going to be the ones to solve at least some problems that your and my generation hasn't been able to resolve. I've met some of these students - in fact, one of them will be working at JPL on the Europa mission.


...

And of course not all of these people will wind up working for NASA. The excess of skilled workers will spill over into other sectors of the job market.

Discovering life elsewhere would be one of mankind's greatest discoveries in the last several millennia.

Or ever.

Just the massive impact on religion and beliefs would by itself would have huge ramifications. Not to mention the pure science it would produce and validate.

Yes, this. Discovering life elsewhere would be profound. We suspect it exists, but there's been no evidence thus far, owing primarily to the fact of the extreme isolation of vast volumes of vacuum. If hard evidence is found that life developed elsewhere in the Solar System, it suddenly becomes even more likely that it developed elsewhere in the galaxy, and in the universe. We're finding that planetary systems are a normal result of the formation of a star, just the clumped-up orbiting leftovers that didn't get swept into the star itself. Even if a small portion of those contain life, there are still many stars out there.

Like I said I'm all for our satellite helpers (who wants to pull out a map anymore?), but spending money on manned missions is a waste I believe.

What happened in the late fifties/early sixties? Russia threatened that most precious, fictitious, and conceited belief of "American exceptionalism." So what did Kennedy do? He pulled out America's metaphorical, collective d*ck, and declared that we were going to put a man on the moon faster than any other country (as if everyone was dying to plant their flag there). And what did we get for all those dollars spent? Oh yeah, we now know how far you can hit a golf ball in low gravity, and of course there was no other way to figure that out , but at least we got to leave a bunch of trash up there.
...

They also left various instruments there, obtained samples of the surface to help determine the Moon's chemical makeup, effectively served as a PR campaign to inspire a lot of people to get into the sciences, and helped push along studying the Moon in general. No, the primary mission wasn't to hit a golf ball, believe it or not.
A "bunch" of trash? So maybe 0.000000000000000012% of the Moon's surface has discarded junk on it now. The horror.
Scientific exploration isn't always done with a specific purpose in mind anyway. Hans Christian Oersted wasn't trying to build a TV or electric motor when he happened upon electromagnetism. Alessandro Volta wasn't trying to power a Roomba when he figured out how to make a simplistic battery. Marie Curie wasn't making plans for a fission reactor when she was learning about radioactivity. Einstein didn't envision GPS satellites when he was working out the math and theory behind general and special relativity, which GPS satellites need to account for in order to work properly. LEDs were discovered by accident, twice. The first time, the discoverer went off to war not long after and died in action.

Scientific exploration adds tools to the box that humanity can draw on to build new things. Some tools won't ever get used. Others can revolutionize an entire civilization.

I know we learned some things about propulsion during Appolo, but that could have been accomplished with unmanned flights without the loss of a crew (the same goes for two crews of the space shuttle).

And yet people still are very much ready to go on space flights. If you had a Mars mission that was advertised from the start as a one-way trip, you would still have a very long list of people eager to go.



It was said in ST:TNG, and fiction often mirrors reality:

"I understand what you've done here, Q, but I think the lesson could've been learned without the loss of eighteen members of my crew."

"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid."

 

[werepossum]

Like I said I'm all for our satellite helpers (who wants to pull out a map anymore?), but spending money on manned missions is a waste I believe.

What happened in the late fifties/early sixties? Russia threatened that most precious, fictitious, and conceited belief of "American exceptionalism." So what did Kennedy do? He pulled out America's metaphorical, collective d*ck, and declared that we were going to put a man on the moon faster than any other country (as if everyone was dying to plant their flag there). And what did we get for all those dollars spent? Oh yeah, we now know how far you can hit a golf ball in low gravity, and of course there was no other way to figure that out , but at least we got to leave a bunch of trash up there. I know we learned some things about propulsion during Appolo, but that could have been accomplished with unmanned flights without the loss of a crew (the same goes for two crews of the space shuttle).

Just like I have no doubt that this country will elect a TV star over someone with experience, I have no doubt that we will put a man on Mars. But why? We know what it looks like, even in 3D, and we've analyzed Martian samples. Oh yeah, we have no idea how far a golf ball will fly there .

Exploration and overpopulation have totally screwed up the planet we currently occupy. Do we really want to do that to other worlds? Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should.

As my brother's girlfriend always says, "Boys and their toys..."

This is the basis of all those bizarre cults in sci-fi novels who aren't believable because they are trying to sabotage space flights. It's the "man as virus" theme, and unfortunately there are millions of people who believe it. Most of them are Western and especially American; people who have never experienced the benefits of progress for some reason never seem to get insane opposing progress.

 

[fskimospy]

This is the basis of all those bizarre cults in sci-fi novels who aren't believable because they are trying to sabotage space flights. It's the "man as virus" theme, and unfortunately there are millions of people who believe it. Most of them are Western and especially American; people who have never experienced the benefits of progress for some reason never seem to get insane opposing progress.

Counterpoint: ISIS, Amish, etc, etc.

 

[werepossum]

Counterpoint: ISIS, Amish, etc, etc.

The Amish I'll grant you. ISIS though is not counter-progress, ISIS is only counter-progress-that-doesn't-help-murder-non-Muslims. ISIS would be thrilled to have manned space flights as long as they could rain down fiery death in the name of Muhammad, peace be on him.

 

[Guurn]

Just the massive impact on religion and beliefs would by itself would have huge ramifications.

It will have zero impact on religions other than to embolden a few. I had this discussion with a born again about 30 years ago. His response was that if we find intelligent life on other planets Jesus will have died for their sins as well.

 

[Rakehellion]

Is the funding for space exploration or for testing weapons? I hope its not just a way to test out military tech but use NASA as a cover to do the research. Los Alamos lab was well known for doing that type of thing.

I'm pretty sure it's for new missiles. Republicans don't like science.

 

[Zorba]

It will have zero impact on religions other than to embolden a few. I had this discussion with a born again about 30 years ago. His response was that if we find intelligent life on other planets Jesus will have died for their sins as well.

Yeah, that is what one guys says when it is a hypothetical. Look at the impact the theory of evolution, or the discover of the fossil record. My religious in-laws couldn't even look at the fossils at the Smithsonian after I told them they were real and not models. They could not reconcile the fossils with their religious beliefs.

 

[piasabird]

Lately NASA has been working on other kinds of propulsion systems for space. They recently mapped the moon with a pair of micro satellites. The key barrier for real space travel is the sheer distance between planets or between solar systems and the vastness of just the Milky Way, which is one galaxy among possibly millions of galaxies.

The vastness of space is being looked at by one Hubble Telescope launched into space by NASA. The further in distance that we can see the more it is like a time machine to see our own past.

 

[werepossum]

I'm pretty sure it's for new missiles. Republicans don't like science.

More science in missiles than in feeding the lazy.

 

[Grooveriding]

It will have zero impact on religions other than to embolden a few. I had this discussion with a born again about 30 years ago. His response was that if we find intelligent life on other planets Jesus will have died for their sins as well.

This is indeed sadly true. The Abrahamic god has been proven as untrue for a long while now and there are still no shortage of Jews, Muslims and Christians out there. Another nail in the coffin of these faith's validity will just be an addition to a coffin already sealed.

Religious mythology being put to bed is going to take more of what we're seeing now; young people properly educated in schools with all the facts at hand turning away from nonsense. And this still is not going to do all the job in the face of young people indoctrinated with messages of fear about being burnt for eternity or the empty promise of being able to escape the inevitable death all living things have waiting for them. It's probably going to be a few centuries until religion is fully relegated to just the fringe whack jobs where it belongs.

I don't see many pursuits as valuable as the exploration of space. Furthering medical science is one, but we are running into the issue of that having lead to people living much longer lives and that being part of what has lead to the Earth being overpopulated with the resources available on it. An interesting catch-22. Unfortunately real dedicated space exploration appears to require a utopia of a world society where there are no resources being pushed into expensive negative pursuits, which we don't have. It's so expensive that trying to justify the costs on something that does not necessarily generate a return, or a return that is so far off, is a hard pill to swallow for a lot of people.

A lot of people also just are not interested in the wonders beyond the horizon and are more focused on the here and now. Statistically, given the size of the universe, it's a much, much, much safer claim to say that the universe is full of life, including other intelligent life. Just finding some evidence of even simple life, past or present, would do great things for that understanding.

 

[Wreckem]

I was at Kennedy Space Center on Sunday.

They are almost done with the SLS launch pad site. SLS Block 2, the one that can carry the habitat isn't slated until late 2020s/early 2030s but its nice to see NASA getting some additional coin. They will need it to beat SpaceX to deep space exploration.

 

[Jeff7]

Lately NASA has been working on other kinds of propulsion systems for space. They recently mapped the moon with a pair of micro satellites. The key barrier for real space travel is the sheer distance between planets or between solar systems and the vastness of just the Milky Way, which is one galaxy among possibly millions of galaxies.

The vastness of space is being looked at by one Hubble Telescope launched into space by NASA. The further in distance that we can see the more it is like a time machine to see our own past.

Way way more than millions.



Distance between things: Looking at the Universe by volume, matter is an unbelievably tiny rounding error.

 

[TheSlamma]

They're not doing it for the science. Central Florida is a GOP stronghold.

I'm happy with my NASA inventions (No not just Tang!). If this means the potential for more then bring it on.