Report: Israel adds nukes to subs
- Thread starter ConantheBarbarian
- Start date
The day the UN starts looking at Israel's supposed nuclear arsenal is the day Israel unjustly/illegaly invades her neighbors.
Well, when israel starts threatening us or is hostile towards our policy in the region, I would have no problem with turning the Jewish state into a glass parking lot. But she's not. We helped create her and she's been a strong ally the past 50 years. Furthermore, she has a deep-water port at Caesaria that can handle a battlegroup. Not only that, she's within striking range if the arabs flip.
So instead of brokering peace in the middle east we will continue to play into the hands of terrorists who can point to Israel once again and tell their followers the US favors Israel to the detriment of Arab nations.
So instead of playing "into the hands of terrorists" we should appease them like our european counterparts, right? Do you understand the history of appeasement? That's right, it doesn't work. And by the way, no one should deal with terrorists. They should all be destroyed. A legitimate representative, however, is another story.
They've been trying for peace forr over a decade, and it's failed WITHOUT the subs. What makes you think things were going to change any time soon?
I never said we should work with terrorists or appease them. The point of my post was we've been heavily favoring one side in the middle east to the detriment of our relations with the other side. This is like tilling the soil for terrorists. Muslim nations view America's blatant appeasement of Israel as proof positive of a USA/Israel cabal against them.
And now we can't even control the monster we've created. Israel does as she pleases while the Bush administration tries to save face.
Does anyone besides me remember Bush stating his mideast policy in the first few months after his selection?
He said something along these lines. Let Israel and her neighbors stratghten out their differences then the US would enter the process.
Bush's plan hasn't worked very well, has it? Israel's idea of straightening out its differences with her neighbors under the right wing Likud Party is destroy them all. Genocide.
And Arabs around the globe are taking note.
And people wonder why they hate the USA.
The problem with your opinion is that it looks as if you've been looking at the situation after the Cold War ended. As I've stated earlier, Israel and the US have been strong allies for the past 50 years. In fact, for the first decade after she was created, successive US Administrations were pro-arab. France was Israel's primary military seller. We were even against Israel when she sided with the british and french when all three went on their excursion in the Suez Canal. That all changed when Kennedy came to power. He was very pro-israel and we became their primary military contractor. Keep in mind, during all this, the arabs were still allied with the Soviet Union. However, when the soviet empire fell, they had no superpower to call their own and started complaining that the US was an unfair broker in the conflict. Can you believe that? They lose their main partner and start complaining that we are not being impartial? Were they or the Soviets being impartial during the Cold War? Give me a phucking break.
The arabs need to realize that terrorism will never work. They need to disband the terror nexus withing their countries, liberalize their economies, liberalize their politics, and enter the family of nations.
BTW, please make intelligent posts or I will stop responding.
the reason there will never be any peace in the middle east:
on May 14th, 1948 israel became a nation , there was no west bank controversy. no yassar arafat or ariel sharon.
on May 15th it was invaded by jordan, syrai, egypt, lebanon, and iraq. because they did not want a jewish nation in the middle east. 1% of middle eastern land seems to be too much for the jews to have.
"The Jews won their war of independence with minimal help from the West. In fact, they won despite efforts to undermine their military strength. As noted earlier, the United States vigorously supported the partition resolution, but the State Department didn't want to provide the Jews with the means to defend themselves. "Otherwise," Undersecretary of State Robert Lovett argued, "the Arabs might use arms of U.S. origin against Jews, or Jews might use them against Arabs." Consequently, on December 5, 1947, the U.S. imposed an arms embargo on the entire region...The Arabs had no difficulty obtaining all the arms they needed. In fact, Jordan's Arab Legion was armed and trained by the British and led by a British officer. At the end of 1948 and the beginning of 1949, British R.A.F. planes flew with Egyptian squadrons over the Israel-Egypt border. On January 7, 1949, Israeli planes shot down four of the British aircraft...The Jews, on the other hand, were forced to smuggle weapons, principally from Czechoslovakia. When Israel declared its independence in May 1948, the army did not have a single cannon or tank. Its air force consisted of nine obsolete planes. On the eve of the war, Chief of Operations Yigal Yadin told Ben-Gurion, 'The best we can tell you is that we have a 50-50 chance.'" from the complete idiot's guide to the middle east conflict
on May 14th, 1948 israel became a nation , there was no west bank controversy. no yassar arafat or ariel sharon.
on May 15th it was invaded by jordan, syrai, egypt, lebanon, and iraq. because they did not want a jewish nation in the middle east. 1% of middle eastern land seems to be too much for the jews to have.
"The Jews won their war of independence with minimal help from the West. In fact, they won despite efforts to undermine their military strength. As noted earlier, the United States vigorously supported the partition resolution, but the State Department didn't want to provide the Jews with the means to defend themselves. "Otherwise," Undersecretary of State Robert Lovett argued, "the Arabs might use arms of U.S. origin against Jews, or Jews might use them against Arabs." Consequently, on December 5, 1947, the U.S. imposed an arms embargo on the entire region...The Arabs had no difficulty obtaining all the arms they needed. In fact, Jordan's Arab Legion was armed and trained by the British and led by a British officer. At the end of 1948 and the beginning of 1949, British R.A.F. planes flew with Egyptian squadrons over the Israel-Egypt border. On January 7, 1949, Israeli planes shot down four of the British aircraft...The Jews, on the other hand, were forced to smuggle weapons, principally from Czechoslovakia. When Israel declared its independence in May 1948, the army did not have a single cannon or tank. Its air force consisted of nine obsolete planes. On the eve of the war, Chief of Operations Yigal Yadin told Ben-Gurion, 'The best we can tell you is that we have a 50-50 chance.'" from the complete idiot's guide to the middle east conflict
The subs are likely a reaction to Iran's nuclear program. Basicly Israel wants to at least ensure a MAD situation and show Iran it can't hope to eliminate Israel's nuclear arsenal with a first nuclear strike.
In my opinion, Israel has been flauting international law for too long, because of the unquestioned support by US. This has created a sense of injustice in many peoples eyes, not only the Arabs, but the rest of the world.
There are some practices by Israel, such as collective punishment, torture, military strikes in highly populated areas, and of course the build up of illegal settlements. While some of these may argued as justified by some, the US does not, and should not blindly support everything they do, and on top give them 3 billion dollars a year in foreign aid to build and buy weapons. As someone suggested the cold war is over. Why does Israel need nuclear submarines and grossly disproportionate amount of foreign aid?
There are some practices by Israel, such as collective punishment, torture, military strikes in highly populated areas, and of course the build up of illegal settlements. While some of these may argued as justified by some, the US does not, and should not blindly support everything they do, and on top give them 3 billion dollars a year in foreign aid to build and buy weapons. As someone suggested the cold war is over. Why does Israel need nuclear submarines and grossly disproportionate amount of foreign aid?
That looks like pro-Israel propaganda to me, compare it with the following from this pro-Israel site:
"The Jews won their war of independence with minimal help from the West. In fact, they won despite efforts to undermine their military strength.
Although the United States vigorously supported the partition resolution, the State Department did not want to provide the Jews with the means to defend themselves. "Otherwise," Undersecretary of State Robert Lovett argued, "the Arabs might use arms of U.S. origin against Jews, or Jews might use them against Arabs."14 Consequently, on December 5, 1947, the U.S. imposed an arms embargo on the region.
Many in the State Department saw the embargo as yet another means of obstructing partition. President Truman nevertheless went along with it hoping it would be a means of averting bloodshed. This was naive given Britain's rejection of Lovett's request to suspend weapons shipments to the Arabs and subsequent agreements to provide additional arms to Iraq and Transjordan.15
The Arabs had no difficulty obtaining all the arms they needed. In fact, Jordan's Arab Legion was armed and trained by the British, and led by a British officer. At the end of 1948 and beginning of 1949, British RAF planes flew with Egyptian squadrons over the Israel-Egypt border. On January 7, 1949, Israeli planes shot down four of the British aircraft.16
The Jews, on the other hand, were forced to smuggle weapons, principally from Czechoslovakia. When Israel declared its independence in May 1948, the army did not have a single cannon or tank. Its air force consisted of nine obsolete planes. Although the Haganah had 60,000 trained fighters, only 18,900 were fully mobilized, armed and prepared for war.17 On the eve of the war, chief of operations Yigael Yadin told David Ben-Gurion: "The best we can tell you is that we have a 5050 chance."
Here is of another view what happened:
"The 1948 War
Myth
The roots of the 1948 war go as far back as the first recognition on the part of the Palestinians that the Zionists wished to establish a Jewish state on their land. In late 1947 the United Nations proposed that Palestine be divided into a Palestinian Arab state and a Jewish state. The UN Partition Plan recommended that 55 percent of Palestine, and the most fertile region, be given to the Jewish settlers who compromised 30 percent of the population. The remaining 45 percent of Palestine was to comprise a home for the other 70 percent of the population who were Palestinians. The Palestinians rejected the plan because it was unfair. Israel and its supporters claim that the Arabs first attacked in Janurary 1948 and then invaded Israel in May 1948.
Fact
The truth is that by May 1948 Zionist forces had already invaded and occupied large parts of the land which had been allocated to the Palestinians by the UN Partition Plan. In January 1948 Israel did not yet exist.
The evidence that Israel started the 1948 war comes from Zionist sources. The History of the Palmach which was released in portions in the 1950s (and in full in 1972) details the efforts made to attack the Palestinian Arabs and secure more territory than alloted to the Jewish state by the UN Partition Plan (Kibbutz Menchad Archive, Palmach Archive, Efal, Israel). Already, Zionist forces were implementing their "Plan Dalet" to "control the area given to us [the Zionists] by the U.N. in addition to areas occupied by Arabs which were outside these borders and the setting up of forces to counter the possible invasion of Arab armies after May 15" (Qurvot 1948, p. 16, which covers the operations of Haganah and Palmach, see also Ha Sepher Ha Palmach, The Book of Palmach).
1. Operation Nachson, 1 April 1948
2. Operation Harel, 15 April 1948
3. Operation Misparayim, 21 April 1948
4. Operation Chametz, 27 April 1948
5. Operation Jevuss, 27 April 1948
6. Operation Yiftach, 28 April 1948
7. Operation Matateh, 3 May 1948
8. Operation Maccabi, 7 May 1948
9. Operation Gideon, 11 May 1948
10. Operation Barak, 12 May 1948
11. Operation Ben Ami, 14 May 1948
12. Operation Pitchfork, 14 May 1948
13. Operation Schfifon, 14 May 1948
The operations 1-8 indicate operations carried out before the entry of the Arab forces inside the areas allotted by the UN to the Arab state. It has to be noted that of thirteen specific full-scale operations under Plan Dalet eight were carried out outside the area "given" by the UN to the Zionists.
Following is a list drawn from the New York Times of the major military operations the Zionists mounted before the British evacuated Palestine and before the Arab forces entered Palestine:
* Qazaza (21 Dec. 1947)
* Sa'sa (16 Feb. 1948)
* Haifa (21 Feb. 1948)
* Salameh (1 March 1948)
* Biyar Adas (6 March 1948)
* Qana (13 March 1948)
* Qastal (4 April 1948)
* Deir Yassin (9 April 1948)
* Lajjun (15 April 1948)
* Saris (17 April 1948)
* Tiberias (20 April 1948)
* Haifa (22 April 1948)
* Jerusalem (25 April 1948)
* Jaffa (26 April 1948)
* Acre (27 April 1948)
* Jerusalem (1 May 1948)
* Safad (7 May 1948)
* Beisan (9 May 1948).
David Ben-Gurion confirms this in an address delivered to American Zionists in Jerusalem on 3 September 1950:
"Until the British left, no Jewish settlement, however remote, was entered or seized by the Arabs, while the Haganah, under severe and frequent attack, captured many Arab positions and liberated Tiberias and Haifa, Jaffa and Safad" (Ben-Gurion, Rebirth and Destiny of Israel (N.Y.: Philosophical Library, 1954, p. 530).
Although late PM Ben-Gurion speaks of "liberating" Jaffa it was alloted to the Palestinians by the UN Partition Plan.
Late PM Menachem Begin adds: "In the months preceding the Arab invasion, and while the five Arab states were conducting preparations, we continued to make sallies into Arab territory. The conquest of Jaffa stands out as an event of first-rate importance in the struggle for Hebrew independence early in May, on the eve [that is, before the alleged Arab invasion] of the invasion by the five Arab states" (Menachem Begin, The Revolt, Nash, 1972, p. 348)
On 12 December 1948 David Ben Gurion confirmed the fact that the Zionists started the war in 1948: "As April began, our War of Independence swung decisively from defense to attack. Operation 'Nachson'...was launched with the capture of Arab Hulda near where we stand today and of Deir Muheisin and culminated in the storming of Qastel, the great hill fortress near Jerusalem" (Ben Gurion, Rebirth and Destiny of Israel (N.Y.: Philosophical Library, 1954, p. 106).
Israeli historians have themselves refuted the claim that the Arabs started the 1948 war. Benny Morris uncovered a report from the Israeli Defense Force Intelligence Branch (30 June 1948) that shows a deliberate Israeli policy to attack the Arabs should they resist and expel the Palestinians (Benny Morris, "The Causes and Character of the Arab Exodus from Palestine: the Israel Defense Forces Intelligence Branch Analysis of June 1948", Middle Eastern Studies, XXII, January 1986, pp. 5-19).
Conclusion
In sum, it is not true that the Arabs "invaded Israel" in 1948. First, Israel did not exist at the time of the alleged invasion as an established state with recognised bounderies. When the Zionist leaders established Israel on 15 May 1948 they purposely declined to declare the bounderies of the new state in order to allow for future expansion.
Secondly, the only territory to which the new state of Israel had even a remote claim was that alloted to the Jewish state by the UN Partition Plan. But the Zionists had already attacked areas that were alloted to the Palestinian Arab state.
Thirdly, those areas which the Arab states purportedly "invaded" were, in fact, exclusively areas alloted to the Palestinian Arab state proposed by the UN Partition Plan. The so-called Arab invasion was a defensive attempt to hold on to the areas alloted by the Partition Plan for the Palestinian state.
Finally, the commander of Jordan's Arab Legion, was under orders not to enter the areas alloted to the Jewish state (Sir John Bagot Glubb, "The Battle for Jerusalem", Middle East International, May 1973).
I believe we're talking about subs with nukes rather than nuclear powered. Its because Israel's threat has never really come from the USSR, but neighboring countries. If Iran has nuclear weapons, and Syria may already have VX tipped missiles aimed at Israel, Israel wants to maintain a nuclear deterence capability to ensure the its neighbors don't use WMD on Israel. Israel very much is in a situation similar to the US facing off against the USSR during the gold war, so their nuclear weapon capability can be very much justified on that fact. If Iran is likely to have nukes soon, how can you argue that Israel has no need or reason to have their own capability?
^
That was funny
It's hard to rant like a lunatic and make intelligent posts at the same time..."Terrorism will never work". Have you ever heard of the Haganah, Irgon and Stern? Israel's history is largely a history of terrorism. Terrorism worked for the Israeli's. It is not easy for the Palestinians to disband their terrororganizations, who where created much later than their Israeli predecessors, and can be seen as counterterrororganizations. I agree that the Arabs should stop with the terror. But Israel also needs to comply with the UN resolutions.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,862
- 84
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worry about israel with nukes, oh please. they are a doomday defense weapon for them. they are few against the zealous hoards that surround them. it only takes one crackpot regiem in the arab countries to go nutz and decide its worthwhile to sacrifice his nation to nuke the jews, after all, there are 1 billion mulsims, a few maytres is a decent price to pay for jewish eradication. this is what they have to deal with, and you think israels the threat?
flashbacck
Golden Member
- Aug 3, 2001
- 1,921
- 0
- 76
I don't think Israel firing nukes at us is a problem. The real problem, imho, is that other nations will use "Israel has nukes" to justify pursuing their own weapons programs. How can you expect Iran, Syria or [insert country developing WMD] to disarm if we go ahead and let Israel have em? And other countries at odds with Israel will beg, borrow or steal their own nukes and claim self defense from the "zionist hoards".
I meant subs with nuclear capability, but I guess I miswrote. Anyhow, I can argue that Israel has no need for this capability, because as others have suggested, it will push other states in the region to also acquire this capability. Why let Israel have nukes? They already have military supremacy in the middle east, and it will surely stay that way as long as US is the superpower.
Every state that isn't in the good books with the US and Israel can then argue that they need a deterence against them.
Why start another arms race
My view is its rather unlikely that if Israel announced formally it did have nukes, but was now going to completely disarm, that all the Middle-Eastern powers would agree to get rid of their own chemical and nuclear weapon programs. I very sincerely doubt that Iran thinks its probable that Israel would ever use nukes against them unless they attacked them first, and Iran can certainly point to the US as a nuclear threat regardless. There is also the practical issue that neither side would trust the other to get rid of all of their WMDs or WMD developement programs. Finally, for Israel's perspective, they can't really absolutely trust the US in the future to use nukes against a country that launches massive WMD strikes at Israel, particularly given who is president can change every 4 years. Basicly Israel has had nukes for a long time, and now that other states in the region have their own programs, Israel has more of an argument than every why they need them.
MadRat
Lifer
- Oct 14, 1999
- 11,910
- 238
- 106
It is not illegal for any country to develop nuclear weapons. This is a misconception by the public. The problem is when a signatory country to international trade pacts goes against their pledges to not develop nuclear weapons in exchange for other merits. Violations of these agreements tend to illicit quick and hefty sanctions against the offending country. Isreal has not broken any of these pacts because they refuse to enter into them.
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