A friend of mine had a debate with some random person on the aol IM'er the other day. Below is a transcript of the discussion. My friend is "C" and the other person is "S."
___________________________________________________
S: Hi
C: hello
S: whats up?
S: what are you doing?
C: reading, you?
S: attempting to write a Report
S: so, how has your day been?
C: boring so far
S: I hear you
C: where are you from?
S: Stafford, Va
S: an hour outside of D.C.
S: et tu?
C: cool, I lived around there before
C: I live in Houston now
S: really? cool
C: yeah I was in Winchester, WV
S: I've been there
C: $hitty little town
S: eh, they all become that way unless you keep busy
S: so, what are you reading?
C: stuff about vampires....
S: for school, or for personal recreation
C: my friend mentioned something last night and I realized I know almost nothing about vampires, and I decided I want to know
S: oh
C: yeah
C: I hate it when I'm ignorant about stuff
S: so what does the thing on your profile mean
C: which one?
S: the one on the bottom
C: the god thing?
S: yeah
C: belief in god = loss of logic and rational thinking
S: did you write that yourself, or did you find that somewhere else?
C: actually, it's my friend's quote, but he asked his name not to be put up
with it
S: oh, so its just a quote and you don't believe it
C: no, I believe it totally
C: we're both atheists
S: so you honestly don't believe in a single uncreated supreme being?
C: nope
C: I believe in nature
S: wow, most people won't go that far, that is more of a risk than
agnosticism
S: so you believe that nature produces all things on its own
S: by chance
C: I'm not apathetic enough to be agnostic
C: no, I believe nature controls the flow of things.....i.e. everything
works in harmony
S: well, I think that agnostics realize that they don't believe in God, but
they don't want to prove that they believe in God by saying that they are
athiests
C: so you're saying atheists believe in god?
S: nature is not Omnipotent, so where did it recieve its existence from?
S: I am saying the very fact that you can argue about a metaphysical truth
proves that there is a possibility of its existitence
C: nature isn't a being
C: you're a christian aren't you?
S: at least in regards to an Omipotent God
S: Christian is a missused term, I think it has lost a lot of its meaning
S: I am simply asking you to prove your veiw point, not to agrue a
Metaphysical truth
C: it's this easy:
C: can you see/hear/touch/taste/fell god?
C: feel*
S: no
C: that's why I don't believe
S: can you see/hear/touch/taste/feel your brain ?
C: um, YEAH
S: you can touch your Brain? right now?
C: not mine, because then I'd be dead, but the brain is a tangible,
physical thing
S: I mean your brain right now
S: that is the question
C: I could see it if I was to go have a CAT scan done
S: no, you would see a picture of your brain
S: that would not be your own brain
C: how would that not be my own brain?
C: you just contradicted yourself
S: it is only an image of your brain
S: you would not look at your brain directly
S: I hope you understand that
C: yes, I do
C: I'm a biology major, I know what you're saying
S: so, by the same rationale that you used, your brain doesn't exist
S: because you cannot see/hear/touch/or taste your brain
S: how brilliant
C: not exactly.....I know that my brain exists because it is controlling my
body right now
C: AND it is a commonly known fact that all humans possess a human brain
S: but I am using the formula that you used to find the Existence of God
S: could it be faulty?
C: no
C: has anyone ever seen god?
S: yes
C: who?
S: History has thousands of Personal experiences of Encounters with God
SI: but, you are focusing on external things
C: yeah, just like history has thousand of people who think they've seen
Elvis or little green men
S: you asked a question, I gave you an answer
S: what part of the world exists of its own power?
C: what do you mean?
S: I mean what person, place or thing you can think of, has existence in
and of itself?
S: that was not created
C: so you're implying that everything has a "creator" then?
S: no, I am implying that everything that we know of receives "existence"
from another source
S: that everything we know of is "contingent" on another source for its
existence
S: think about it for a sec, that is true, no?
C: which can be traced....e.x. I came from my parents, who came from their
parents, etc etc....trees came from seeds, etc.
C: yeah, that is true
C: BUT it doesn't prove that god exists
C: how do you know that time is not cyclical?
S: ok, but you agree that everything is contingent in its state of
existance?
C: AND.....if everything came from something, then where did god come from?
S: ok, if everything is contingent, where does everything recieve its
existance from, and where did creation recieve its initial existance
S: if everything is dependant on something else, then something must be
outside of the existance we are in
C: just because no one knows if or how the universe started, does not mean
I'm going to believe in an invisible entity to answer my questions
C: I'm sorry, I stopped using my security blanket when I was 3
S: this is not a security blanket, what security does it provide?
S: it is pure logic
C: so relying on invisible beings in the sky is pure logic?!
C: I'm saying that society relies on deism to answer questions that they
cannot
C: You're assuming there was a creation. Maybe everything always existed,
and just changes form
S: you agreed that creation is contingent, you must believe that order and
existence are outside of our understanding, not that they come from "God" but
that they are beyond our control
C: no, I don't believe that. yes, I agree that matter does not
spontaeneously appear (funny, because the bible teaches that something comes
from nothing) but I don't believe that order is out of our control
C: in fact, humans have a great talent for screwing up the natural order of
things
C: look at the rise in pollution in the last 100 years
S: you are talking about human things, I am talking about truths, Order is
part of nature, "nature" did not create order, and as we know, there is no such
thing as spontaneous Generation, so putting away "saftey blankets" we know that
all that we see around us was not " just always there" and we know the behavior
of matter
S: so we can deduce that there must be a source of the beginning
S: that is logic
S: and we know that things happen as a result of Cause and Affect, you
know that , you a biology major
S: so you can't be an adult and say that there could not be a source out
side of time and space to "cause" creation, and to "affect" it to continue to
exist
C: so, you believe that just because science has not yet figured out the
beginnings of the universe, that the must be a god who created everything?
S: no,
C: you're just saying that everything comes from something, right?
S: I am saying that using what we know, in science and philosophy and
logic, we can make a reasonable claim to our origins
S: you have some sort of anger against what you misunderstand about God, it
seems that you have a block against accepting that truth, because you are
obviously very intelligent
C: I'm not any more angry at god than you are at Zeus
S: you are a Biology major
C: kind of difficult to be angry at something that doesn't exist
S: we can reason that God exists by our own minds, using Rational thought.
it is reasonable
C: circular reasoning. you're assuming your conclusion
S: no, you are using your understanding of know things to acquire knowledge
of things unknown
S: that is reason
C: you're assuming god exists just because there is no other explanation
for the origin of the universe
S: we know how reality behaves, we can see the finiteness of our world, and
we see that we have higher reasoning abilities, and we have an inate hunger for
truth and Love
S: we see that this truth and Love are not found purely in ourselves, and
for centuries, since the dawn of time, we have seen humans reach toward the
source of their existance, it is logical to see our hunger for God
C: our higher thinking capabilities are thanks to evolution, the hunger for
truth and love are instinctual
S: Evolution?
S: explain what you beleive that to be?
C: ever hear of Darwin?
S: so you believe in Darwins theory of evolution
C: evolution....the constant changing of things over time
C: survival of the fittest, etc
C: adaptation
S: so you believe in all that?
C: yes
S: ok, if we evolved from apes, why are there still apes?
C: I like how you say "in all that" as if it were false
C: HELLO!!!
C: we didn't evolve from apes, I hate it when you people say that!!
C: apes and humans came from a common ancestor
S: that no one has ever found
C: we didn't "come from" apes and apes didn't "come from" humans
C: LUCY
S: and that by genetic deduction we can see is an impossiblity
C: one of the oldest human relatives ever found, displaying both ape and
human qualities
C: how do you figure that, sice there are only small differences in the
genetic structure of apes and humans?
C: AND....you want to talk about genetic impossibilities, look at Adam and
Eve....if we really came from them, we'd all be a bunch of mis-shapen, mentally
retarded inbreds!!
S: I find is sad that you believe in such an outdated and infantile theory,
remember it is a theory, that was thought up because of research done on pigeons
C: evolution is both fact and theory. creationism is neither
S: Evoltution as darwin put it, is a non truth
S: wait one sec,
C: "non-truth" means it is not a proven fact, AKA a THEORY. Just because
it was not a proven fact then (like it is now) doesn't mean it was untrue.
remember, a NON-truth is different than an UN-truth
C: oh, and just so you don't sound *as* stupid in the future, they weren't
pigeons, they were finches
S: oh, that changes everything
C: no, just a little help so you don't keep making an a$$ of yourself by
misquoting theories
S: We will see who has made the A$$ of themselves
C: riiiiight
C: let me guess, when I'm burning in hell, right?
S: you have again shown your "security blanket" theory to be a functioning
part of your reasoning
S: read this, it might clear up some things, then we can talk a bit more
clearly
C: no, I don't need an explanation (security blanket) to satisfy my
curiosity
C: I can just accept that we don't know everything
C: email it, don't i-m
C: I'm at work
S: got ya
S: what are you working on?
C: no I mean I'm at work....in an office
S: what kind of job allows you to have a conversation like this ?
C: I'm a receptionist. as long as the phones aren't ringing, I am free to
read/study/play on the net
S: oh,
S: well, what is your E-mail address?
C: ***deleted*****
S: cool, you have to e-mail me with some of your evolution propaganda to
even it up
C: ok
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was there a winner in this debate? does anyone agree or disagree with their statements?
___________________________________________________
S: Hi
C: hello
S: whats up?
S: what are you doing?
C: reading, you?
S: attempting to write a Report
S: so, how has your day been?
C: boring so far
S: I hear you
C: where are you from?
S: Stafford, Va
S: an hour outside of D.C.
S: et tu?
C: cool, I lived around there before
C: I live in Houston now
S: really? cool
C: yeah I was in Winchester, WV
S: I've been there
C: $hitty little town
S: eh, they all become that way unless you keep busy
S: so, what are you reading?
C: stuff about vampires....
S: for school, or for personal recreation
C: my friend mentioned something last night and I realized I know almost nothing about vampires, and I decided I want to know
S: oh
C: yeah
C: I hate it when I'm ignorant about stuff
S: so what does the thing on your profile mean
C: which one?
S: the one on the bottom
C: the god thing?
S: yeah
C: belief in god = loss of logic and rational thinking
S: did you write that yourself, or did you find that somewhere else?
C: actually, it's my friend's quote, but he asked his name not to be put up
with it
S: oh, so its just a quote and you don't believe it
C: no, I believe it totally
C: we're both atheists
S: so you honestly don't believe in a single uncreated supreme being?
C: nope
C: I believe in nature
S: wow, most people won't go that far, that is more of a risk than
agnosticism
S: so you believe that nature produces all things on its own
S: by chance
C: I'm not apathetic enough to be agnostic
C: no, I believe nature controls the flow of things.....i.e. everything
works in harmony
S: well, I think that agnostics realize that they don't believe in God, but
they don't want to prove that they believe in God by saying that they are
athiests
C: so you're saying atheists believe in god?
S: nature is not Omnipotent, so where did it recieve its existence from?
S: I am saying the very fact that you can argue about a metaphysical truth
proves that there is a possibility of its existitence
C: nature isn't a being
C: you're a christian aren't you?
S: at least in regards to an Omipotent God
S: Christian is a missused term, I think it has lost a lot of its meaning
S: I am simply asking you to prove your veiw point, not to agrue a
Metaphysical truth
C: it's this easy:
C: can you see/hear/touch/taste/fell god?
C: feel*
S: no
C: that's why I don't believe
S: can you see/hear/touch/taste/feel your brain ?
C: um, YEAH
S: you can touch your Brain? right now?
C: not mine, because then I'd be dead, but the brain is a tangible,
physical thing
S: I mean your brain right now
S: that is the question
C: I could see it if I was to go have a CAT scan done
S: no, you would see a picture of your brain
S: that would not be your own brain
C: how would that not be my own brain?
C: you just contradicted yourself
S: it is only an image of your brain
S: you would not look at your brain directly
S: I hope you understand that
C: yes, I do
C: I'm a biology major, I know what you're saying
S: so, by the same rationale that you used, your brain doesn't exist
S: because you cannot see/hear/touch/or taste your brain
S: how brilliant
C: not exactly.....I know that my brain exists because it is controlling my
body right now
C: AND it is a commonly known fact that all humans possess a human brain
S: but I am using the formula that you used to find the Existence of God
S: could it be faulty?
C: no
C: has anyone ever seen god?
S: yes
C: who?
S: History has thousands of Personal experiences of Encounters with God
SI: but, you are focusing on external things
C: yeah, just like history has thousand of people who think they've seen
Elvis or little green men
S: you asked a question, I gave you an answer
S: what part of the world exists of its own power?
C: what do you mean?
S: I mean what person, place or thing you can think of, has existence in
and of itself?
S: that was not created
C: so you're implying that everything has a "creator" then?
S: no, I am implying that everything that we know of receives "existence"
from another source
S: that everything we know of is "contingent" on another source for its
existence
S: think about it for a sec, that is true, no?
C: which can be traced....e.x. I came from my parents, who came from their
parents, etc etc....trees came from seeds, etc.
C: yeah, that is true
C: BUT it doesn't prove that god exists
C: how do you know that time is not cyclical?
S: ok, but you agree that everything is contingent in its state of
existance?
C: AND.....if everything came from something, then where did god come from?
S: ok, if everything is contingent, where does everything recieve its
existance from, and where did creation recieve its initial existance
S: if everything is dependant on something else, then something must be
outside of the existance we are in
C: just because no one knows if or how the universe started, does not mean
I'm going to believe in an invisible entity to answer my questions
C: I'm sorry, I stopped using my security blanket when I was 3
S: this is not a security blanket, what security does it provide?
S: it is pure logic
C: so relying on invisible beings in the sky is pure logic?!
C: I'm saying that society relies on deism to answer questions that they
cannot
C: You're assuming there was a creation. Maybe everything always existed,
and just changes form
S: you agreed that creation is contingent, you must believe that order and
existence are outside of our understanding, not that they come from "God" but
that they are beyond our control
C: no, I don't believe that. yes, I agree that matter does not
spontaeneously appear (funny, because the bible teaches that something comes
from nothing) but I don't believe that order is out of our control
C: in fact, humans have a great talent for screwing up the natural order of
things
C: look at the rise in pollution in the last 100 years
S: you are talking about human things, I am talking about truths, Order is
part of nature, "nature" did not create order, and as we know, there is no such
thing as spontaneous Generation, so putting away "saftey blankets" we know that
all that we see around us was not " just always there" and we know the behavior
of matter
S: so we can deduce that there must be a source of the beginning
S: that is logic
S: and we know that things happen as a result of Cause and Affect, you
know that , you a biology major
S: so you can't be an adult and say that there could not be a source out
side of time and space to "cause" creation, and to "affect" it to continue to
exist
C: so, you believe that just because science has not yet figured out the
beginnings of the universe, that the must be a god who created everything?
S: no,
C: you're just saying that everything comes from something, right?
S: I am saying that using what we know, in science and philosophy and
logic, we can make a reasonable claim to our origins
S: you have some sort of anger against what you misunderstand about God, it
seems that you have a block against accepting that truth, because you are
obviously very intelligent
C: I'm not any more angry at god than you are at Zeus
S: you are a Biology major
C: kind of difficult to be angry at something that doesn't exist
S: we can reason that God exists by our own minds, using Rational thought.
it is reasonable
C: circular reasoning. you're assuming your conclusion
S: no, you are using your understanding of know things to acquire knowledge
of things unknown
S: that is reason
C: you're assuming god exists just because there is no other explanation
for the origin of the universe
S: we know how reality behaves, we can see the finiteness of our world, and
we see that we have higher reasoning abilities, and we have an inate hunger for
truth and Love
S: we see that this truth and Love are not found purely in ourselves, and
for centuries, since the dawn of time, we have seen humans reach toward the
source of their existance, it is logical to see our hunger for God
C: our higher thinking capabilities are thanks to evolution, the hunger for
truth and love are instinctual
S: Evolution?
S: explain what you beleive that to be?
C: ever hear of Darwin?
S: so you believe in Darwins theory of evolution
C: evolution....the constant changing of things over time
C: survival of the fittest, etc
C: adaptation
S: so you believe in all that?
C: yes
S: ok, if we evolved from apes, why are there still apes?
C: I like how you say "in all that" as if it were false
C: HELLO!!!
C: we didn't evolve from apes, I hate it when you people say that!!
C: apes and humans came from a common ancestor
S: that no one has ever found
C: we didn't "come from" apes and apes didn't "come from" humans
C: LUCY
S: and that by genetic deduction we can see is an impossiblity
C: one of the oldest human relatives ever found, displaying both ape and
human qualities
C: how do you figure that, sice there are only small differences in the
genetic structure of apes and humans?
C: AND....you want to talk about genetic impossibilities, look at Adam and
Eve....if we really came from them, we'd all be a bunch of mis-shapen, mentally
retarded inbreds!!
S: I find is sad that you believe in such an outdated and infantile theory,
remember it is a theory, that was thought up because of research done on pigeons
C: evolution is both fact and theory. creationism is neither
S: Evoltution as darwin put it, is a non truth
S: wait one sec,
C: "non-truth" means it is not a proven fact, AKA a THEORY. Just because
it was not a proven fact then (like it is now) doesn't mean it was untrue.
remember, a NON-truth is different than an UN-truth
C: oh, and just so you don't sound *as* stupid in the future, they weren't
pigeons, they were finches
S: oh, that changes everything
C: no, just a little help so you don't keep making an a$$ of yourself by
misquoting theories
S: We will see who has made the A$$ of themselves
C: riiiiight
C: let me guess, when I'm burning in hell, right?
S: you have again shown your "security blanket" theory to be a functioning
part of your reasoning
S: read this, it might clear up some things, then we can talk a bit more
clearly
C: no, I don't need an explanation (security blanket) to satisfy my
curiosity
C: I can just accept that we don't know everything
C: email it, don't i-m
C: I'm at work
S: got ya
S: what are you working on?
C: no I mean I'm at work....in an office
S: what kind of job allows you to have a conversation like this ?
C: I'm a receptionist. as long as the phones aren't ringing, I am free to
read/study/play on the net
S: oh,
S: well, what is your E-mail address?
C: ***deleted*****
S: cool, you have to e-mail me with some of your evolution propaganda to
even it up
C: ok
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was there a winner in this debate? does anyone agree or disagree with their statements?
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