Remington 700 rifle under fire..

Analog

Lifer
Jan 7, 2002
12,755
3
0
remingtonx-large.jpg



The manufacturer of the world's most popular hunting rifle has been wrestling for decades with a critical safety issue, and at least twice considered a nationwide recall of the gun, according to corporate insiders and internal documents revealed in a ten-month CNBC investigation.
But the Remington Arms Company has never alerted the public to the internal concerns, and insists the gun is free of defects, despite thousands of customer complaints.
The controversy over the 700 is explored in a CNBC Original documentary, "Remington Under Fire: A CNBC Investigation," premiering Wednesday, Oct. 20 at 9 p.m. ET/PT.
The Remington Model 700-series rifle—with more than five million sold—is famous for its accuracy and smooth trigger. In addition to being popular with hunters and target shooters, a version of the 700 is also widely used by law enforcement and military snipers.
"The Model 700 is the most popular, reliable, accurate and trusted bolt-action rifle in the world, with over five million rifles produced and billions of rounds fired over nearly five decades," Remington says in a statement to CNBC.
But the customer complaints, and more than 75 lawsuits, have alleged the 700 is susceptible to firing without the trigger being pulled. At least two dozen deaths and more than 100 injuries have been linked to accidental discharges involving the 700's trigger mechanism.
They include the death in 2000 of nine-year-old Gus Barber of Manhattan, Montana, who was killed on a family hunting trip when his mother's Remington 700 went off as she was unloading it. Barbara Barber has said she is certain her hand was nowhere near the trigger. Her husband Rich Barber, who witnessed the accident, learned within days about similar reported incidents involving the 700.
"I went to the funeral home and looked Gus right square in the eye and I said, 'Son, it ends here and now'," Barber said. He would devote the next ten years to finding answers about what caused his son's death, and is sharing much of his findings for the first time.
Trigger Trouble
The 700 series of rifles dates back to the 1940s, when Remington—which had been purchased a decade earlier by the giant chemical company DuPont—was transitioning from a major supplier of the war effort to a more consumer-oriented company. DuPont, which sold Remington in 1993, declined to be interviewed, referring inquiries to Remington.
The rifle series—which debuted with the Remington 721—featured a unique trigger system patented by a young Remington engineer named Merle "Mike" Walker. Walker has called his design "a perfect trigger," with a smooth pull favored by expert shooters.
According to Walker's patent, the secret was a tiny piece of metal called a "trigger connector," which is mounted loosely inside the firing mechanism. But critics, including ballistics experts who have been hired to testify against the company, say small amounts of rust, debris, or even a small jolt can cause the trigger connector to become misaligned, forcing the trigger itself to lose contact with the rest of the firing mechanism.
Then, the gun can be fired when other parts are operated, such as the safety or the bolt. Barbara Barber says her Remington 700 discharged as she moved the safety to the off position to unload the gun. Others have reported their rifles discharging when they opened, closed or even touched the bolt.
Remington attributes all the incidents to improper maintenance, unsafe gun handling or other actions by the user such as unauthorized adjustments of the trigger.
"Both Remington and experts hired by plaintiff attorneys have conducted testing on guns returned from the field which were alleged to have fired without a trigger pull," Remington's statement says, "and neither has ever been able to duplicate such an event on guns which had been properly maintained and which had not been altered after sale."
"The Model 700, including its trigger mechanism, has been free of any defect since it was first produced," the company adds.
But internal documents obtained by CNBC show that in 1948—before the gun went on the market—Mike Walker himself proposed a design change to prevent the trigger's internal parts from falling out of alignment.
Other documents show the added cost for Walker's "trigger block" came to pennies per gun, but with the rifle already over budget, officials decided against making a change.
Recall Debate and Design Changes
Documents show that in later years, Remington decided at least twice—in 1979 and 1994—to abandon the idea of a nationwide recall of the 700 series, in part because officials feared it would undercut their message to the public about firearm safety, including making certain the gun is pointed in a safe direction and not becoming overly reliant on the gun's safety mechanism.
"If proper firearms safety rules are followed, no accidental injuries would ever occur," Remington says in its statement.
But former employees interviewed by CNBC and testifying in court cases have claimed that Remington also was careful not to disclose to customers that others had complained about inadvertent discharges. Instead, these employees say, they were instructed to say that every instance was unique.
Remington has made some changes in the rifle. In 1982, it eliminated a feature called a "bolt lock," which required the user to switch off the safety in order to unload the gun—a common source of inadvertent discharges.
But Remington did not publicize the change until 2002. That year, Remington came closest to a recall. The company offered—for a $20 fee—to retrofit existing rifles, removing the bolt lock so they could be unloaded with the safety on. The so-called "Safety Modification Program" was part of a settlement with the Barber family, whose rifle was among millions produced before 1982 with a bolt lock.
"The Barber family knows it has our deepest sympathies," Remington said in a press release at the time.
But the overall design of the trigger remained the same, and complaints and lawsuits over inadvertent discharges persisted.
In 2007, partly in response to the lawsuits, Remington introduced a new trigger system for the 700 called the X-Mark Pro. The controversial trigger connector is gone, and the safety includes a trigger block, just as Mike Walker proposed in 1948.
But the Walker trigger is still used in Remington's 770 rifle, as well as older models of the 700 still on sale at retailers worldwide. The trigger is also in Remington sniper rifles supplied to the military, which recently awarded Remington a $28 million contract.
And Remington never instituted a recall of the five million Remington 700s already sold.
"Despite any careless reporting to the contrary," Remington says in its statement, "the gun's use by millions of Americans has proven it to be a safe, trusted and reliable rifle."


http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/manufacturing/2010-10-20-remington-700-trigger-cnbc_N.htm
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,425
14,829
146
Guns kill people? What amazing insight.

Is it possible that there's a defect? Sure...but I'm sure MANY of those accidental deaths were just that ...accidents.

I prefer the Winchester Model 70 myself.
 

MotF Bane

No Lifer
Dec 22, 2006
60,801
10
0
Okay, 24 deaths and 100 injuries from 5,000,000 units sold of an item designed to kill things. Shall we see how many deaths and injuries result from every 5,000,000 cars sold; something not even made for killing purposes?
 

Numenorean

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 2008
4,442
1
0
Hey - if these people practiced proper gun safety, then nobody would have been hurt. Or most likely. Why was the muzzle pointed at that kid? Apparently she was willing to kill her kid, otherwise she wouldn't have had the muzzle pointed at him. Idiots.
 

pontifex

Lifer
Dec 5, 2000
43,804
46
91
They include the death in 2000 of nine-year-old Gus Barber of Manhattan, Montana, who was killed on a family hunting trip when his mother's Remington 700 went off as she was unloading it. Barbara Barber has said she is certain her hand was nowhere near the trigger.


WTF!?!?!?!? Why is your gun pointed at you son in the first fucking place!?!?!?!??!?

And she's certain her finger wasn't near the trigger. yeah i bet...if she failed to follow one of the basics of firearm safety i'm sure she failed at the others too.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
WTF!?!?!?!? Why is your gun pointed at you son in the first fucking place!?!?!?!??!?

And she's certain her finger wasn't near the trigger. yeah i bet...if she failed to follow one of the basics of firearm safety i'm sure she failed at the others too.

It's possible she was pointing it down at a low angle while fucking with it and her son walked in front of it. Even a shot to the leg can kill you.

I've had people do shit like that before. We're drinkin beers and shooting stuff and someone walks IN FRONT of me even though they can clearly see that I'm aiming a loaded gun and I have 1 eye closed.
 

pontifex

Lifer
Dec 5, 2000
43,804
46
91
It's possible she was pointing it down at a low angle while fucking with it and her son walked in front of it. Even a shot to the leg can kill you.

I've had people do shit like that before. We're drinkin beers and shooting stuff and someone walks IN FRONT of me even though they can clearly see that I'm aiming a loaded gun and I have 1 eye closed.

yeah, guns and alcohol, there's a great mix... :rolleyes:
 

Numenorean

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 2008
4,442
1
0
It's possible she was pointing it down at a low angle while fucking with it and her son walked in front of it. Even a shot to the leg can kill you.

I've had people do shit like that before. We're drinkin beers and shooting stuff and someone walks IN FRONT of me even though they can clearly see that I'm aiming a loaded gun and I have 1 eye closed.

And why wasn't her son taught proper safety then?

I sure as fuck wouldn't have walked in front of any gun when I was that age. Hell I reloaded bullets at that age.

And WHAT THE FUCK WERE YOU DRINKING AND SHOOTING FOR YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE???
 

thecoolnessrune

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2005
9,673
583
126
WTF!?!?!?!? Why is your gun pointed at you son in the first fucking place!?!?!?!??!?

And she's certain her finger wasn't near the trigger. yeah i bet...if she failed to follow one of the basics of firearm safety i'm sure she failed at the others too.

This. Sorry but your gun aims at two things. The object you intend to kill, and perpendicular to the ground on the side you're holding it on. That's it. This is BASIC gun safety and regardless of how unsafe the gun is, if basic gun safety had been used the kid would still be alive.

Methinks the parents are looking for justification and comfort to dull the fact that her recklessness killed her son.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
yeah, guns and alcohol, there's a great mix... :rolleyes:
Don't worry, it's mostly water. If you spill beer in the chamber you just need to let the gun dry out before you can shoot it again. If it's a little sticky, try cleaning it out with some methanol or something.

Anyway, it's possible the bullet bounced off a rock and hit the kid.
 

SarcasticDwarf

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2001
9,574
2
76
This. Sorry but your gun aims at two things. The object you intend to kill, and perpendicular to the ground on the side you're holding it on. That's it. This is BASIC gun safety and regardless of how unsafe the gun is, if basic gun safety had been used the kid would still be alive.

Methinks the parents are looking for justification and comfort to dull the fact that her recklessness killed her son.

Sure, but it is damn hard NOT to point a firearm in an unsafe direction at some point when handling a firearm. Granted, many of these cases were probably stupidity, but just because you are handling your firearm in the safest practical manner it does not mean it is *safe*.
 

thecoolnessrune

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2005
9,673
583
126
Sure, but it is damn hard NOT to point a firearm in an unsafe direction at some point when handling a firearm. Granted, many of these cases were probably stupidity, but just because you are handling your firearm in the safest practical manner it does not mean it is *safe*.

I think when I was helping train local kids in gun safety one of the first things the instructor said to the kids are "guns are never 'safe'".

However, while it may be hard to not point it in an unsafe direction, its certainly not impossible. I was stupid when I was 8 or so and accidentally discharged a BB gun on concrete when I was a kid (did a no-no and had the safety off when I was getting ready to raise and shoot).

I got a lucky warning to the danger of firearms (pulling out an embedded BB was better than a bullet in my leg), but the only one I injured was myself. I was dumb enough to raise the gun to target with the safety off but still not stupid enough to point the gun at my brother while I emptied it (which required turning the gun on its side and shaking the BBs out)
 

SarcasticDwarf

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2001
9,574
2
76
I think when I was helping train local kids in gun safety one of the first things the instructor said to the kids are "guns are never 'safe'".

Bingo. I carry every day and shoot most weekends. Sure, there are some very good, disciplined experts that are absolutely safe all the time. Then there is the other 99.9% of the population. Even when trying to be safe and being careful it is only a matter of time before you do *something*. All you can do is hope that nothing really bad happens.

Add a firearm with either mechanical issues or an unsafe design and the chances of someone getting hurt go way up.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,601
167
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
I hunt. My kids have hunted. My wife has handled my guns. I have a lot of friends with guns. I think I can honestly say that I've never had a gun, loaded or not loaded, pointed at me. And, my gun has never been pointed at another person, even for a moment.
 

Howard

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
47,982
11
81
If their guns fire when the trigger has not been pulled, I would see that as a problem. Accidental death is still death, whether the victims are ridiculed or not.
 

Numenorean

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 2008
4,442
1
0
I hunt. My kids have hunted. My wife has handled my guns. I have a lot of friends with guns. I think I can honestly say that I've never had a gun, loaded or not loaded, pointed at me. And, my gun has never been pointed at another person, even for a moment.

Yup. Unless people can suddenly fly, you can always be pointing it up while unloading. That is how I unload my shotguns.

Now, there is the possibility of a bullet fired up in the air coming back down and injuring someone, but when out hunting, in remote areas this is highly unlikely to happen. It would also probably not kill someone.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
What great journalism...doesn't give you the statistics of accidental deaths of the average rifle.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
What great journalism...doesn't give you the statistics of accidental deaths of the average rifle.

Yup.

There is something like 800 accidental deaths (total) every year.

Here we have 24 since 1982 when the supposed safety feature was removed.

24 out of 22,400 or 0.1%

Amazing.

Now I wonder what type of market share shipping 5 million units gets you?

Well the FBI believes there is something like 200 million guns in private hands.
That would be a 2.5% market share for those 5 million units.

2.5% > 0.1%
 
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Lanyap

Elite Member
Dec 23, 2000
8,289
2,385
136
The press needs to interview this guy about gun safety: :D

http://www.ktbs.com/news/25442193/detail.html


I bought a 700 ADL from Academy last year but waited on buying a scope. The clerk told me to bring the rifle back when I bought a scope and they would boresight it. He said to bring it back in the box or let them come out to my car and get it because other customers tend to freak out when you walk into the store with a bare rifle.