Repair the Electoral College

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
from WaPo:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/.../A10803-2004Oct29.html

Repair the Electoral College
Four Steps Would Help Balance Majority Rule With Minority Rights

By Peter M. Shane
Sunday, October 31, 2004; Page B07

If Tuesday brings another mismatch between the electoral and popular votes, maybe we will finally get national agreement on a significant proposition: Our current electoral college system has got to go.

The most popular idea to replace it -- a national direct election -- has the obvious appeal of honoring our modern-day commitment to the principle of one person, one vote. We would no longer risk the distortion of majority sentiment by a disproportionate allocation of state electors.

But a national direct election would also mean giving up a number of advantages that thoughtful commentators attribute to the electoral college system as it currently operates.

Operating our presidential contest as 50 state elections (and one in the District of Columbia) means candidates have to be more attentive to minority interests, including rural interests, than they would otherwise be.

The electoral college system limits the burdens of recounting, and the impacts of voting irregularities, to single states.

The winner-take-all system everywhere but Maine and Nebraska, which is based on state law and not on the Constitution, bolsters the two-party system, which many think the basis for our long history of relative political stability.

Moreover, when it accords with the popular vote, the electoral college tends to exaggerate the margin of victory, thus discouraging post-electoral challenges and diminishing uncertainty.

For all of these reasons, it may be attractive to replace our current process with another system of indirect election that simply changes the makeup of the electoral college.

I call my proposal "Drop Two." We should preserve the electoral college, but lower by two the number of electors allocated to every state.

Currently, each state gets a number of electors equivalent to the number of its members of the House, plus two for its senators.

It is the latter allocation that most significantly causes the overweighting of the small states' votes. Giving each state a number of electors equivalent to its House delegation would still overrepresent the less populated states, but not as dramatically.

The second step of a desirable con- stitutional amendment would be to require states to choose their electors through statewide popular votes. This would finally give explicit recognition to the proposition that participating in presidential elections, even if run by the states, is a privilege of national citizenship.

A third step would be to impose the winner-take-all "unit rule" as a national standard, thus protecting the two-party system and the incentive that our current system embodies for consensus-building and governing from the middle. It would keep partisan gerrymandering from affecting presidential elections, and it would avoid the increased likelihood of throwing elections to the House that would likely follow if electors were apportioned within states according to the size of the popular vote.

Finally, a new amendment should provide that, in elections thrown to Congress, each state delegation would vote as a whole, as it does now, but that the vote of each state would be weighted according to the size of its House delegation. In other words, we should not abandon a fair weighting of the states just at the point that the electoral college fails to produce an outcome.

Had this system been in place from 1960 to 2000, it would have changed the outcome of only one election -- the election of George W. Bush over Al Gore. Instead of losing 271 to 266, Gore would have won 224 to 211, which would have accorded with the popular vote.

"Drop Two" thus preserves the institutional advantages of the electoral college while offering a sounder balance between the two fundamental and somewhat contradictory tenets of American democracy: majority rule and minority rights.

Peter M. Shane teaches separa- tion-of-powers law at Ohio State University's Moritz College of Law, where he directs the Center for Law, Policy and Social Science.

I'm on the record as being against the electoral college, but this seems like a good compromise between the current system and an all-out popular vote.

I know it would never happen, but it's nice to think about :)
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
There's a bit of a problem here though, since the system seems to have been designed to fix one previous outcome; but if I'm not mistaken, Bush isn't the only elected President in the USA this century to lose the popular vote.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Fix? I say abolish. Here is a sample amendment: Whoever gets more Americans to vote for them gets to be president.
For bonus points we could have a run-off system too.
 

lordtyranus

Banned
Aug 23, 2004
1,324
0
0
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
There's a bit of a problem here though, since the system seems to have been designed to fix one previous outcome; but if I'm not mistaken, Bush isn't the only elected President in the USA this century to lose the popular vote.

There have been 3 cases of this happening.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: lordtyranus
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
There's a bit of a problem here though, since the system seems to have been designed to fix one previous outcome; but if I'm not mistaken, Bush isn't the only elected President in the USA this century to lose the popular vote.

There have been 3 cases of this happening.

Thanks - I just knew there was more than one (as I'm pretty certain Nixon either won or lost under these circumstances; my American history isn't too bad, but it is a little sketchy;))
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
I think we need to start over from the ground up. Go to a national election in which you vote for a party, and legislature is apportioned according to how many votes each party gets. If nothing else it would make it possible for there to be legitimate 3rd parties. It would be nice to not have to decide between bad and worse. I would also get rid of the entire office of the presidency, basically get rid of the american "system" and do something different.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,405
8,581
126
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Fix? I say abolish. Here is a sample amendment: Whoever gets more Americans to vote for them gets to be president.
For bonus points we could have a run-off system too.

did you read the article?
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,405
8,581
126
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
I think we need to start over from the ground up. Go to a national election in which you vote for a party, and legislature is apportioned according to how many votes each party gets. If nothing else it would make it possible for there to be legitimate 3rd parties. It would be nice to not have to decide between bad and worse. I would also get rid of the entire office of the presidency, basically get rid of the american "system" and do something different.

it would also make politicians 100% beholden to parties and the cigar smoking fat cats in the back room that run the thing. your proposal also gets rid of one of the checks and balances put in place to protect people from the federal government.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Fix? I say abolish. Here is a sample amendment: Whoever gets more Americans to vote for them gets to be president.
For bonus points we could have a run-off system too.

did you read the article?

Yes.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,405
8,581
126
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Fix? I say abolish. Here is a sample amendment: Whoever gets more Americans to vote for them gets to be president.
For bonus points we could have a run-off system too.

did you read the article?

Yes.

do you have any counter to his points?
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Fix? I say abolish. Here is a sample amendment: Whoever gets more Americans to vote for them gets to be president.
For bonus points we could have a run-off system too.

did you read the article?

Yes.

do you have any counter to his points?

Sure, do you have a specific argument you like?

I'll give you one argument I'm not fond of. THat we need to pay more attention to rurals and other groups. This is hogwash. Rurals and minorities will not be ignored (in fact I think ethnic minorities who live in cities and would form large national voting blocks would be benifitted). They would get their attention, but their fair share of attention. The way it is now the three largest states are being ignored. This is not democratic. In a democracy, you get power in numbers.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
I think we need to start over from the ground up. Go to a national election in which you vote for a party, and legislature is apportioned according to how many votes each party gets. If nothing else it would make it possible for there to be legitimate 3rd parties. It would be nice to not have to decide between bad and worse. I would also get rid of the entire office of the presidency, basically get rid of the american "system" and do something different.

it would also make politicians 100% beholden to parties and the cigar smoking fat cats in the back room that run the thing. your proposal also gets rid of one of the checks and balances put in place to protect people from the federal government.

im not sure that checks and balances have done a whole lot of checking or balancing lately, or a whole lot of protecting of the people. second I think it would be better to ahve the beholden to something like a political party than to the "defense" industry or the oil industry or the pharmecuticals and the like.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: Infohawk
I'll give you one argument I'm not fond of. THat we need to pay more attention to rurals and other groups. This is hogwash. Rurals and minorities will not be ignored (in fact I think ethnic minorities who live in cities and would form large national voting blocks would be benifitted). They would get their attention, but their fair share of attention. The way it is now the three largest states are being ignored. This is not democratic. In a democracy, you get power in numbers.
I agree. A democracy i which the only voters tat matter are in minnesota, iowa, wisconsin, ohio, pennsylvannia, florida, and whoever else.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,405
8,581
126
Originally posted by: miketheidiot


im not sure that checks and balances have done a whole lot of checking or balancing lately, or a whole lot of protecting of the people. second I think it would be better to ahve the beholden to something like a political party than to the "defense" industry or the oil industry or the pharmecuticals and the like.
just think of newt gingrich in charge of everything.
who do you think the fat cats with the cigars in the back room are?
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,405
8,581
126
Originally posted by: Infohawk

Sure, do you have a specific argument you like?

I'll give you one argument I'm not fond of. THat we need to pay more attention to rurals and other groups. This is hogwash. Rurals and minorities will not be ignored (in fact I think ethnic minorities who live in cities and would form large national voting blocks would be benifitted). They would get their attention, but their fair share of attention. The way it is now the three largest states are being ignored. This is not democratic. In a democracy, you get power in numbers.
this is a democratic republic. democracy is what republics degenerate into.


i like political stability.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: Infohawk

Sure, do you have a specific argument you like?

I'll give you one argument I'm not fond of. THat we need to pay more attention to rurals and other groups. This is hogwash. Rurals and minorities will not be ignored (in fact I think ethnic minorities who live in cities and would form large national voting blocks would be benifitted). They would get their attention, but their fair share of attention. The way it is now the three largest states are being ignored. This is not democratic. In a democracy, you get power in numbers.
this is a democratic republic. democracy is what republics degenerate into.

What does that have to do with my post or the electoral college? Frankly, it sounds like you're spouting off something you heard somewhere. If you are responding to my democracy reference then you are misunderstanding democracy or using a very limited definition of it. Democracy and REPRESENTATIVE Republic are not mutually exclusive.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,405
8,581
126
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: Infohawk

Sure, do you have a specific argument you like?

I'll give you one argument I'm not fond of. THat we need to pay more attention to rurals and other groups. This is hogwash. Rurals and minorities will not be ignored (in fact I think ethnic minorities who live in cities and would form large national voting blocks would be benifitted). They would get their attention, but their fair share of attention. The way it is now the three largest states are being ignored. This is not democratic. In a democracy, you get power in numbers.
this is a democratic republic. democracy is what republics degenerate into.

What does that have to do with my post or the electoral college? Frankly, it sounds like you're spouting off something you heard somewhere. If you are responding to my democracy reference then you are misunderstanding democracy or using a very limited definition of it. Democracy and REPRESENTATIVE Republic are not mutually exclusive.

here

again, i like political stability
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: miketheidiot


im not sure that checks and balances have done a whole lot of checking or balancing lately, or a whole lot of protecting of the people. second I think it would be better to ahve the beholden to something like a political party than to the "defense" industry or the oil industry or the pharmecuticals and the like.
just think of newt gingrich in charge of everything.
who do you think the fat cats with the cigars in the back room are?

A multiparty system is actually the bain of "fatcats" since at most they might control only 40% of the legislature and would have to deal with other parties to get anything done. Other parties would not take well to the tactics of Newt, and such a party would not be able to exercise parties.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: Infohawk

Sure, do you have a specific argument you like?

I'll give you one argument I'm not fond of. THat we need to pay more attention to rurals and other groups. This is hogwash. Rurals and minorities will not be ignored (in fact I think ethnic minorities who live in cities and would form large national voting blocks would be benifitted). They would get their attention, but their fair share of attention. The way it is now the three largest states are being ignored. This is not democratic. In a democracy, you get power in numbers.
this is a democratic republic. democracy is what republics degenerate into.

What does that have to do with my post or the electoral college? Frankly, it sounds like you're spouting off something you heard somewhere. If you are responding to my democracy reference then you are misunderstanding democracy or using a very limited definition of it. Democracy and REPRESENTATIVE Republic are not mutually exclusive.

Democracy means that the people decide. Representative republic means that the people decide who decides. A slight difference.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,405
8,581
126
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
A multiparty system is actually the bain of "fatcats" since at most they might control only 40% of the legislature and would have to deal with other parties to get anything done. Other parties would not take well to the tactics of Newt, and such a party would not be able to exercise parties.

just think of ariel sharon in charge of everything

ok, so some fatcats would have to agree with other fatcats. i'm sure michael eisner and bill gates could work something out.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
non starter

these are futile musings when a consitutional amendment needs 3/4 of states to sign and 2/3 of reps to sign ...considering half the states and thier reps would never sign it because they get so much power and money per capita from the way things are it's a waste of time to read this.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
It isn't a necessarily waste, it is a long shot for sure, but diligent education the population could lead to a non-violent revolution where as a nation we elect officials willing to see such a plan though.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,405
8,581
126
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
It isn't a necessarily waste, it is a long shot for sure, but diligent education the population could lead to a non-violent revolution where as a nation we elect officials willing to see such a plan though.

brainwashing for teh pwn!
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
It isn't a necessarily waste, it is a long shot for sure, but diligent education the population could lead to a non-violent revolution where as a nation we elect officials willing to see such a plan though.

Why on earth would a state like wyoming (and about 24 others) give thier power away? If anything, more education on the issue would have it's citizenry less willing, since 166,000 of wyomings people count as 555,000 californians.