None. Just that Intel is the one having to prove being able to deliver on time.
With Intel's tight coupling of process and silicon design one can't tell either way. We don't even know the yield, only that Intel so far has been incapable of launching dies beyond a specific die size and number of cores, thus keeping them all in the mobile market.
I think most 3rd party manufactures would not want to sell all their new capacity to one company. Diversity is in the best interest of any corporation. Additionally, you're assuming that AMD can afford that. While they are on a rise and producing great products, that doesn't mean they have the cash reserves of some of the companies they also produce for. AMD doesn't want to spend all of their cash reserve not knowing what could happen in the next year or two. Believe me, I've seen it happen with companies during the market fallout in 2001, 2008/9, and 2020 You have to be fiscally responsible. Anyone who disagrees with this, simply hasn't worked for a Fortune 50 company during a down-turn.Maybe, why AMD didn't snatch that up is anyone's guess.
I am sitting here typing this on my main rig powered by a 4770k from 2013. I don't game on this, true. But I do edit video, record/edit multitrack audio, work with Photoshop, etc.. Honestly with a properly set up computer like mine even a lowly 4770k can churn through many workloads quite effectively.Couple of question. I've seen many people saying that they didn't expect or understand the i3 being built by TSMC. Question is, what is the actual percentage of i3 sales across all markets vs i5 or i7? Volume.
Also, I saw people complain about 4 core. What are corporate, enterprise (for employees) and low end customers purchasing? I know everyone here wants 16c/32T (I have a 5950X and understand), but realistically, what does the market demand and what is the biggest seller? High core/thread CPUs or 4C CPUs that are more than enough to run Office or a web browser? Thats a huge market segment.
AMD (or TSMC) currently can't produce enough CPUs, that much has been proven through the 5000 Series, Xbox and PS5. But they probably can easily produce non-high performance lower cores easily and it would offset the demand of Intel and allow them to focus on high-core and high-performance products.
Just a though....
i5 is the best seller by a wide margin but i3 is still a lot. More than i7.Couple of question. I've seen many people saying that they didn't expect or understand the i3 being built by TSMC. Question is, what is the actual percentage of i3 sales across all markets vs i5 or i7? Volume.
Space heaters, with "Intel Inside", coming soon to Home Depot...You do what you have to survive. If you have to go into the heating business as a side job you do it.
I wasn't sure because I know a lot of corporations have lower spec laptops/desktops that they give employees. But it doesn't surprise me that the i5, middle of the road, CPU is the best seller. Would be nice to see the sales numbers though. Wonder how huge the margin is?i5 is the best seller by a wide margin but i3 is still a lot. More than i7.
Intel needs to keep their fabs for the various other products they manufacture. But, what would stop Intel from selling/rent their fab facilities to TSMC (long term vision) to allow them to become the manufacturing partner of Intel? I realize it would take several years to ramp up, but a partnership with TSMC could be very beneficial in the long term.That would pit Intel directly against AMD, using TSMC to fab their CPUs.
You aren't the only one to think that way. Personally I see a move like that (or a similar move with Samsung) to be in Intel's best interest long-term, even if it means finally admitting that TSMC is now the market leader in cutting-edge silicon fabrication. Intel would be forced to make some serious concessions, but at least they could sort-of continue to survive as an IDM.Intel needs to keep their fabs for the various other products they manufacture. But, what would stop Intel from selling/rent their fab facilities to TSMC (long term vision) to allow them to become the manufacturing partner of Intel? I realize it would take several years to ramp up, but a partnership with TSMC could be very beneficial in the long term.
Same can be said for server CPUs. And intels real issue with 10nm seems to be yield (only quad-core parts so far).Clock speed is actually an argument for doing i3 at TSMC... would be a lot less pressure to hit high frequencies.
I don't know if they're the biggest sellers currently, but 4C/8T seems the ideal budget option right now. Both AMD and Intel have very reasonable priced options in that category. In many cases they provide similar performance to older i7's, and are even 65W TDP rated.Also, I saw people complain about 4 core. What are corporate, enterprise (for employees) and low end customers purchasing? I know everyone here wants 16c/32T (I have a 5950X and understand), but realistically, what does the market demand and what is the biggest seller? High core/thread CPUs or 4C CPUs that are more than enough to run Office or a web browser? Thats a huge market segment.
If yields is the problem with 10nm right now, the last thing Intel should be outsourcing are the i3 chips. I think capacity is the issue. Even with all the gains made in node density, the new server chips from both AMD and Intel are humongous compared to a few years ago. Those things are going to eat up a hefty shipment of silicon, and with Covid-19 inspired upsurge in PC demand, Intel's bets seem to have been placed.Same can be said for server CPUs. And intels real issue with 10nm seems to be yield (only quad-core parts so far).
One could imagine Intel outsources the volume parts so that they can use up all of their 10nm for server parts because they will need the full capacity due to the terrible yields. No idea about the actual numbers ($) but I doubt this route is more profitable?
Like me? Reminder? Source? If I ever were to think Intel couldn't fix its stuff I'd suggest Intel to sell its foundries, which I don't. What I do think is Intel is taking way too long to fix its stuff thus successfully turning its competitive IDM advantage into a disadvantage.Just a reminder to you, not long ago people like you didn't believe Intel could fix the awful 10nm clock speeds of CNL and Icelake and many didn't believe in 10nm for desktop either. You are trying to downplay the process improvements which speaks for itself. Tigerlake-U is growing really fast in the market which is a good sign. Furthermore Icelake-SP is based on the awful 10+, it will always struggle because of that. It's hard to believe for you Intel is really improving their 10nm.
And let's also not forget that TSMC started Volume Production of 5nm in April 2020 with products out in Q4. That 3-phase plan will be finished this year with N5P node also out (7% perf or 15% power improvement)If you remember, 7 nm was supposed to be ready and ramping right now. The Arizona fab which was intended for 7 nm probally has the 10 nm equipment that was taken down when they decided to go back mostly to 14 nm.
While Intel's 7nm could theoretically be a better node than TSMC 5nm (far from sold on that, but let's give them some benefit of a doubt). Even if that's the case, there is no way it will be better when initially released. History just doesn't make that a probable outcome. And I'm not even talking about Ice Lake (or ahem, Cannon Lake), but even Broadwell wasn't all that smooth sailing as a first 14nm product in 2014.TSMC 5-nanometer node will be ramping at Fab 18, a new 12-inch EUV GigaFab being constructed in three phases. Phase one finished in early 2018 which is where 5-nanometer is ramping. Phase 2 started a little later and is expected to enter volume production in 2020 as well. The final phase, Phase 3, started in 2019 and is planned for volume production in 2021. Fab 18 will also be the future home of their 3-nanometer process which is planned for 2022.
It might be beneficial to Intel, but I'm struggling to understand where TSMC benefits from this. If Intel is already coming to them with orders it seems it would make more sense for them if Intel wound down its operations as they slowly phased off using their own fabs. If they wanted to own that level of capacity in the US they would have been building a full sized fab in Arizona instead of the smaller version they are building.Intel needs to keep their fabs for the various other products they manufacture. But, what would stop Intel from selling/rent their fab facilities to TSMC (long term vision) to allow them to become the manufacturing partner of Intel? I realize it would take several years to ramp up, but a partnership with TSMC could be very beneficial in the long term.
Intel did say they were moving their designs to be more portable. And if you are going to validate it, you gotta start somewhere.It's anything but trivial to port across processes, especially when Intel's one of them.
Let me translate. The Core team (capital-C) refused to update their design methodology to the 21st century, despite everything else having gone in that direction. Supposedly they have recently been convinced to do so, but from what I hear, that's a ways out in the future. This is at least the limiting factor in "making designs more portable". Well, that, and presumably whatever disaggregation/chiplet/"client 2.0" system they come out with.Intel did say they were moving their designs to be more portable. And if you are going to validate it, you gotta start somewhere.
Well with the m1 being a thing and apple guaranteed to be increasing core count, and AMD is already at a comfortable 8, not getting absolutely owned in their largest market these next few years might be a high priority.The effort and cost involved makes it untenable for dual sourcing except as an emergency measure for a high priority product.
"Not long ago" was over two and a half years ago which is how much time elapsed between CNL and TGL and it might be a full three years before consumers see anything beyond a small 28W quad core because evidently not all of the process issues have been fixed yet. Three years is in fact an eternity in the process business.Just a reminder to you, not long ago people like you didn't believe Intel could fix the awful 10nm clock speeds of CNL and Icelake and many didn't believe in 10nm for desktop either. You are trying to downplay the process improvements which speaks for itself. Tigerlake-U is growing really fast in the market which is a good sign. Furthermore Icelake-SP is based on the awful 10+, it will always struggle because of that. It's hard to believe for you Intel is really improving their 10nm.
For reference 3 years ago Apple's 10nm A11 had only been out for 4 months, and first 7nm chips were still ~8 months away. We are in the same place now for 5nm chips (being out ~ 4 months out). Effectively TSMC has managed 2 (almost) full-node shrinks since then"Not long ago" was over two and a half years ago which is how much time elapsed between CNL and TGL and it might be a full three years before consumers see anything beyond a small 28W quad core because evidently not all of the process issues have been fixed yet. Three years is in fact an eternity in the process business.
It might be beneficial to Intel, but I'm struggling to understand where TSMC benefits from this. If Intel is already coming to them with orders it seems it would make more sense for them if Intel wound down its operations as they slowly phased off using their own fabs. If they wanted to own that level of capacity in the US they would have been building a full sized fab in Arizona instead of the smaller version they are building.