Replumbing entire house

[NetWareHead]

More pics from my fixer upper. When I bought the house, I knew the plumbing was on its way out. A home inspection revealed the cast iron sewer stack was repaired with less than ideal materials. I contemplated not buying the house since the plumbing was grandfathered from 1890 and if I touched any portion of the sewer stack, the entire stack would have needed to be brought up to date. But I got a good price so I proceeded.

I reasoned that I would soon have both kitchen and both bathrooms gutted to the studs and all sewer infrastructure would be exposed from these rooms. So why not replace it at this opportune moment? Entire sewer stack will be replaced with PVC along with new runs to all plumbing points.

Dealing with a single 4 inch stack that drains the 2 bathrooms and a feeder 3 inch stack that drains the 2 kitchens. Link to album https://goo.gl/photos/EXxPjYKmmnGqjNQ29 or individual picture links wth descriptions below.

Main stack in basement: https://goo.gl/photos/XyD9uA4rVyH392iH7 Note the later addition of laundry drainage; the trap propped up by some bricks.

The main stack looks good, cast iron in good shape with joints holding up. https://goo.gl/photos/4Nnx7DhcVucGnc7g8 Shame I have to get rid of it but this will be sold for scrap. Some of the joints are solid as hell, the lead bead can be clearly seen and no leaks, rust etc...

Kitchen feeder stack. When exposed from behind wall, revealed rotting pipe https://goo.gl/photos/HTP1q6KyudT1uYha8 & https://goo.gl/photos/9hBWwzcSd1yh2tPr6

Cracked hub from improper toilet installation. Also wrong sealant used for PVC to cast iron. Note the cracked hub caused by forcing PVC into brittle cast iron that extends into main body of pipe.. Very slow leak. https://goo.gl/photos/oybYuaP1tp2qeEom7 & https://goo.gl/photos/B4gBzZ9jYwPC2GUy7

Bathroom sink PVC to cast iron joint failed, the PVC can be pulled straight out with hand force. Also wrong sealant used. https://goo.gl/photos/eQ9wf8o2N8rWn8YT6

Kitchen feeder pipe extensive rusted and in worst shape. Actively leaking at joint between feeder pipe and main stack (only sink water so not bad to clean up). Probably also due to botched install/repair as pipe is angled up, eliminating downhill slope causing water to pool at joint. Note use of non approved putty substance to repair rust https://goo.gl/photos/UqHZNx3nkRUZ4Lev5.

Rest of kitchen feeder. https://goo.gl/photos/RKpVkWPoGhmfWqWG7 Yep, thats epoxy resin used to patch what looks like a 5 foot long crack along the bottom of the pipe.

Other bad plumbing, note the green copper caused by leaking over the years. https://goo.gl/photos/LTaRQJQWhUzRwpDP6, https://goo.gl/photos/o3BjFZ11P7tq5jKB7 & https://goo.gl/photos/F9QdWjYa9kwhjkXK6


Questions.

1. Plumber wants to replace all faucet, tub, toilet runs with PEX. I dont mind copper as it has been tried and true. But no experience with PEX. He says he has never had a problem and I may allow him to do it for the ease of installation and cost savings of not using copper.


2. How come cast iron was used, in direct contact with water and air and has not rusted? Im clearly not understanding something about how cast iron rusts or withstands water/air. How do some pipes not rust and others do when all exposed to same water/air?

3. The main stack runs from basement, up through the 2 floors and into attic where it emerges from roof to serve as vent stack. We reasoned that if we cut the stack, we will leave the last few feet of original pipe sticking through the roof. The stack does not have one of those pipe boots that permits a clean penetration. Instead there is roofing tar inside and outside of the roof that seals the hole. Removing the pipe is going to mean roofing work.

To (hopefully) avoid this, we are going to build a platform/support out of 2x4s to support the pipe hanging down into attic so we can cut it and then connect that to the future PVC stack. This part makes me kinda nervous as if the seal is disturbed, thats a roof leak. The idea of climbing on a 3rd story roof to slap tar around a pipe is not appealing at all. I was thinking of putting more tar from the inside of the attic around the hole just in case. Opinions?

 

[boomerang]

I'll just share my thoughts mostly for the sake of conversation because I'm not a plumber.

1. PEX from what I can tell is pretty much taking over the industry. Copper is just too damned expensive. From the pictures you've provided I question whether all the copper needs to be replaced. I hope you've gotten more than one opinion/estimate. I do understand that the labor can often be the difference between repairing or replacing.

2. Cast iron was all that was available. The black you see I believe is a coating because cast iron is gray in color. The corrosion you show in the pictures, is that surface rust? I highly doubt they are rusting from the inside out but I could be wrong because it's difficult to tell from the pictures. My gut is you've got a plumber that wants to fatten up the cost of the job. If it's surface rust you've got nothing to worry about. The transitions from cast iron to PVC can be reworked. From the standpoint of a purist, I'd want to replace it all with modern materials. I get that. Once again, labor vs. cost of replacement? I'm just playing devil's advocate.

3. This is the problem that concerns me the most. You're doing all this rehab work and IMO are trying to skirt around a very important issue. A roof leak has the potential to cause you a lot of grief and perhaps money down the road. Yeah, it's a third story roof. I sure wouldn't be up on it. But is it a shingle roof? Because if it is, putting on a boot will be a piece of cake from a mechanical perspective. I think your concerns are very good ones and you should listen to what your mind is telling you. That penetration will be disturbed. But it should be dealt with correctly instead of half-assed. Slapping patching compound from the underside is about as half-assed as you could get. It's really wrong. Please take that as being said seriously and not maliciously.

 

[DrPizza]

With my bro-in-law's help (he's a plumber/HVAC/heating guy), we just replaced all of the dwv system in my house last weekend. Cost somewhere around $300 for everything - I have a 1 story house, so it was fairly easy.

If I were you, I agree with leaving the top couple feet of cast iron going through the roof - for now. Cast iron is fairly easy to make a good cut in, provided your plumber has the right tool - looks sort of like a giant oil filter tool, except the chain on it has round disks that push into the cast iron and snap it off cleanly. Did this once in my old house; it took all of a minute. I'm not sure it's absolutely necessary, but I would build some framing to help support that top section (rather than relying on its weight being held up by the roofing tar & PVC below it). They make a clamp that would work for attaching the cast iron to the framing. - Then, a Fernco fitting will make attachment to the cast iron trivial. BUT, you need to remember - next time your roof needs to be redone - definitely replace the last couple of feet of the stack through your roof & do it properly. It'll add very little cost and 5 minutes to the roofing job. Save a piece of the 3" or 4" or whatever size your PVC is up in the attic next to the stack, just for this purpose. Just disconnect the Fernco fitting, have the roofers rip the cast iron piece out, and drop the PVC down through the hole - you could glue it yourself; just need a coupling. And the roofers can do their thing with the boot on the outside.


Re: Pex. Go for it - I would think that it would save you a fortune, especially on time. Pex is pretty bullet proof, especially if you use the homerun system (manifold for the cold, manifold for the hot, then one continuous line of pex from the manifold to the fixture - no tees on the lines. Fwiw, I just renovated my garage into an apartment this summer. Including running a 3/4" line across the basement of my entire house and out to the garage, main shutoff valve, teed to water heater, more valves, manifolds, separate lines to the kitchen sink, bathroom sink, shower, toilet, and exterior spigot, all of that plumbing took me 3-4 hours at the most. Last weekend, with my bro-in-law helping, we replaced nearly every inch of drain line in my house with PVC; I had several types of plumbing, the shower line leaked bad, and the washing machine line lost gallons of water onto the (unfinished basement) floor. I'm lucky though - 1 story house; running new PVC took us all of 3 hours so far - well, add another 1 1/2 hours for figuring out what we'd need, and purchasing everything, including a new toilet flange, new trap in the bathroom sink, etc. Good set-up - I did the cutting and upstairs work; bro-in-law did all the basement work, with me going back and forth a lot. Cost about $300 for everything. Everything's good for now, but the job won't be done until I do the new bathroom. At least, no more dripping on the basement floor.

edit: I didn't look at the pictures and see boomerang's post - the tar around the vent through the roof is on the underside? Get it fixed.

 

[NetWareHead]

Thtransitions from cast iron to PVC can be reworked. From the standpoint of a purist, I'd want to replace it all with modern materials. I get that. Once again, labor vs. cost of replacement? I'm just playing devil's advocate.

Its not really the plumber's choice. The plumbing is grandfathered in due to the age of the house. A partial replacment is really not a legal option. Once one section of pipe is replaced, the code here mandates the entire thing has to be brought up to code (when talking about the sewer stack. I asked him if he could just do it without pulling permit and he said the permit is my problem' he'll do the work permit or not but he won't do non-code work.

Plus I'm looking at the exposed cast iron pipe and how rusted it is. Why seal up the walls, tile them, and finish the house only to have to rip out the cast iron in 20 years when that finally rusts? It may never rust (the good parts haven't since 1890) but the walls are open now...

3. This is the problem that concerns me the most. You're doing all this rehab work and IMO are trying to skirt around a very important issue. A roof leak has the potential to cause you a lot of grief and perhaps money down the road. Yeah, it's a third story roof. I sure wouldn't be up on it. But is it a shingle roof? Because if it is, putting on a boot will be a piece of cake from a mechanical perspective. I think your concerns are very good ones and you should listen to what your mind is telling you. That penetration will be disturbed. But it should be dealt with correctly instead of half-assed. Slapping patching compound from the underside is about as half-assed as you could get. It's really wrong. Please take that as being said seriously and not maliciously.

Appreciate the advice and you raise some good points. A sawzall is going to vibrate the hell out of the pipe while we cut it and old tar is also going to shake loose. Shingle roof. So a pipe boot can be installed on existing shingles no problem then. I'll call a few roofers to get a quote.

 

[NetWareHead]

WiCast iron is fairly easy to make a good cut in, provided your plumber has the right tool - looks sort of like a giant oil filter tool, except the chain on it has round disks that push into the cast iron and snap it off cleanly. Did this once in my old house; it took all of a minute.

Yes... the chain pipe cutter thing (forgot about that. Silly me for suggesting a sawzall). That would make a far neater and not shake the roof penetration really at all.

I'm not sure it's absolutely necessary, but I would build some framing to help support that top section (rather than relying on its weight being held up by the roofing tar & PVC below it). They make a clamp that would work for attaching the cast iron to the framing. - Then, a Fernco fitting will make attachment to the cast iron trivial.

Yes my plumber is building into estimate to support last few feet of pipe with attachment to framing.

the tar around the vent through the roof is on the underside? Get it fixed.

Yeah the current seal is just alot of roofing tar instead of a proper boot. Figure thats what they did back then. Roof I'd eastimate is 20-30 years old anyway and will need to be replaced in 10 years or so. Think I'll just have a roofer quote me on "rebooting" the pipe.

 

[Greenman]

1. I've never used pex in one of my projects, though I've wanted too. The issue has always been availability of type A pex, and the number of class action suits against the manufactures. I always end up using copper because it's available everywhere, rats don't chew holes in it, and it's a proven material. I don't have to talk my clients into it. I also don't like how sloppy pex looks.

2. No idea why cast iron works. I've pulled out 80 year old iron that was in near perfect condition, and then found the next section of pipe on the same run rusted through.

3. Don't get cheap on the last 3 feet, roof jacks are easy to install.

 

[Humpy]

Its not really the plumber's choice. The plumbing is grandfathered in due to the age of the house. A partial replacment is really not a legal option. Once one section of pipe is replaced, the code here mandates the entire thing has to be brought up to code (when talking about the sewer stack. I asked him if he could just do it without pulling permit and he said the permit is my problem' he'll do the work permit or not but he won't do non-code work.

Cast iron isn't code acceptable in your area?

I find that odd.

 

[NetWareHead]

Cast iron isn't code acceptable in your area?

I find that odd.

It is acceptable. Its the manner in which this cast iron was installed when home was built > 120 years ago. It is not vented according to today's codes. I can leave it alone forever (grandfathered) but once problems start, the entire thing needs to be replaced; point repairs are not acceptable to this code authority.

I dont agree with it either and this drives people to use crap they shouldn't in order to fix a perfectly repairable system. Hence why someone tried to use epoxy resin to seal a crack in a pipe instead of replacing the entire system.

 

[mizzou]

I would love to see some photos of the exterior!!!

 

[bluepumpkin]

1. Plumber wants to replace all faucet, tub, toilet runs with PEX. I dont mind copper as it has been tried and true. But no experience with PEX. He says he has never had a problem and I may allow him to do it for the ease of installation and cost savings of not using copper.

Your plumber are smart, if you compare the price of PEX vs Copper, PEX costs less than $69 per 300 ft of half inch size http://www.canarsee.com/1-2-in-x-300-ft-pex-plumbing-pipe-non-barrier-blue .
You will figure out for yourself once you know the cost of copper pipe. At least 6 times higher! Even PEX-a will save you more than 60%.

PEX works just fine and that has been proven for over 30 years.

PEX better than Copper by few important specifications:

1. Freeze burst resistance
2. Chlorine resistance
3. Kink, Impact damage resistance

 

[DrPizza]

Your plumber are smart, if you compare the price of PEX vs Copper, PEX costs less than $69 per 300 ft of half inch size http://www.canarsee.com/1-2-in-x-300-ft-pex-plumbing-pipe-non-barrier-blue .
You will figure out for yourself once you know the cost of copper pipe. At least 6 times higher! Even PEX-a will save you more than 60%.

PEX works just fine and that has been proven for over 30 years.

PEX better than Copper by few important specifications:

1. Freeze burst resistance
2. Chlorine resistance
3. Kink, Impact damage resistance

To be fair, I've never seen a copper pipe kink after it's been installed.

 

[NetWareHead]

From the pictures you've provided I question whether all the copper needs to be replaced.

The only copper being replaced is where the pipe has shown evidence of leaking or where a valve is rotten for instance. And being that I have gutted both bathrooms and kitchens, those 4 rooms alone constitute for most the plumbing anyway (the remaining copper is the hydronic heating loops which can stay as is.

Your plumber are smart, if you compare the price of PEX vs Copper, PEX costs less than $69 per 300 ft of half inch size http://www.canarsee.com/1-2-in-x-300-ft-pex-plumbing-pipe-non-barrier-blue .
You will figure out for yourself once you know the cost of copper pipe. At least 6 times higher! Even PEX-a will save you more than 60%.

PEX works just fine and that has been proven for over 30 years.

PEX better than Copper by few important specifications:

1. Freeze burst resistance
2. Chlorine resistance
3. Kink, Impact damage resistance

Sounds great. I'd imagine there would be a savings on labor as there is no sweating of sections of pipe every few feet or wherever a new direction change is needed.

 

[Micrornd]

One thing I haven't seen anyone mention is that cast iron is much quieter in use than PVC for stack pipes.
Cast iron also comes in , shall we say "grades" with the better grade being a finer grain and having better exterior coating (to prevent rusting).
Rubber gaskets (in cast iron fittings in place of packing and/or lead) are used to adapt other pipe materials and allow for expansion/contraction (which is necessary if you combine different materials).

What ever you decide to do, replace the stack completely, including the portion going through the roof.
There is no way a plumber is going to work on a that stack without disturbing the tar acting as a seal, it's just false economy to assume the stack to roof penetration won't leak afterward, especially if you live in an area where it snows.
Remember that if your plumber is going to do the (required in most building codes) "stack test", he's going to have to fill the stack from the roof vent anyway.

 

[NetWareHead]

One thing I haven't seen anyone mention is that cast iron is much quieter in use than PVC for stack pipes.

True but this is a rental unit. I'm more apt to choose things for reliability and profit than to reinstall cast iron. Besides, has anyone heard of properly installed PVC failing? The thing about cast iron is that it is unpredictable. After I'm done with this gutting of walls, replacement of pipes etc... I dont want to have to touch the vitals in this house for hopefully a long time. As stated here, some pipes work forever while others inexplicably rust out. True the sound deadening qualities of cast iron cant be denied, so perhaps for my own house I'd choose this expense.

Cast iron also comes in , shall we say "grades" with the better grade being a finer grain and having better exterior coating (to prevent rusting).

Do you mean service (SV) and extra heavy (XH)?

Remember that if your plumber is going to do the (required in most building codes) "stack test", he's going to have to fill the stack from the roof vent anyway.

Is this the smoke and peppermint oil tests to show cracks or trap problems?

 

[paperfist]

You're not able to rebuild the cast parts of the plumbing that have rotted?

You can't clamp the cast at the base of the attic and cut it below the floor? Trying to support cast mid air is going to cause movement. The clamps they make for them are designed to keep them in place.

 

[bluepumpkin]

To be fair, I've never seen a copper pipe kink after it's been installed.

Haha! Good Answer, but maybe you haven’t looked hard enough!

 

[bluepumpkin]

The only copper being replaced is where the pipe has shown evidence of leaking or where a valve is rotten for instance. And being that I have gutted both bathrooms and kitchens, those 4 rooms alone constitute for most the plumbing anyway (the remaining copper is the hydronic heating loops which can stay as is.



Sounds great. I'd imagine there would be a savings on labor as there is no sweating of sections of pipe every few feet or wherever a new direction change is needed.

Thank you, I always tend to advise my friends to purchase PEX tubing as opposed to copper or even PVC. I just think that it is the better option, when it comes to installation, labor, and even usage. That’s exactly the point, less fittings, easier installation, and half the price at minimum…. Why would you pick anything else?

 

[Greenman]

Thank you, I always tend to advise my friends to purchase PEX tubing as opposed to copper or even PVC. I just think that it is the better option, when it comes to installation, labor, and even usage. That’s exactly the point, less fittings, easier installation, and half the price at minimum…. Why would you pick anything else?

Because copper doesn't leach MTBE and benzine into your water.

I'm still up in the air over pex. I think it's good product, but I don't believe it's the equal of copper in most places. It's cheap and easy, that's a plus, but it seems to be pretty well established that it does leach chemicals, that's a minus. Copper makes my clients smile when they see it going in, it defiantly has the quality look, that's a plus as well.
I'm sure at some point I'll talk myself into using pex, but not today. I'm old school, with a reputation that I guard ferociously, I'd hate to have a client think I was using cheap material on their home.

 

[paperfist]

Because copper doesn't leach MTBE and benzine into your water.

I'm still up in the air over pex. I think it's good product, but I don't believe it's the equal of copper in most places. It's cheap and easy, that's a plus, but it seems to be pretty well established that it does leach chemicals, that's a minus. Copper makes my clients smile when they see it going in, it defiantly has the quality look, that's a plus as well.
I'm sure at some point I'll talk myself into using pex, but not today. I'm old school, with a reputation that I guard ferociously, I'd hate to have a client think I was using cheap material on their home.

Exactly why I'll never use PEX unless I want to heat a slab. I don't know too many plastics I want to drink from especially at the temps I have my indirect hot water heater set to.

It hurts in the pocket book to spring for copper but it's one less thing I have to worry about.

 

[Micrornd]

True but this is a rental unit. I'm more apt to choose things for reliability and profit than to reinstall cast iron. Besides, has anyone heard of properly installed PVC failing?

Can't say that I have seen properly installed PVC fail.
But I can say that I haven't seen properly installed cast iron fail either and I've worked with some in municipal facilities dating back over 120 years. What the joints and pipe your pictures show, is not properly installed (and still lasted over 100 years from what you say) or properly modified cast iron, but cast iron plumbing modified by later generation plumbers that have only seen cast iron and not ever been trained to install it.
The plumbers that installed the copper weren't much better, as shown by the corrosion caused by sloppy fluxing and not wiping and neutralizing the flux after the joint was soldered. :\

So, yes I agree, it would be best to replace it all with PVC, as long as you have a plumber that knows how to install that properly.
I've seen a lot that really don't and have never apprenticed or had any quality training, yet run or work in some of the major plumbing shops in the area.
There is more to it that than just swab and stab :\
But, then I've been generously referred to as "particular", more than once.

Do you mean service (SV) and extra heavy (XH)?

Yes, that's about all that remains since cast iron has been standardized.
Older CI went more by OD and weight/ft and can be a real problem when having to modify or cut in to.
Back when (at least through the mid '70's), there was an additional ABC grading of each for quality.
It was dropped once "quality was universal" from all manufacturers and SV and XH became the standard in the late '70's.
It's getting harder and harder to find plumbers that know how to deal properly with modern CI, much less the earlier varieties and variations.
Ask an "experienced" plumber if he's ever seen or had to work with 2½", 5" or 7" CI and watch the looks you'll get.
Working with new(er) CI properly is rapidly becoming a "lost art" and I really believe working with pre-1940's CI is a "lost art".

Is this the smoke and peppermint oil tests to show cracks or trap problems?

No, the water column test.
Is that not required in your area?

 

[NetWareHead]

You're not able to rebuild the cast parts of the plumbing that have rotted?

Meh, Im not a plumber. I dont have many plumbing tools and have even less skill. I just learned how to sweat pipe recently. When dealing with dwv, probably best to leave it to pros as sewer accidents are expensive to fix and have the effect of driving away rental business.

I would seriously consider it if I found a plumber that was willing to do exactly what you suggest and replace only rotted sections. But thats not code and when a pro with a license touches it, they are insistent on doing it by the books. So the whole system is going away.

You can't clamp the cast at the base of the attic and cut it below the floor? Trying to support cast mid air is going to cause movement. The clamps they make for them are designed to keep them in place.

Thats actually a great idea and asked my plumber to implement it. Thanks. Why build a "contraption" out of 2x4s (hours of billable time) to support 3 feet of hanging pipe from the roof rafters when I have already decided to put a proper pipe boot on the roof. At best, the pipe will just need to be temporarily supported to not disturb the seal until it can be replaced at end of this project with PVC. Box it in and support it using some scrap wood nailed to the ceiling joists of second floor.

 

[NetWareHead]

The plumbers that installed the copper weren't much better, as shown by the corrosion caused by sloppy fluxing and not wiping and neutralizing the flux after the joint was soldered. :\

Ahh so you mean every copper joint where it is green is not a leak but rather remnants from sloppy installation? Thats just remnant flux that was not cleaned up? Is that eating the pipe and a way I can clean it?

It's getting harder and harder to find plumbers that know how to deal properly with modern CI, much less the earlier varieties and variations.
Ask an "experienced" plumber if he's ever seen or had to work with 2½", 5" or 7" CI and watch the looks you'll get.
Working with new(er) CI properly is rapidly becoming a "lost art" and I really believe working with pre-1940's CI is a "lost art".

True. Many plumbers nowadays dont know how to work with lead and oakum either...

No, the water column test. Is that not required in your area?

Oh you mean that. Yeah thats required and he will fill entire thing and pressurize to test for leaks.

 

[Greenman]

Ahh so you mean every copper joint where it is green is not a leak but rather remnants from sloppy installation? Thats just remnant flux that was not cleaned up? Is that eating the pipe and a way I can clean it?

I missed something along the way. Green stain on copper doesn't indicate a leak, it's generally old flux and it could become a problem in a couple hundred years.

 

[NetWareHead]

I missed something along the way. Green stain on copper doesn't indicate a leak, it's generally old flux and it could become a problem in a couple hundred years.

Some of the pics I posted detail green copper pipes which I mistook for leaking. I gues that explains why my plumber did not include them for replacement on his estimate. Good to know!

 

[mizzou]

my home water line was replaced with a PEX grade and it was kind of hilarious how nonchalant they were while installing it. It's quite good stuff from what I can see.

I've heard there is a "taste" difference between PEX and copper. I haven't noticed a taste change, but my supply pipes are all still copper. I absolutely have tasted a difference when my supply pipes were switched to a plastic or PEX type.



What's the PEX durability from constant reheat-cool down sessions?