Replacing receiver with amp

[yh125d]

I'm looking to replace my receiver with a proper amp, could use some input

What I got now - optical from my computer to Onkyo TX-NR609, running 2x Energy CF-70 towers and an Energy ESW-C10 400w powered sub
What I'm aiming for - optical from my computer to Onkyo TX-NR609, line out to (INSERT AMP HERE) to towers, preout from amp to sub.

Problem is I know dick about amps (and not all that much about other stuff either). The only brand I know to be good is NAD, as my dad had a NAD/PSB setup that I thought was pretty dang good growing up.

Budget is flexible. I'd like to stay in the 500-750 range but I don't mind spending as much as 1000 or so if the extra cost gets good return for the investment

As I only know NAD, my budget points me to look at these
NAD C 326BEE - ~$550
NAD C 356BEE - ~$800
NAD C 356BEE w/DAC- ~$900

After reading some reviews, I'm really liking the sound of the 356. While the 326 I'm sure would power this just fine, I think the 356 should have more headroom, when I move up speaker wise in years to come. I'm not sure whether the extra $100 DAC is worth it though. I figure it's probably as good or better as the Onkyo, but I don't know how much better. I'd lose the functionality of the Onkyo, but I can make do just fine (and sound quality is #1 anyways). and it would be a cleaner setup as I'd move the Onkyo to the living room rather than having both in my cave/office

Below is my configuration, which I know is pretty funky and"sub"optimal at best. I think it works fairly well though, I was afraid it would be horrible but it's noticably more effective than I had expected. The towers are elevated about 10", so that the lowest woofer falls just below the desk (completely open below desk), and the rest is above. I've tried sitting them without a base, and higher so that all woofers are above the desk but both sounded pretty unbalanced.

Thoughts? Other models I should check out?

 

[alcoholbob]

Make sure to find an amp with high input sensitivity. The pre-outs on alot of commercial receivers have very low powered pre-amp stages that often fail to even hit 1 Vrms.

 

[Number1]

WHat's wrong with the Onkyo? WHat do you want to achieve?

 

[yh125d]

The Onkyo is very decent, and I've been mostly happy with it but it kind of feels gutless at high volumes. It sounds pretty good up to a point but it starts to fade away and distort right where I want it to step up. It just runs out of gas before I'm happy.

And I've heard in a few places that the CF-70s improve considerably with better power

 

[sdifox]

Emotiva xpa-5? Or just get an xpa-2 for the mains or xp-3 for the front 3. The other channels don't draw nearly as much power as the mains. Even in hd music, most of the sound come from the front 3.

 

[purbeast0]

i personally have no experience with amps other than the one that drives my subs but from what i've seen over on avs, the emotiva amps that sdifox mentioned seem to get very positive reviews.

 

[weez82]

You wont gain anything by upgrading the amp. If you want to improve your sound then upgrade the weakest link, the sub. The amp in the 609 is good. You're doing what most people do, working backwards. You need to get the speakers/sub first then worry about the other stuff.

 

[s44]

Emotiva xpa-5? Or just get an xpa-2 for the mains or xp-3 for the front 3.

He's running 2.1.

The whole setup seems a bit convoluted. Why even consider a NAD amp (the 326) that will probably deliver exactly the same power as the AVR? Heck, why spend $800+ on getting 3-5db extra from 96db speakers you're running nearfield?

Have you run Audyssey? Do you realize that to attach an outboard amp to your AVR you'll have to run it through Zone 2?

Erm. Anyway, if you really want to drive your CF70s to their full rated power handling, I suggest the 2x300w Class A/B Emotiva XPA2 ($800, currently OOS, maybe you can get one secondhand) or the 2x250w Class D D-Sonic M2-500S ($975 from B-stock). This seems sort of crazy with your current setup though.

 

[Howard]

May I ask how you know it is the amp circuitry which makes the sound feel gutless at high volumes?

 

[Howard]

The Onkyo is very decent, and I've been mostly happy with it but it kind of feels gutless at high volumes. It sounds pretty good up to a point but it starts to fade away and distort right where I want it to step up. It just runs out of gas before I'm happy.

And I've heard in a few places that the CF-70s improve considerably with better power

I read a review which said the same - that might be where you are getting that opinion from. I don't trust any reviews that don't show measurements, FWIW.

 

[sdifox]

He's running 2.1.

The whole setup seems a bit convoluted. Why even consider a NAD amp (the 326) that will probably deliver exactly the same power as the AVR? Heck, why spend $800+ on getting 3-5db extra from 96db speakers you're running nearfield?

Have you run Audyssey? Do you realize that to attach an outboard amp to your AVR you'll have to run it through Zone 2?

Erm. Anyway, if you really want to drive your CF70s to their full rated power handling, I suggest the 2x300w Class A/B Emotiva XPA2 ($800, currently OOS, maybe you can get one secondhand) or the 2x250w Class D D-Sonic M2-500S ($975 from B-stock). This seems sort of crazy with your current setup though.

2.1? then he shouldn't have power issues.

 

[Anubis]

how loud are you trying to drive these? the CD-70s are pretty sensitive i'm not sure a more powerful amp is gonna help you

 

[yh125d]

Hrmm, a little confused by the feedback.

You wont gain anything by upgrading the amp. If you want to improve your sound then upgrade the weakest link, the sub. The amp in the 609 is good. You're doing what most people do, working backwards. You need to get the speakers/sub first then worry about the other stuff.

Huh? A good dedicated amp wouldn't sound better than my Onkyo? I wouldn't have thought my sub was the weak link, it doesn't sound that way at all

May I ask how you know it is the amp circuitry which makes the sound feel gutless at high volumes?

I don't know that is the case. When I bought the Onkyo, from what I had heard/read it was a capable reciever with lots of features and decent amp, but at $400 wouldn't compare very well strictly audio speaking compared to a more expensive, dedicated amp. Is that a bad assumption?


Alright then, if buying an amp doesn't sound like the way to go, what would you guys recommend to improve my setup? When I bought it all I thought my speakers were better in comparison to my receiver, and I would in the future (now) upgrade to a dedicated amp that had plenty of power for the towers, plus headroom for when I upgrade the towers in a few years. Would it be better to upgrade the towers now and amp later? Something else? Depending on what I do, my budget is very flexible

 

[yh125d]

Also, just talked to my dad. His amp is a NAD C370. He's gonna let me borrow it for a bit to try it out before I buy anything

 

[sdifox]

Hrmm, a little confused by the feedback.



Huh? A good dedicated amp wouldn't sound better than my Onkyo? I wouldn't have thought my sub was the weak link, it doesn't sound that way at all




I don't know that is the case. When I bought the Onkyo, from what I had heard/read it was a capable reciever with lots of features and decent amp, but at $400 wouldn't compare very well strictly audio speaking compared to a more expensive, dedicated amp. Is that a bad assumption?


Alright then, if buying an amp doesn't sound like the way to go, what would you guys recommend to improve my setup? When I bought it all I thought my speakers were better in comparison to my receiver, and I would in the future (now) upgrade to a dedicated amp that had plenty of power for the towers, plus headroom for when I upgrade the towers in a few years. Would it be better to upgrade the towers now and amp later? Something else? Depending on what I do, my budget is very flexible

So, basically, you want to spend money, just don't know what to spend on.

 

[weez82]

Yes, your weakest link is the sub. It's just not a very good one. Not saying its bad, just not good. As for the amp, I think you're looking at it in the wrong way. Just cause it costs more doesnt mean it will make a huge difference. This is the order of importance for improving sound:
Speaker placement
Room acoustics (running Audyssey can only do so much)
upgrading Speakers/sub
Then the very last thing is upgrading amps and dacs

And amps are really only going to be stressed when playing the lower frequencies. So if you have your sub integrated properly then your receivers amp shouldnt be playing the lower frequencies anyways.

One last thing, how loud are you trying to play your music? You say that your system doesnt cut it at higher volume. How high is that? It might just be that your speakers cant handle that volume level.

 

[alcoholbob]

He's running 2.1.

The whole setup seems a bit convoluted. Why even consider a NAD amp (the 326) that will probably deliver exactly the same power as the AVR? Heck, why spend $800+ on getting 3-5db extra from 96db speakers you're running nearfield?

Have you run Audyssey? Do you realize that to attach an outboard amp to your AVR you'll have to run it through Zone 2?

Erm. Anyway, if you really want to drive your CF70s to their full rated power handling, I suggest the 2x300w Class A/B Emotiva XPA2 ($800, currently OOS, maybe you can get one secondhand) or the 2x250w Class D D-Sonic M2-500S ($975 from B-stock). This seems sort of crazy with your current setup though.

No point getting a that D-Sonic unit, all the ICEPower 500/1000 ASP integrated kits run at ~1.87V input sensitivity. That Onkyo receiver probably won't even be able to hit 50% of the rated power of the power amp before the pre-amp starts clipping, as very few receivers even in the $1000+ class can hit above 1 Vrms cleanly. You need a separates pre-pro to push those inefficient D-Sonic units to full power.

Emotiva power amps run at between 850mV to 1.1 Vrms which most commercial receivers can run to full power.

 

[yh125d]

So, basically, you want to spend money, just don't know what to spend on.

Kinda. I thought I could get a pretty good upgrade by getting a good amp for 500-800, but I think if I were to upgrade my towers I'd probably be looking in the 1500-3000/pair range. I was hoping with a good amp I'd be happy enough with my setup to last at least a few years, until I can move to a house where I can have a bigger office

On that note, I have a 13x10x8 bedroom I could move my office to, but I'm hesitant as its on the edge of my house, and my neighbors house is pretty close. I could do some soundproofing though, if I were to do that

Basically I want to do what I gotta do to improve my setup. /if that meand spending money I'll do that. if not, I'll do something else

 

[Howard]

Also, just talked to my dad. His amp is a NAD C370. He's gonna let me borrow it for a bit to try it out before I buy anything

Let him hook it up for you and see if you can tell the difference blind. You don't need to do a double-blind ABX test but at least you should try to give yourself the opportunity to save money.

For my taste, once you have a working system, the next step is to measure the frequency response at the listening position(s). Most rooms usually have peaks and nulls in the bass and midbass which need to be treated with either mechanical or electrical means.

I still don't know why you would feel your speakers thin out at high volumes. My only guess is that perhaps the speakers are voiced with exaggerated lows and highs and when they get louder, the mids get completely drowned out (see Fletcher-Munson curve). Usually when an amp gets overloaded, it sounds distorted or just cuts out.

 

[sdifox]

Have you tried moving your setup away from the wall? like more space behind the speakers. shift everything more towards the other wall? Speakers don't really like walls.

Or rotate your room 180 degrees if the tables don't allow you to do simple pull back because of the door. Or move that table to the window side.

Or rotate counter clockwise and have your table face the window.

 

[yh125d]

Alright, I need to take the time to do some experimenting. Here's some layouts I could try

I like the looks of 3, 6, and 7. If I do move to the larger room I'd like to at least put something in the windows. I'll do some reading this week as I try out the NAD, and move things around next weekend

 

[sdifox]

3 and 6 are best options I think. I prefer speakers on the narrower wall so you have more depth to play with.

But then 9' vs 10'...

 

[s44]

I still want to know if he ran Audyssey. 2EQ isn't super-advanced, but it's certainly better than nothing.

 

[yh125d]

I still want to know if he ran Audyssey. 2EQ isn't super-advanced, but it's certainly better than nothing.

Yes I'm using Audyssey, it is a modest improvement, but can probably only do so much given my orientation. I never did the "full" setup using three listening positions, as I figured the size of my room was too small for it to matter much. I'll do that tomorrow

 

[Howard]

Alright, I need to take the time to do some experimenting. Here's some layouts I could try

I like the looks of 3, 6, and 7. If I do move to the larger room I'd like to at least put something in the windows. I'll do some reading this week as I try out the NAD, and move things around next weekend

7 looks not bad but you want speakers at least 2-3 feet away from any walls.