Remember The $2 Billion Border Fence? Whoops...Our Bad...It's Actually $30 Billion

jpeyton

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Aug 23, 2003
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Text

By Spencer S. Hsu and Griff Witte

The Bush administration's proposal to secure the nation's borders with a high-tech "virtual fence" is likely to cost far more than the $2 billion that industry analysts initially estimated, possibly up to $30 billion, a government watchdog agency warned yesterday.

According to the Homeland Security Department inspector general, the ambitious plan to deploy sensors, cameras and other surveillance technology along 6,000 miles of the borders with Canada and Mexico runs the risk of runaway costs because of poorly defined objectives and a vastly overstretched contracting staff at the department.

The dramatically higher estimates, delivered to House members by Inspector General Richard L. Skinner, injected a new dose of skepticism into the national debate to curb illegal immigration, which has focused in large part on gaining control of the borders.

Critics have charged that a Republican-led Congress and President Bush approved legislation with much fanfare this fall authorizing the construction of a 700-mile fence along a third of the Mexican frontier without funding the work.

Now, the feasibility of the Bush administration's preferred plan, to which Congress has dedicated $1.2 billion and which is beginning on a pilot basis along a 28-mile stretch south of Tucson, drew fresh doubts from Congress as it moves into Democratic control.

Immigration-policy experts said the red flags raised over the border-security initiative could increase pressure on Congress to act on other measures they say are needed, such as stepping up enforcement against U.S. employers who hire illegal workers, cracking down on immigrants who overstay their visas, and overhauling legal immigration channels.

"If it's going to cost 8 to 30 billion dollars," asked Deborah W. Meyers, a senior policy analyst at the Migration Policy Institute, ". . . is that really the most effective way of achieving the policy goal?"

Bush administration allies said the report underscores the need for a guest-worker program, which the president has proposed, to meet the demand for labor in this nation and reduce pressure at the border by illegal crossers.

Members of a House homeland security oversight panel stressed yesterday how the government's poor track record on border enforcement undermined their confidence. A much smaller attempt in the 1990s to deploy remote-sensing technology on the border "started as a $2 million program and turned into a quarter-billion-dollar disaster," said Rep. Mike Rogers (R-Ala.), becoming "a poster child of government waste and mismanagement."

"It seems like deja vu all over again," said Rep. Kendrick B. Meek (D-Fla.).

Rep. Mark Edward Souder (R-Ind.) contrasted the administration's assertion that it could gain control of the border by 2009 with what the White House was prepared to pay for. Souder said he was "baffled" by the department's selection in September of aerospace giant Boeing Co. to lead the open-ended effort without more certainty about final cost.

"It could be between 2 and 30 billion dollars, you're not sure which? . . . So it's pie in the sky, 'give us your best shot'?" Souder said. "It just seems extraordinary."


Gregory Giddens, director of the DHS Secure Border Initiative program, and Deborah J. Spero, deputy commissioner of Customs and Border Protection, said cost estimates are premature because the administration has not settled on a strategy or decided what it will buy. The cost could be far lower and, responding to congressional pressure, DHS will provide a more detailed blueprint of its plans by Dec. 4.

"We do not have a cost estimate publicly," Giddens said.

Industry sources also expressed surprise at the inspector general's estimate, which ranged from $8 billion to $30 billion. The lower figure had been discussed informally, according to people familiar with competition among Boeing and four other firms. The consensus estimate given publicly, though, was that the project would be worth $2 billion to $2.5 billion.

Former DHS inspector general Clark Kent Ervin said agency officials have underestimated the cost of major programs in the past, partly to sell them to Congress and partly because DHS contracting officers were overwhelmed. In August, 69 of 252 jobs in the office managing the Secure Border Initiative Network project were filled, Skinner reported, and plans call for two-thirds of contract overseers to be contractors.

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What a surprise. The Bush administration and a Republican Congress hands an open-ended, skys-the-limit contract to defense contractor Boeing. The project hasn't even started and we're already expecting cost overruns to be 1500% higher than predicted; by the time it's all said and done, the fence will be a multi-billion dollar debacle that immigrants will dig tunnels under.
 

imported_Shivetya

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2005
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Thirty Billion or 300 Hundred Billion, we need it.

The cost to put people down there to watch it would be worse without having some means to slow the attempts to cross it.

Face it, if we want to have a secure border down there we have to pay for it. There is no magic pixie dust we can just sprinkle and make the problem go away.

Runaway spending? No. We just have unrealistic expectations. The government can't do something for free, its our tax money. Considering the lives lost and at risk from just illegals driving this cost is a pittance.

 

Wheezer

Diamond Member
Nov 2, 1999
6,731
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Jesus...if you are going to put up a fence...put up a god damned fence....don't piss around.

We have THOUSANDS of people in prison...not all violent offenders who need to be "rehabilitated".

Get them out there to dig some holes and pour some concrete, lay some block and put up some razor wire...I don't understand why the hell it is so complicated.

#1- it puts up a fence
#2- cheap labor
#3- it gets the non-violent offenders out of prison and gives them something constructive to do (no pun intended)

oh wait...we are talking about the government.




 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
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Originally posted by: Wheezer
Jesus...if you are going to put up a fence...put up a god damned fence....don't piss around.

We have THOUSANDS of people in prison...not all violent offenders who need to be "rehabilitated".

Get them out there to dig some holes and pour some concrete, lay some block and put up some razor wire...I don't understand why the hell it is so complicated.

#1- it puts up a fence
#2- cheap labor
#3- it gets the non-violent offenders out of prison and gives them something constructive to do (no pun intended)

oh wait...we are talking about the government.

Shame on you...you know that violates their rights, right?
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
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Is this the one that all of 4 democrat senators voted against? Curse that republican majority!
 

dyna

Senior member
Oct 20, 2006
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"If it's going to cost 8 to 30 billion dollars," asked Deborah W. Meyers, a senior policy analyst at the Migration Policy Institute, ". . . is that really the most effective way of achieving the policy goal?"

answer:

YES
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
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All the estimates have been saying that the fence would cost ~30 billion, ever since talk of illegal immigration reform came up a couple years ago. IIRC both sides critisized Bush's bill because it only allocated 2 billion, which all parties knew was only 1/10th of the required funding. This lead the media to denounce the bill for legalizing illegal immigrants but being completely disingenuous about securing the border first.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
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If it actually keeps illegals out, the money will be made up pretty quickly.

Anyway, government projects always overrun don't they? Isn't that a law of nature?
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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Most figured that the funds were to build a pilot (proof of concept), not the complete package.

There was no way that such a thing (using technology as a base) could happen within that type of budget.
 

Corbett

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2005
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This thread is typical of Jpeyton and other on ATOT. Complain when the fence is not being constructed, and complain when it costs more than they thought. Either way, if it has anything remotely to do with Bush, they complain.

And last I checked, Bush was the one threatening to veto the funding, nice try though Jpeyton.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
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I'm sll for building a fence, but something seems out of whack in these figures? $8 billion to build 700 miles of fence? Lets see, $8,000,000,000/700 miles=$11,428,571/ mile which is $2164 per foot????

And that's using the low end of the estimate? It could be triple that!

That can't be, did I do my math right?
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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Originally posted by: Wheezer
Jesus...if you are going to put up a fence...put up a god damned fence....don't piss around.

We have THOUSANDS of people in prison...not all violent offenders who need to be "rehabilitated".

Get them out there to dig some holes and pour some concrete, lay some block and put up some razor wire...I don't understand why the hell it is so complicated.
#1- it puts up a fence
#2- cheap labor
#3- it gets the non-violent offenders out of prison and gives them something constructive to do (no pun intended)

oh wait...we are talking about the government.

I agree.

I don't personally care much for all the complicated electro-gagdetry crappola. It'll prolly just be stolen (and resold to Uncle Sam- wash, rinse, repeat etc).

Fern
 

babylon5

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2000
1,363
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In addition to fence, our National Guards should be recalled from Iraq and patrol border. I think now they got 4 Unmanned Drones at the border. They could use many more drones with night vision and heat sensing to alert National Guards to stop drug dealers and criminals.
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
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Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
I'm sll for building a fence, but something seems out of whack in these figures? $8 billion to build 700 miles of fence? Lets see, $8,000,000,000/700 miles=$11,428,571/ mile which is $2164 per foot????

And that's using the low end of the estimate? It could be triple that!

That can't be, did I do my math right?

It's not a 4' garden fence. I assume its going to be very tall double-walled chain link with barbs. Possibly concrete in some portions. Including materials, construction, transportation, maintenance, and labor $2k per foot is probably about right.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
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Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
I'm sll for building a fence, but something seems out of whack in these figures? $8 billion to build 700 miles of fence? Lets see, $8,000,000,000/700 miles=$11,428,571/ mile which is $2164 per foot????

And that's using the low end of the estimate? It could be triple that!

That can't be, did I do my math right?

Wouldnt surprise me. Highways typically cost about 15 million a mile and light rail 20-25 million mile.

Anybody who thought we could build 700 miles of fence on a 2 billion dollar budget is a baffoon.
 

Wheezer

Diamond Member
Nov 2, 1999
6,731
1
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Originally posted by: chucky2
Originally posted by: Wheezer
Jesus...if you are going to put up a fence...put up a god damned fence....don't piss around.

We have THOUSANDS of people in prison...not all violent offenders who need to be "rehabilitated".

Get them out there to dig some holes and pour some concrete, lay some block and put up some razor wire...I don't understand why the hell it is so complicated.

#1- it puts up a fence
#2- cheap labor
#3- it gets the non-violent offenders out of prison and gives them something constructive to do (no pun intended)

oh wait...we are talking about the government.

Shame on you...you know that violates their rights, right?

I understand that there are a lot of bleeding hearts that would feel that way, those same people b!tch and complain about how China is taking over as a world power because they can produce cheaper products....gee wonder how they do it?

Perhaps it's because they don't get all caught up in the hole "prisoners have rights too" bullsh!t.

Don't get me wrong I don't agree that they should work 18-20+ hours a day in the hot sun with no water or food, but they can certainly work an 8-10 hour day with breaks.

maybe if certain people in this country would not get so caught up in "violating others rights" we may just be able to take a step forward instead of 2 back.




 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
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Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
I'm sll for building a fence, but something seems out of whack in these figures? $8 billion to build 700 miles of fence? Lets see, $8,000,000,000/700 miles=$11,428,571/ mile which is $2164 per foot????

And that's using the low end of the estimate? It could be triple that!

That can't be, did I do my math right?

Wouldnt surprise me. Highways typically cost about 15 million a mile and light rail 20-25 million mile.

Anybody who thought we could build 700 miles of fence on a 2 billion dollar budget is a baffoon.


Proposal: To patch and extend U.S.-Mexico border fence along all 1952 miles of southern border, adding high-tech TV cameras, microphones, lighting, motion and other electronic sensors, with civilian labor, donations, and maintenance teams, for less than $5 per foot or $50 million

http://www.borderfenceproject.com/

I don't knowthe specs of this fence, but for the kind of money there talking here you ought to be able to build a wall, not a fence.

Besides, I'd use cheap prison labor for this project, and all the illegals I could round up.
 

jackace

Golden Member
Oct 6, 2004
1,307
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Par for the course anymore. This is the reason I'm against the universal healthcare thing. Who knows how much that will end up costing us. IMHO we need to keep as many things out of governmental control as possible. Everything is just way to corrupt and way to many people take a cut when the government is paying.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
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Only 700 miles of 1952 miles of border will be fenced.

Tunnels can be dug under the fence, just like they have been dug under current fencing.

Costs for this project will soar; I think $30 billion will be a low-ball estimate, considering this is a government project. Remember Bush's "prescription drug coverage" AKA "big-pharma billion dollar handouts"...the proposed cost and the actual cost were vastly different.
 

MustISO

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,927
12
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I can't even believe that someone actually thought "Hey, let's just put up a fence". I mean are these people actually running a county.

How about just putting up scarecrows. That should work just as well.
 

StepUp

Senior member
May 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: Slew Foot
Originally posted by: Shivetya
There is no magic pixie dust we can just sprinkle and make the problem go away.

Yes there is, it's called, "land mines". :)

I would not wish land mines upon anyone.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,320
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Originally posted by: Corbett
This thread is typical of Jpeyton and other on ATOT. Complain when the fence is not being constructed, and complain when it costs more than they thought. Either way, if it has anything remotely to do with Bush, they complain.

And last I checked, Bush was the one threatening to veto the funding, nice try though Jpeyton.

When the Op( jpeyton) posts nowadays-- we call it the jpeyton effect@@!!
lol...so true-- This thread is typical of Jpeyton and other on ATOT. Complain when the fence is not being constructed, and complain when it costs more than they thought. Either way, if it has anything remotely to do with Bush, they complain.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
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$30 billion is a drop in the bucket for our government.

That about 1 percent of our total federal budget.