Religous people

[DrPizza]

I was discussing the Big Bang and evolution with a substitute teacher the other day while bored and helping to monitor the cafeteria (end of the school year, having the extra staff helps avoid foodfights)

Anyway, she asked me to explain miracles. I asked her what she meant by a miracle, because if she referred to anything that couldn't be explained by science as attributable to God, then she's setting her religion up for failure if science should ever figure out the solution, ie if we were here 500 years ago and someone was performing magic tricks, we might think of them as either miracles (or else the devil's work or witchcraft)

Well, anyway, she went on to explain that people at her church recovered from fatal diseases, on a pretty regular basis. She gave plenty of examples, such as someone who had cancer one week, was told they had months to live, then suddenly a week later, there was no trace... Things like that. I didn't doubt her stories, but there's probably a little more to them. She attributed all these people's lives being saved to prayers from the people in her church. In fact, she claimed that most of the time, the people they prayed for got better.

Now, this brings me to my question, and if you want

cliffnotes

then this is all you need to read. If you believe in God and Heaven... and that Heaven is better than it is on Earth. Then, why, when someone's terminally ill, do you pray for them to get better?? Wouldn't that be greed - I want the person here, not in heaven?

Sorry if this sounds like flame bait or something... I've sincerely been curious about this for years, as I've swung back and forth between believer and agnostic.

 

[Gurck]

The Big Band = ?

Aerosmith? Metallica?



As far as someone having cancer one week & being cancer-free the next, has to be a misdiagnosis. Who made the diagnosis, a real doctor? If so, is s/he a religious zealot? I ask because I'm sure there are more rural areas of the world where religion is predominant and a priest or somesuch might be the one to make the diagnosis, and "how could a man of God be wrong?" some might ask... Or it could be just a garden-variety mistake. Even if things like this did happen, who says it must be proof of a deity's existence? At any rate, on to your original question/reason for posting/etc. - imo people who would believe in religion generally don't get that far in their thinking, and so it's a non-issue. You're absolutely right; it's hypocritical and indicates that perhaps their (people who pray for someone not to die) faith is lacking.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: Gurck
The Big Band = ?

Aerosmith? Metallica?

lmao... fixed!

 

[DrPizza]

what'd I do? Stump the ATOT people??!

 

God wants you to be alive.

 

[Analog]

I can give you my opinion. Life is a gift from God. Therefore, since it is a gift, then it should be handled thankfully. You take care of that gift, since it is a one of a kind thing. You pray for people to keep enjoying that gift, even though heaven is out there.

 

[her209]

We accept the reality we are presented with.

 

[FoBoT]

with that logic, jesus should have been killing people to get them to heaven sooner instead of healing them

it just doesn't work that way, we are supposed to be here/this life

 

[XZeroII]

Originally posted by: yellowfiero
I can give you my opinion. Life is a gift from God. Therefore, since it is a gift, then it should be handled thankfully. You take care of that gift, since it is a one of a kind thing. You pray for people to keep enjoying that gift, even though heaven is out there.

(Most) Every living being seems to have a strong desire to live. We are no different.

 

[StageLeft]

Well I look forward to retiring and being well off and comfortable and playing with grand kids. But, would I skip the next 40 years to get there? Nope, I enjoy the ride along the way

 

[Kadarin]

It's because we use the concept of Heaven as a crutch to provide meaning to our miserable (or not so miserable) lives, but deep down, we really don't believe it and thus, the survivial instinct kicks in.

 

[luv2chill]

Has anyone ever done any official research on the recovery rates of people who are prayed for vs. not prayed for? I would think that could put a damper in the notion that prayer is actually saving these people.

And don't get me wrong, I'm open to either answer... just curious as to whether there is anything measurable in these assertions.

I've never really felt right praying for anything. Everything goes according to God's "plan" (or so they say) so who am I to feel like I can alter that plan? In my experience (albeit subjective) everything seems to work out for the best anyway regardless of whether I prayed for it to be that way or not.

Do all sects of Christianity really agree on what the aim of prayer is? Because I see and hear a lot of people using prayer to ask for certain things and that just doesn't mesh with me.

l2c

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: yellowfiero
I can give you my opinion. Life is a gift from God. Therefore, since it is a gift, then it should be handled thankfully. You take care of that gift, since it is a one of a kind thing. You pray for people to keep enjoying that gift, even though heaven is out there.

Exactly what I was going to post.

Originally posted by: luv2chill
Has anyone ever done any official research on the recovery rates of people who are prayed for vs. not prayed for? I would think that could put a damper in the notion that prayer is actually saving these people.

l2c

And I believe that you would be disappointed. While I know of no research like what you described, I do know that most doctors agree that patient attitude and optimism is a key factor in recovery from a serious illness. That a patient with a positive attitude and a strong will to live is more likely to recover than a negative patient. For many people, prayer provides that positive attitude and reason to live.

 

[luv2chill]

Please don't put it that way. I already said that I was open to either conclusion... I was simply asking if scientific research had ever come to conclusions that differed from the very subjective "power of prayer" attitudes.

Studies on positive attitude's effect on healing have been mixed. It cannot be said with any assuredness that one group always fares better than another.

I guess here's where my red flags come up.

Two three-year old children at the same church both become stricken with leukemia. The church body rallies around the two sick youths and form prayer chains, ask for God's healing, etc.

One of the kids dies and the other recovers.

Now, how do Christians reconcile the outcome with the act of prayer? I assume the probable answer is "God works in mysterious ways"/"God's will be done". But did the prayer save the kid that lived? If the church hadn't prayed for the one kid that lived would she have died? If so, why does prayer save some and not others?

I know that no one has the answers to these questions, but I thought I'd throw them out there anyway because it seems to be that people don't give a whole lot of rational thought to whether they ought to be asking god for this or that thing. It seems to me that the true aim of prayer is meditation, to bring one more in resonance with god's ways... to change the "pray-er" instead of the "pray-ee".

And perhaps the reality is that it doesn't matter to people what prayer should consist of, only that they feel compelled to do it and will.

I hope no one take any offense... I am honestly intrigued by this subject.

Meanwhile, here's a link to an excellent Newsweek story from last year regarding the role of faith in healing. It doesn't draw any conclusions, but gives some good info on both sides of the topic.

l2c

 

[Quixfire]

When someone is ill or near death I pray for God?s will to be done and that the family and friends are given strength and guidance if the person leaves this world for another place, be it heaven or hell.

I also pray for the person to be saved.

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: yellowfiero
I can give you my opinion. Life is a gift from God. Therefore, since it is a gift, then it should be handled thankfully. You take care of that gift, since it is a one of a kind thing. You pray for people to keep enjoying that gift, even though heaven is out there.

Exactly what I was going to post.

Originally posted by: luv2chill
Has anyone ever done any official research on the recovery rates of people who are prayed for vs. not prayed for? I would think that could put a damper in the notion that prayer is actually saving these people.

l2c

And I believe that you would be disappointed. While I know of no research like what you described, I do know that most doctors agree that patient attitude and optimism is a key factor in recovery from a serious illness. That a patient with a positive attitude and a strong will to live is more likely to recover than a negative patient. For many people, prayer provides that positive attitude and reason to live.

To do a meaningful study on the effect of prayer, the subject of the prayers must not know that he or she is being prayed for. This removes to a large extent the spoiling effect of positive attitude and optimism resulting from the knowledge that others care for him or her.

 

[Alchemist99]

Originally posted by: luv2chill
Has anyone ever done any official research on the recovery rates of people who are prayed for vs. not prayed for? I would think that could put a damper in the notion that prayer is actually saving these people.

And don't get me wrong, I'm open to either answer... just curious as to whether there is anything measurable in these assertions.

I've never really felt right praying for anything. Everything goes according to God's "plan" (or so they say) so who am I to feel like I can alter that plan? In my experience (albeit subjective) everything seems to work out for the best anyway regardless of whether I prayed for it to be that way or not.

Do all sects of Christianity really agree on what the aim of prayer is? Because I see and hear a lot of people using prayer to ask for certain things and that just doesn't mesh with me.

l2c

I have seen news stories about this exact thing and believe it or not there was strong statistical evidence that people who were prayed for showed a faster and more significant improvement than their counter parts.
Positive thoughts have the same effect umm there was a experiment done in New York to meditate to reduce crime and there was also a significant statistical reduction, I think around 30%. You should see the movie waking life, it sheds some insight into these anomaly?s. Just so you know I'm agnostic and not a fan of organized religion but I find these studies very intriguing and would contribute teh results more to Quantum Physics than a secular origin.

 

[Vic]

Hmm... perhaps I was confused. I assumed that the afflicted would be actively involved in the prayer process. I do not believe in faith healing.

 

[EMPshockwave82]

becasue no one wants the loved one to pass on even if it is better... they want to be with the person for longer