Republicans can pick up at most 18 more Senate seats in November 2010

[dullard]

If I go get a payday loan did I generate a surplus?

No, but you didn't generate a drop in your net worth either (yet). You just are looking at half of the picture. Since I can't seem to get that through to you, I'll stop after this post.

Why exactly are you statig a figure in January? The government's fiscal year is from October 1st through September 30th. All government and budgetary activities are based on that fiscal year so it is necessary to do debt comparisons using that same fiscal year.

I happen to be sophisticated enough to know that you don't need to use fiscal years to know if money is flowing in or out. I can give you many 365 day periods where any measure of debt went down. That is the definition of a surplus.

The fact that I borrowed it from myself has absolutely no relevance to the fact that it must be paid back.

But it does mean that you are double counting the debt.

When you pay it off, are you creating a surplus (by spending less) and then another surplus by paying yourself? Double counting is silly in my opinion. But I'm done for this thread.

Thanks for those who at least tried to listen, even if we can't agree.

 

[werepossum]

I think a better analogy for government would be that a friend gives you $500 to pay his mortgage for him, your own mortgage is due, you have $70 in your pocket because you just got paid for the day, and you have no money in your wallet because you've been spending like a drunken sailor for decades. So you take $50 out of your friend's mortgage envelope before giving it to the bank, borrow another $500 to pay your own mortgage, buy your $100 item, and declare you have a $20 surplus, so you order cable. You still have your $20, but now you owe an additional $500, you have a recurring $50 cable bill coming due at the end of the month and your friend has a rude surprise coming for trusting you. And you repeat this every month, so that your friend gets progressively farther behind. You promise to pay him back, of course - but how can you, when you're already spending way more than you make without paying him back? But heh, as long as you can keep dipping into your friend's envelope and someone will lend you money, you're okay.

 

[Darwin333]

But it does mean that you are double counting the debt.

When you pay it off, are you creating a surplus (by spending less) and then another surplus by paying yourself? Double counting is silly in my opinion. But I'm done for this thread.

Thanks for those who at least tried to listen, even if we can't agree.

How am I double counting the debt? Using your example, if I borrow $30 from a friend and $70 from money that was intended to pay my rent I owe a grand total of $100 that I MUST payback. The difference is if I don't pay my friend I might lose a friend if I don't pay myself I might lose my shelter. Personally, I would much prefer to owe the friend.

A better example might be, if I borrow $100 from my 401K to pay my $70 light bill does that mean I have a $30 surplus?

Again, this debate really isn't important in the scheme of things. The reality of the here and now and where we are going is and the way our debt is structured puts us in a serious bind. Maybe we get insanely lucky and our interest rates stay historically low for the next few decades but I doubt many people here would bet the farm on that. If they do go up to historically reasonable levels we are screwed.