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Religion - the greatest killer of all

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Spyro

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2001
3,366
0
0
Originally posted by: povertystruck
lol read your history spyro. When william the conqueror attacked England he had the pope's blessing. I am sure there are other examples, I leave them to more knowlegeable members.
Ummm, dude. That fis in with the second case. You know, the one where the "wrongdoer's" fellow christians back up the wrong doing. That's when it is the religion's fault. I thought I'd made that pretty clear, so, may I ask, other examples of what?
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: LunarRay
I don't recall Jesus advocating killing anyone. Can't speak for Budda or the other Dietys that may exist. Religions are dogmas that folks follow. If the "church" subscribes to a particular religion the church (the members) is so defined. It is the people who act, however, and often not consistent with their own religion or its teachings.
I believe in Jesus as being God and his Soul being referred to as The Spirit and combined they are God. It is the Trinity of God. Each of the parts is God. Man being created in God's image contains a body and a soul (the mind, I'd guess) and it is the mind of man that controls the body and together they defy their belief and do harm to others. God nor any part of God is evil. To the extent evil is done it is evil that causes it to occur. If one believes in God one must also believe in the devil. The evil is the devil's work and the devil's religion has as its dogma to undue good and cause evil..
So, are you suggesting that killing done in the name of a particular religion is not really the religion's fault? That there's the potential for evil in all men, and sometimes, while they may wrap themselves in religion there's no causality between them? In other words, they've strayed from their religion and therefore the religion itself is blameless?
Not quite. Evil is as evil does. If evil creates a Jim Jones type religion and gathers followers and the followers kill a congressman because Jim Jones said so and it is supported by that religions dogma then the religion is evil. This is why I have a direct link with Jesus because Jim Bakkers and Jimmy Swaggerts are perverters of Good Religion (another evil) like the cat in Waco. The evil of the Devil can take the word good and turn it into ice cream because ice cream is good..

I edit to add... one must discern good from evil based on the teachings they believe are true. It is in this descernment that the teachings themselves can be moved by the human into a religion of evil. Evil is as Evil does... simple.. (to me)
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
0
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: XZeroII
Religion has also saved many lives. Some people need it in there lives or they would fall into depression or something like that.

I give you the 'one sided arguement' award for presenting only one side of an issue and basing your beliefs on it. Nothing wrong with that, but you get the award.
It has? :p

People can get over depression; that's why religion has been called the OPIATE of the people. It keeps people stupid and non questioning.

You give no examples because religion has been a force for war.

More wars in the history of mankind have been fought for religious reasons than any other. (as just ONE example) The Roman Catholic Inquisition is just one part of this Church's bloody history - think of the crusades. If the Catholic Church still had political power, they would still torture and kill their religious opponents today.

edited

 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: XZeroII
Religion has also saved many lives. Some people need it in there lives or they would fall into depression or something like that.

I give you the 'one sided arguement' award for presenting only one side of an issue and basing your beliefs on it. Nothing wrong with that, but you get the award.
It has? :p

People can get over depression; that's why religion has been called the OPIATE of the people. It keeps people stupid and non questioning.

You give no examples because religion has been a force for war.

More wars in the history of mankind have been fought for religious reasons than any other. (as just ONE example) The Roman Catholic Inquisition is just one part of this Church's bloody history - think of the crusades. If the Catholic Church still had political power, they would still torture and kill their religious opponents today.

edited
Hello Apoppin :)

The people of the religion perverted its dogma into justifying their actions. But, I suppose David was a warier king. But, then along came Jesus embraced the Torah and nothing he said would lead me to think he thought war as a proper adventure. In fact, he spoke of the importance of his kingdom vs this one.. So a religion that uses the Word of God to wage War is Evil and Perverted. The Word of God is not. IMO

 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Not quite. Evil is as evil does. If evil creates a Jim Jones type religion and gathers followers and the followers kill a congressman because Jim Jones said so and it is supported by that religions dogma then the religion is evil. This is why I have a direct link with Jesus because Jim Bakkers and Jimmy Swaggerts are perverters of Good Religion (another evil) like the cat in Waco. The evil of the Devil can take the word good and turn it into ice cream because ice cream is good..

I edit to add... one must discern good from evil based on the teachings they believe are true. It is in this descernment that the teachings themselves can be moved by the human into a religion of evil. Evil is as Evil does... simple.. (to me)
Why does it seem like so much killing is caused by those who wrap themselves in religion? It happens for other reasons too, of course, but this thread was started by the OP pointing to the Bombay bombings that caused 50 dead. The Muslims and Hindus have been killing each other @ nearly similar levels as the Palestinians and Israelis. Are these people just not understanding their own religion? More importantly: Would they have killed anyway, not taking into account their religion?
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
0
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: XZeroII
Religion has also saved many lives. Some people need it in there lives or they would fall into depression or something like that.

I give you the 'one sided arguement' award for presenting only one side of an issue and basing your beliefs on it. Nothing wrong with that, but you get the award.
It has? :p

People can get over depression; that's why religion has been called the OPIATE of the people. It keeps people stupid and non questioning.

You give no examples because religion has been a force for war.

More wars in the history of mankind have been fought for religious reasons than any other. (as just ONE example) The Roman Catholic Inquisition is just one part of this Church's bloody history - think of the crusades. If the Catholic Church still had political power, they would still torture and kill their religious opponents today.

edited
Hello Apoppin :)

The people of the religion perverted its dogma into justifying their actions. But, I suppose David was a warier king. But, then along came Jesus embraced the Torah and nothing he said would lead me to think he thought war as a proper adventure. In fact, he spoke of the importance of his kingdom vs this one.. So a religion that uses the Word of God to wage War is Evil and Perverted. The Word of God is not. IMO
Hello

Then religion is easily perverted.

I well know that Jesus taught his followers to NOT fight. He said his kingdom was not of this world.

However, there are NO true followers of Christ today. ALL the "christian" religions stand ready to fight - even each other.

Let's look at N. Ireland . . .the Catholic vs Protestant thing is not political - it's the continuation of a RELIGIOUS dispuyte for hundreds of years.

Israel is full of religious nuts - their respective organized religions condone MURDER as right cause they are "chosen".

:p


 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Deal,
Why does it seem like so much killing is caused by those who wrap themselves in religion? It happens for other reasons too, of course, but this thread was started by the OP pointing to the Bombay bombings that caused 50 dead. The Muslims and Hindus have been killing each other @ nearly similar levels as the Palestinians and Israelis. Are these people just not understanding their own religion? More importantly: Would they have killed anyway, not taking into account their religion?[/quote]
*********

In India the Muslim and Hindi were at each others throat all the time even after Mountbatten got them to agree on Pakistan. This kind of violence is the result of a different core belief. You can't consider "if there were no religions anywhere". No Deity of any kind is an impossibility. Human kind are forced to believe in a higher power, generally. Atheists just are an anomaly. It is also the propensity for human kind to seek power. Power over what ever they can rule. Anything that furthers that ideal is sought out and justified in whatever manner possible. You cannot separate the faith and the action of the person. You cannot say "if he were a Catholic he'd not do that" because he ain't.
All the worlds religions are based on some deity and some human defines the ideology. Dr. Moonbeam would opine, I'm sure, that we are all full of self hate and as the ideology is defined this hate filters in. To the extent the person is free of hate so is the dogma. I am much simpler in my approach. I say there is either Good or Evil and it is self evident. And evident by observation. Bombing is evil and if it is appropriate to do so by virtue of a religious faith then the religion is evil and by extension the bomber is evil as are the acts. Even if committed in the furtherance of his belief. Good and Evil. The trick is to define what is Good and what is Evil. To define this we need a rule. Who creates this rule and how evil is he or they. So again the circle closes. We are left with a belief that defines Good and Evil, we embrace whichever one makes sense and accept it is different than the ones we don't embrace. This is true of the branches of religion that are branches because they accept most but not all of what they branched off of.

I edit to add.. China it is said is Atheist. I don't accept that in my context. Their deity is the state and they learn not to question it. They believe, just in a different deity. A different higher power. They are without knowledge of options.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
0
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Deal,
Why does it seem like so much killing is caused by those who wrap themselves in religion? It happens for other reasons too, of course, but this thread was started by the OP pointing to the Bombay bombings that caused 50 dead. The Muslims and Hindus have been killing each other @ nearly similar levels as the Palestinians and Israelis. Are these people just not understanding their own religion? More importantly: Would they have killed anyway, not taking into account their religion?
*********

In India the Muslim and Hindi were at each others throat all the time even after Mountbatten got them to agree on Pakistan. This kind of violence is the result of a different core belief. You can't consider "if there were no religions anywhere". No Deity of any kind is an impossibility. Human kind are forced to believe in a higher power, generally. Atheists just are an anomaly. It is also the propensity for human kind to seek power. Power over what ever they can rule. Anything that furthers that ideal is sought out and justified in whatever manner possible. You cannot separate the faith and the action of the person. You cannot say "if he were a Catholic he'd not do that" because he ain't.
All the worlds religions are based on some deity and some human defines the ideology. Dr. Moonbeam would opine, I'm sure, that we are all full of self hate and as the ideology is defined this hate filters in. To the extent the person is free of hate so is the dogma. I am much simpler in my approach. I say there is either Good or Evil and it is self evident. And evident by observation. Bombing is evil and if it is appropriate to do so by virtue of a religious faith then the religion is evil and by extension the bomber is evil as are the acts. Even if committed in the furtherance of his belief. Good and Evil. The trick is to define what is Good and what is Evil. To define this we need a rule. Who creates this rule and how evil is he or they. So again the circle closes. We are left with a belief that defines Good and Evil, we embrace whichever one makes sense and accept it is different than the ones we don't embrace. This is true of the branches of religion that are branches because they accept most but not all of what they branched off of.

I edit to add.. China it is said is Atheist. I don't accept that in my context. Their deity is the state and they learn not to question it. They believe, just in a different deity. A different higher power. They are without knowledge of options.[/quote]So your long reply seems to support MY idea that most religions are easily perverted and their followers use it for evil. The proof of their preverted beliefs is in their ACTIONS not their self-serving words.

In the Bible, the Israelites were Ordered - by Yahweh (that's Jesus' Dad) - to EXTERMINATE their (non-beliving) neighbors - Man, Woman and Child - . .. the Jews of today seem to be right in line with their bloodthirsty religion from the beginning 'till now. Their RELIGION is at fault. :p

edit

 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: LunarRay
In India the Muslim and Hindi were at each others throat all the time even after Mountbatten got them to agree on Pakistan. This kind of violence is the result of a different core belief. You can't consider "if there were no religions anywhere". No Deity of any kind is an impossibility. Human kind are forced to believe in a higher power, generally. Atheists just are an anomaly. It is also the propensity for human kind to seek power. Power over what ever they can rule. Anything that furthers that ideal is sought out and justified in whatever manner possible. You cannot separate the faith and the action of the person. You cannot say "if he were a Catholic he'd not do that" because he ain't.
You can certainly consider absence of religion hypothetically. Further, I don't see how humans are forced to believe in a higher power. Just like anything else, religion is a choice. No one, with the possible exception of citizens of the theocracies in this world, are forced to believe anything they don't want to. It seems to me that differences in core beliefs are what cause conflict. If you look at the "hotspots" of conflict around the planet, it's almost always a religious schism of some kind. Predominantly, these hotspots are located where groups of Muslims back up to some other group of non-Muslims. Not to disparage Muslims, but more to make my point.

All the worlds religions are based on some deity and some human defines the ideology. Dr. Moonbeam would opine, I'm sure, that we are all full of self hate and as the ideology is defined this hate filters in. To the extent the person is free of hate so is the dogma. I am much simpler in my approach. I say there is either Good or Evil and it is self evident. And evident by observation. Bombing is evil and if it is appropriate to do so by virtue of a religious faith then the religion is evil and by extension the bomber is evil as are the acts. Even if committed in the furtherance of his belief. Good and Evil. The trick is to define what is Good and what is Evil. To define this we need a rule. Who creates this rule and how evil is he or they. So again the circle closes. We are left with a belief that defines Good and Evil, we embrace whichever one makes sense and accept it is different than the ones we don't embrace. This is true of the branches of religion that are branches because they accept most but not all of what they branched off of.

I edit to add.. China it is said is Atheist. I don't accept that in my context. Their deity is the state and they learn not to question it. They believe, just in a different deity. A different higher power. They are without knowledge of options.
So perhaps religion is yet another reason to hate. The hate may come from within, or from perceived slights against your faith, but it manifests nonetheless as religious violence. I still maintain that removing religion from the equation, removes another reason to hate from the human population. Humans may still fall back on other perceived differences (e.g. nationality, race, stances on various issues, etc.) and still hate, but without religion perhaps we would actually get along better as a species.
 

Flyermax2k3

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2003
3,204
0
0
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: XZeroII
Religion has also saved many lives. Some people need it in there lives or they would fall into depression or something like that.

I give you the 'one sided arguement' award for presenting only one side of an issue and basing your beliefs on it. Nothing wrong with that, but you get the award.
It has? :p

People can get over depression; that's why religion has been called the OPIATE of the people. It keeps people stupid and non questioning.

You give no examples because religion has been a force for war.

More wars in the history of mankind have been fought for religious reasons than any other. (as just ONE example) The Roman Catholic Inquisition is just one part of this Church's bloody history - think of the crusades. If the Catholic Church still had political power, they would still torture and kill their religious opponents today.

edited
Hello Apoppin :)

The people of the religion perverted its dogma into justifying their actions. But, I suppose David was a warier king. But, then along came Jesus embraced the Torah and nothing he said would lead me to think he thought war as a proper adventure. In fact, he spoke of the importance of his kingdom vs this one.. So a religion that uses the Word of God to wage War is Evil and Perverted. The Word of God is not. IMO
Hello

Then religion is easily perverted.

I well know that Jesus taught his followers to NOT fight. He said his kingdom was not of this world.

However, there are NO true followers of Christ today. ALL the "christian" religions stand ready to fight - even each other.

Let's look at N. Ireland . . .the Catholic vs Protestant thing is not political - it's the continuation of a RELIGIOUS dispuyte for hundreds of years.

Israel is full of religious nuts - their respective organized religions condone MURDER as right cause they are "chosen".

:p

I have to disagree with your "there are NO true followers of Christ today" statement. If by this statement you mean there are no religions that truly follow Christ, I can't exactly disagree with you there, most modern religions are perversions of the truth they claim to represent. If, however, you mean literally what you stated that there are no true followers of Christ, I wholeheartedly disagree with you. While there may not be very many of us, we do exist. No man knows what lies in another man's heart, only G-d knows.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,355
4,069
126
Everybody is good, even murderers. Murderers only kill people who need to die. It may take real mental effort to see they need to die, but they do, because no man kills unjustly.

So the problem isn't religion or politics or race or creed or any of the tools in the name of which man kills. Man kills because he can rationalize, because he can rationalize anything. The question is, 'How can man become honest?".
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: XZeroII
Religion has also saved many lives. Some people need it in there lives or they would fall into depression or something like that.

I give you the 'one sided arguement' award for presenting only one side of an issue and basing your beliefs on it. Nothing wrong with that, but you get the award.
It has? :p

People can get over depression; that's why religion has been called the OPIATE of the people. It keeps people stupid and non questioning.

You give no examples because religion has been a force for war.

More wars in the history of mankind have been fought for religious reasons than any other. (as just ONE example) The Roman Catholic Inquisition is just one part of this Church's bloody history - think of the crusades. If the Catholic Church still had political power, they would still torture and kill their religious opponents today.

edited
Hello Apoppin :)

The people of the religion perverted its dogma into justifying their actions. But, I suppose David was a warier king. But, then along came Jesus embraced the Torah and nothing he said would lead me to think he thought war as a proper adventure. In fact, he spoke of the importance of his kingdom vs this one.. So a religion that uses the Word of God to wage War is Evil and Perverted. The Word of God is not. IMO
Hello

Then religion is easily perverted.

I well know that Jesus taught his followers to NOT fight. He said his kingdom was not of this world.

However, there are NO true followers of Christ today. ALL the "christian" religions stand ready to fight - even each other.

Let's look at N. Ireland . . .the Catholic vs Protestant thing is not political - it's the continuation of a RELIGIOUS dispuyte for hundreds of years.

Israel is full of religious nuts - their respective organized religions condone MURDER as right cause they are "chosen".

:p

You bet. Us human kind are just as evil as can be. We live in the devil's playground. What is going on is insanity. I personally look directly to the source. I don't need someone to tell me what this or that means.
When Jesus comes back I'll be looking down and if I have a portable computer I'll post the highlights..:)
I may have to revert to HJD1 so as to confuse the bad guy.. :)

 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Deal,
Why does it seem like so much killing is caused by those who wrap themselves in religion? It happens for other reasons too, of course, but this thread was started by the OP pointing to the Bombay bombings that caused 50 dead. The Muslims and Hindus have been killing each other @ nearly similar levels as the Palestinians and Israelis. Are these people just not understanding their own religion? More importantly: Would they have killed anyway, not taking into account their religion?
*********

In India the Muslim and Hindi were at each others throat all the time even after Mountbatten got them to agree on Pakistan. This kind of violence is the result of a different core belief. You can't consider "if there were no religions anywhere". No Deity of any kind is an impossibility. Human kind are forced to believe in a higher power, generally. Atheists just are an anomaly. It is also the propensity for human kind to seek power. Power over what ever they can rule. Anything that furthers that ideal is sought out and justified in whatever manner possible. You cannot separate the faith and the action of the person. You cannot say "if he were a Catholic he'd not do that" because he ain't.
All the worlds religions are based on some deity and some human defines the ideology. Dr. Moonbeam would opine, I'm sure, that we are all full of self hate and as the ideology is defined this hate filters in. To the extent the person is free of hate so is the dogma. I am much simpler in my approach. I say there is either Good or Evil and it is self evident. And evident by observation. Bombing is evil and if it is appropriate to do so by virtue of a religious faith then the religion is evil and by extension the bomber is evil as are the acts. Even if committed in the furtherance of his belief. Good and Evil. The trick is to define what is Good and what is Evil. To define this we need a rule. Who creates this rule and how evil is he or they. So again the circle closes. We are left with a belief that defines Good and Evil, we embrace whichever one makes sense and accept it is different than the ones we don't embrace. This is true of the branches of religion that are branches because they accept most but not all of what they branched off of.

I edit to add.. China it is said is Atheist. I don't accept that in my context. Their deity is the state and they learn not to question it. They believe, just in a different deity. A different higher power. They are without knowledge of options.
So your long reply seems to support MY idea that most religions are easily perverted and their followers use it for evil. The proof of their preverted beliefs is in their ACTIONS not their self-serving words.

In the Bible, the Israelites were Ordered - by Yahweh (that's Jesus' Dad) - to EXTERMINATE their (non-beliving) neighbors - Man, Woman and Child - . .. the Jews of today seem to be right in line with their bloodthirsty religion from the beginning 'till now. Their RELIGION is at fault. :p

edit[/quote]

Jesus IS his dad.. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are each God and combined God and God is good. Humans made religion. God lets us do what we want. Religion means to me just simply an organized group of like minded believers. They may invoke the name of God in their actions but, good is good and evil evil. God told us what was what..

 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Deal,
You can certainly consider absence of religion hypothetically. Further, I don't see how humans are forced to believe in a higher power. Just like anything else, religion is a choice. No one, with the possible exception of citizens of the theocracies in this world, are forced to believe anything they don't want to. It seems to me that differences in core beliefs are what cause conflict. If you look at the "hotspots" of conflict around the planet, it's almost always a religious schism of some kind. Predominantly, these hotspots are located where groups of Muslims back up to some other group of non-Muslims. Not to disparage Muslims, but more to make my point.
So perhaps religion is yet another reason to hate. The hate may come from within, or from perceived slights against your faith, but it manifests nonetheless as religious violence. I still maintain that removing religion from the equation, removes another reason to hate from the human population. Humans may still fall back on other perceived differences (e.g. nationality, race, stances on various issues, etc.) and still hate, but without religion perhaps we would actually get along better as a species.
*******
Humans find comfort in believing therefore they believe. They believe in what they have before them be it the state, Islam, Judism, Christianity, Hindi etc.. where and to whom were they born. There is great comfort in being able to know (by faith) that if you do X you'll go to Paradise and have lots of pleasure. Some would think the faster the better.
Why is Islam and Judism at odds with each other and why is the US called the great satan. If you were doing deals in Iraq you'd feel the same way. (Probably) They, the muslims believe WE have perverted the Word of God by accepting Jesus (a mere prophet to Islam) as The son of God.. Jesus didn't say he was a carpenter he said he was God. Can you imagine how that sits with the Muslim. God hates the false prophet and therefore he hates those who believe in him..
If there was no God and never was it would be created as it was. Maybe it is genetic. Man seems to need to have something to point to and say "the gods say this or that" and the gods rule.. Maybe it is just man finding a source to blame for things "you folks were bad and the gods made your kids sick" I don't know but, I know my God is God... He told me... and who am I to argue. But, he don't want me to go doing evil just good. The question is is our good their good if it is we don't war if it ain't we may and it has been this way for quite some time.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Everybody is good, even murderers. Murderers only kill people who need to die. It may take real mental effort to see they need to die, but they do, because no man kills unjustly.

So the problem isn't religion or politics or race or creed or any of the tools in the name of which man kills. Man kills because he can rationalize, because he can rationalize anything. The question is, 'How can man become honest?".
Man cannot become totaly honest because he will rationalize. He will do what his mind allows. (his soul)
Your first sentence is circular and based on a false premise well two false premises. I do, however see the point you make in the first para... In any event, the mind (soul) perverts and rationalizes.

 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
0
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: XZeroII
Religion has also saved many lives. Some people need it in there lives or they would fall into depression or something like that.

I give you the 'one sided arguement' award for presenting only one side of an issue and basing your beliefs on it. Nothing wrong with that, but you get the award.
It has? :p

People can get over depression; that's why religion has been called the OPIATE of the people. It keeps people stupid and non questioning.

You give no examples because religion has been a force for war.

More wars in the history of mankind have been fought for religious reasons than any other. (as just ONE example) The Roman Catholic Inquisition is just one part of this Church's bloody history - think of the crusades. If the Catholic Church still had political power, they would still torture and kill their religious opponents today.

edited
Hello Apoppin :)

The people of the religion perverted its dogma into justifying their actions. But, I suppose David was a warier king. But, then along came Jesus embraced the Torah and nothing he said would lead me to think he thought war as a proper adventure. In fact, he spoke of the importance of his kingdom vs this one.. So a religion that uses the Word of God to wage War is Evil and Perverted. The Word of God is not. IMO
Hello

Then religion is easily perverted.

I well know that Jesus taught his followers to NOT fight. He said his kingdom was not of this world.

However, there are NO true followers of Christ today. ALL the "christian" religions stand ready to fight - even each other.

Let's look at N. Ireland . . .the Catholic vs Protestant thing is not political - it's the continuation of a RELIGIOUS dispuyte for hundreds of years.

Israel is full of religious nuts - their respective organized religions condone MURDER as right cause they are "chosen".

:p

I have to disagree with your "there are NO true followers of Christ today" statement. If by this statement you mean there are no religions that truly follow Christ, I can't exactly disagree with you there, most modern religions are perversions of the truth they claim to represent. If, however, you mean literally what you stated that there are no true followers of Christ, I wholeheartedly disagree with you. While there may not be very many of us, we do exist. No man knows what lies in another man's heart, only G-d knows.
The topic is religion and I am speaking of (an) organized religion "truly following Christ".

I did not make myself as clear as I wished.

As to the "trinity"; the Jews believed in ONE Yahweh - no 3-in- deal. Jesus never claimed to BE god.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,864
83
91
Let's see; in the 20th Century, we have various forms of government killing ~61 million people in the USSR (1917-1987, the Communist era), 35 million plus in China (1949-present, Communist era), and 20 million in Germany (1933-45, Nazi era). That's over 100 million, and we didn't even have to throw in lesser atrocities, like Vietnam, Cambodia, Japan during the reign of the militarists, and North Korea today. Furthermore, none of those governments were more than nominally influenced by religion. Communist China and the USSR were officially atheist, and actively suppressed religion, as Nazi Germany did to Judaism. And yet it's religion that's got your panties in a bunch.

lets see, the ussr was more religious then you'd think. they worshipped a holy book of dogma from a holy man, and if you rejected this dogma, they'd kill you. sounds like most religions to me:) same goes with china. and well germany was definetly religious. you think they thought themselves simply superior through evolution? no! it was their god given gift of superiority. you think their hatred of jews had athiestic roots? no, it was more religious then anything else. and north korea? they believe in god. they believe that the two dictators they've had so far are gods messengers. now that sounds religious doesn't it? you might twist it around and pretend its not religion, but thats what it really is:p
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Apoppin,
As to the "trinity"; the Jews believed in ONE Yahweh - no 3-in- deal. Jesus never claimed to BE god.
****

I guess I don't belong to any 'religion'. I only follow what Jesus said so for what ever that means I am that. When Jesus was chatting with the leaders of the Temple he was asked (granted the taping system was not hooked up yet) "who are you" etc. etc. at the end he said who he was. If someone mistook what he said and he lets say said I am the Son of God.. given the Trinity that I believe is real and explained earlier he is saying I am God. Or any variation of that. He also said His Kingdom etc.. His Kingdom.. we know of two places... Heaven and Paradise... (hell too but I refer to nice places) which may be the same place.. but, may not be. Given he said to the cat on the cross "this day you'll be with me in Paradise... then after he got up out of the grave and met the lady on the way to meeting with Tom he said "don't touch me.. for I've not yet been with the father" This does two things. Suggests the Father and He are not the same and suggests that if the Father is in heaven Jesus said to the cross guy Paradise that day and Jesus don't lie... so where'd he go. Or maybe God was out busy doing God stuff. I don't know... I only know that Humans are capable of any myriad of devious and evil things and religion is a word and container created by humans for humans.. To my knowledge God didn't create the term and I don't see it on the 10 commandments nor ascribed to Jesus... Thou shalt have my religion before all others... Nope just no other God.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
18,353
10,251
136
Not to get off topic, but has anyone here read Cows, Pigs, Wars and Witches by Marvin Harris? It was required reading in my anthropology studies, and I think a great many of you here in this thread would get a lot of insight from it. Not trying to sound all scholarly or anything, just dropping the name of a great read that would be appreciated by free-thinkers...
 

Ilmater

Diamond Member
Jun 13, 2002
7,516
0
0
Originally posted by: Spyro
Religion - the greatest killer of all
Yup, me and my church are mass murderers.


Dude, I think you're being just a little too broad. Besides, when you add up all of the deaths that are caused by governments and compare those to the religious ones, I think I know which one will count higher.
Read a little lower where I talk about Russia. That's upwards of 20 million people. Don't forget that parts of WWII were religious. The crusades. Lots of death that was caused by religion.
However, the fact is, people don't really NEED religion. Anyone that needs that REALLY just needs counselling. There is something they're not OK with (uncertainty about why we're here or what happens when we die perhaps?), and that can be taken care of with enough therapy.
I'm always amused by people that say this. I'm not neccessarily religious but I do believe in a higher power. Unlike you I know what happens when I die and why I'm here, so I think I'll say that the opposite of what you posted is true. True, there are some real nuts out there, but I seriously doubt that is a universal thing. Islam isn't the only religon out there, and not every Catholic is a pedophile.
You KNOW what happens when you die? Really? So you've died then? No? Oh, then your religion told you what happens when you die and you believe them without question. I don't mean to offend, but think about what you said. Nobody on this earth knows what happens when we die. You're right, Islam isn't the only religion and not all Catholics are pedophiles, but the common link I'm talking about is the fact that far too many murders are caused by religion. Hey, not every man with a lisp is gay, but every gay man has a lisp. (Not that there's anything wrong with that!)
Originally posted by: EXman
Sorry, maybe it's just a rant, but I'm really getting tired of this
Sorry, maybe it's just a rant, but I'm getting tired of these religion bashing threads. just use search function look up "I'm a turd and I want to blame religion" get on with your life.

I think you need to understand religions better before you rant online. Once again use the search function read through some old hate threads.

People like you persecute religious people for no other reason than they are religous...
I need to understand religions better? I was born and raised a Catholic and went to Catholic grade school and high school, most of which explains my animosity towards religion. Organized religion is a crutch to explain the uncertainties of life. Period. It gives people purpose and a measuring stick for their actions. I know what is wrong and right TO ME, and that's enough in my mind. I'm not mean or spiteful to anyone. I'm a very amiable person, truly. But when I see people killing each other because their religion preaches that that's the way to do things, you're darned right I start bashing religion.
Originally posted by: LunarRay
If one believes in God one must also believe in the devil. The evil is the devil's work and the devil's religion has as its dogma to undue good and cause evil.
No offense, but I call b.s. on both accounts. There absolutely does not have to be a devil if there is a God, and I think it's f'ing ridiculous to blame everything bad on the devil and credit God for everything good. Maybe, just maybe, some things just... happen.

In fact, to take this a little farther, while I am agnostic on whether or not there's a God, if there is, I'm 100% certain there's no hell. Why? Because at their most basic levels, our decisions are based on brain chemistry and life experiences. Your brain chemistry makes you predisposed to do things and your life experiences shape those predispositions into actions or inactions. If there is a God, then he is the one that gives you brain chemistry and he is the one that puts you in the situation you're in. How can he punish you if that chemistry and those circumstances turn you into a mass murderer? And if you don't believe that brain chemistry is enough and start throwing the term "free will" around, then first ask someone with a depressed child (say, 6 - 13) what happened when they put their child on medication. Chemicals dictate our feelings and our decisions then, why would you believe that they wouldn't any other time.
Originally posted by: LunarRay
You can't consider "if there were no religions anywhere". No Deity of any kind is an impossibility. Human kind are forced to believe in a higher power, generally. Atheists just are an anomaly.
While I will grant you that atheists are an anomaly, in principle, there definitely IS a possibility that there isn't a deity. How could there not be? It's this simple: have you TRULY spoken to a deity (and don't give me the crap about how you go to church and talk to him because that isn't what I'm talking about). I can't see, hear or touch God, and there is no proof of him outside a novel scribbled on some scrolls and some stories about a guy that lived 2000 years ago that I wasn't there to witness. How do I know that the stories in there aren't just exagerations like many in the Old Testament. The very fact that there is debate about the existence PROVES that there might not be a God. I challenge you to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is a God.

In ancient times, they didn't understand fire so they made a god for it. They didn't understand what made wind blow, so they made a god for it. Everything they didn't understand, they made a god for. As we started to understand these things, the idea of there being a god behind them became preposterous. Therefore, why is it preposterous to think that maybe there isn't a God at all?

My favorite quote on this subject:

You and I are both atheists. When you realize why you reject all of the other possible gods out there, you'll realize why I reject yours.
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
lets see, the ussr was more religious then you'd think. they worshipped a holy book of dogma from a holy man, and if you rejected this dogma, they'd kill you. sounds like most religions to me:) same goes with china. and well germany was definetly religious. you think they thought themselves simply superior through evolution? no! it was their god given gift of superiority. you think their hatred of jews had athiestic roots? no, it was more religious then anything else. and north korea? they believe in god. they believe that the two dictators they've had so far are gods messengers. now that sounds religious doesn't it? you might twist it around and pretend its not religion, but thats what it really is:p
You're absolutely right. In fact, Stalin (the only dictator of communist Russia that I'd truly call evil) had his people call him something close to Hitler's "Fuhrer," but with god-like undertones. I apologize that my Russian History class didn't stick as well as I'd like it to, but the fact is that leadership in Russia was religious to the people of Russia long after Nicholas II was shot by Bolsheviks.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: LunarRay
If one believes in God one must also believe in the devil. The evil is the devil's work and the devil's religion has as its dogma to undue good and cause evil.
No offense, but I call b.s. on both accounts. There absolutely does not have to be a devil if there is a God, and I think it's f'ing ridiculous to blame everything bad on the devil and credit God for everything good. Maybe, just maybe, some things just... happen.

In fact, to take this a little farther, while I am agnostic on whether or not there's a God, if there is, I'm 100% certain there's no hell. Why? Because at their most basic levels, our decisions are based on brain chemistry and life experiences. Your brain chemistry makes you predisposed to do things and your life experiences shape those predispositions into actions or inactions. If there is a God, then he is the one that gives you brain chemistry and he is the one that puts you in the situation you're in. How can he punish you if that chemistry and those circumstances turn you into a mass murderer? And if you don't believe that brain chemistry is enough and start throwing the term "free will" around, then first ask someone with a depressed child (say, 6 - 13) what happened when they put their child on medication. Chemicals dictate our feelings and our decisions then, why would you believe that they wouldn't any other time.

If you believe there is a God then it is reasonable to believe he has no need to lie. He said there was a devil and I believe him. Man was created by God in his likeness. He said so and I believe him. But that was Adam not Eve nor the kids. Evolution and all the affects of all the myriad things that can affect developing life forms (fetus) result in the illnes and death we see. Had Adam not did whaterver that got him ousted from Eden folks would have lived a very long time as many in that age did.

Originally posted by: LunarRay
You can't consider "if there were no religions anywhere". No Deity of any kind is an impossibility. Human kind are forced to believe in a higher power, generally. Atheists just are an anomaly.
While I will grant you that atheists are an anomaly, in principle, there definitely IS a possibility that there isn't a deity. How could there not be? It's this simple: have you TRULY spoken to a deity (and don't give me the crap about how you go to church and talk to him because that isn't what I'm talking about). I can't see, hear or touch God, and there is no proof of him outside a novel scribbled on some scrolls and some stories about a guy that lived 2000 years ago that I wasn't there to witness. How do I know that the stories in there aren't just exagerations like many in the Old Testament. The very fact that there is debate about the existence PROVES that there might not be a God. I challenge you to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is a God.

I don't go to church. I deal directly with my saviour. To much shenanighans for me in the church/religion arena. I also went to Catholic Academy so I naturally know everything :). You may believe there is no God but, how can I accept that or convince you there is if you believe otherwise. Have I spoken with Jesus. Often! What did he say to me, you ask. I don't know. I just ask for one thing. The ability to be the best me I can be and to forgive my sins and accept me into his Kingdom.. that don't hardly require too much of an answer.

In ancient times, they didn't understand fire so they made a god for it. They didn't understand what made wind blow, so they made a god for it. Everything they didn't understand, they made a god for. As we started to understand these things, the idea of there being a god behind them became preposterous. Therefore, why is it preposterous to think that maybe there isn't a God at all?

He was here about 2000 years ago in person. I would only add in a hope you'd consider what you may be rejecting. Eternity is a very long time.. infinte actually. Forever! Would you give up forever today in favor of a few years of 'I don't buy it'. I hope you'd look at God from the other side and work to dispell his existence rather than proove it.

My favorite quote on this subject:

You and I are both atheists. When you realize why you reject all of the other possible gods out there, you'll realize why I reject yours.

To this I say. Nope... you reject yours!..
 

Spyro

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2001
3,366
0
0
You KNOW what happens when you die? Really? So you've died then? No? Oh, then your religion told you what happens when you die and you believe them without question. I don't mean to offend, but think about what you said. Nobody on this earth knows what happens when we die.
It's very difficult to offend me, so go ahead let 'er rip. First of all, my religion never told me anything and if it did I'd be pretty frightened. Hey governments and corporations have pr people, but I doubt that my religion has any particular spokesperson, so I speak for it, so do a lot of other people. Back on topic though, my bible says that when I die I go to heaven. The bible is the word of God, soI believe that. Nobody really has to tell me. I can read so I read that. If you don't believe what I believe then that's OK, because I also believe that there is more than one road to heaven, but its by faith not by works.

Read a little lower where I talk about Russia. That's upwards of 20 million people. Don't forget that parts of WWII were religious. The crusades. Lots of death that was caused by religion.
Alright then, let's get rid of religion and call it something else. Dude, people will be people and that means that there will always be violence. Like this (theoretically speaking of course, pretend that you don't like me): if you wanted to kill me you could use a gun, if guns are outlawed then you could use a bat, if bats were outlawed then you could use a brick, if houses were made out of mud then you could use you fists, if you had carpal tunnel then you could use your feet, if you had a broken ankle then you could use your head, or if you value your mind you could just sit on me. Either way the outcome would be the same and I would be quite dead. Now we get to the fun part where you say what religion you cometted the murder for: you could say that you did it for Allah, Buddha, God, Saurun, Linux, etc, but when it all broils down to it that doesn't matter because you still killed someone, so then you (hopefully) suffer a just punishment for my horrible, untimely demise. In that case the question is now: was it the religions fault, were you really called upon by a higher power to make me your la-z-boy. The answer to that question depends not so much on the texts of that religion but on who is translating those texts. Now I don't mean translating from one language to the other, I mean as in translating from confusing out of order syntax to kitty kibble for the masses. These are the people that control religion and the quetion of whether or not there is something wrong with religion can be traced to them. Are they really moral leaders in touch with whaever that religion is or are they curropt and greedy false-prophets out to make a real killing. Since there are so many religions out there with so many different types of officials I doubt that I can make that assumption right of the back, but I will say this: without complete seperation of church and state the religious leaders *are* the government, possessing the power of both church and state over both pocket and soul. In such a position of power you have to be either an absolute idiot or a great leader to resist corruption, and I doubt that there are very many of either of those in the places that have been mentioned in this thread. And before any of you ask............ Ach, nevermind, I just spilled water in my keyboard :/
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
0
0
alienbabeltech.com
What you guys are forgetting is that religion is the CAUSE of war.

Truly, people would find othe things to fight over - namely nationalism and racism/tribalism - but organized religion stands condemned by HISTORY as bloodguilty; and guilty of causing the most evil atrocities.

What defense do you religious people give to the CRUSADES or the INQUISITION? - only two examples.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: apoppin
What you guys are forgetting is that religion is the CAUSE of war.

Truly, people would find othe things to fight over - namely nationalism and racism/tribalism - but organized religion stands condemned by HISTORY as bloodguilty; and guilty of causing the most evil atrocities.

What defense do you religious people give to the CRUSADES or the INQUISITION? - only two examples.
I think a query into the more recent actions of the Vatican during the period 1937 - 1945 shows just how doing nothing at all is also condemnable.
RE: The Inquisitition. Those Priests must have been drunk with power. I wonder where they reside today after having perverted God into a giver of power to torture. And Richard spent nearly 85% of his time away from England liberating this or that from the bad people.
Someone posted earlier about creating religion. Was it Constantine in 312 who adopted Christianity as the Church of Rome and to appease some of the critics adopted some of the more cherished Idols and Gods that continue today, like Ester (Easter).
God is God and Man is Man and only man has the capacity to be evil.
 

Ilmater

Diamond Member
Jun 13, 2002
7,516
0
0
Originally posted by: LunarRay
If one believes in God one must also believe in the devil. The evil is the devil's work and the devil's religion has as its dogma to undue good and cause evil.
No offense, but I call b.s. on both accounts. There absolutely does not have to be a devil if there is a God, and I think it's f'ing ridiculous to blame everything bad on the devil and credit God for everything good. Maybe, just maybe, some things just... happen.

In fact, to take this a little farther, while I am agnostic on whether or not there's a God, if there is, I'm 100% certain there's no hell. Why? Because at their most basic levels, our decisions are based on brain chemistry and life experiences. Your brain chemistry makes you predisposed to do things and your life experiences shape those predispositions into actions or inactions. If there is a God, then he is the one that gives you brain chemistry and he is the one that puts you in the situation you're in. How can he punish you if that chemistry and those circumstances turn you into a mass murderer? And if you don't believe that brain chemistry is enough and start throwing the term "free will" around, then first ask someone with a depressed child (say, 6 - 13) what happened when they put their child on medication. Chemicals dictate our feelings and our decisions then, why would you believe that they wouldn't any other time.
If you believe there is a God then it is reasonable to believe he has no need to lie. He said there was a devil and I believe him. Man was created by God in his likeness. He said so and I believe him. But that was Adam not Eve nor the kids. Evolution and all the affects of all the myriad things that can affect developing life forms (fetus) result in the illnes and death we see. Had Adam not did whaterver that got him ousted from Eden folks would have lived a very long time as many in that age did.
However, it's also reasonable to believe that God had nothing to do with the creation of the bible. In fact, most religious people base their religion on the bible, when it has absolutely no guarantee that it was written by God. I got into an argument about this subject this weekend, and a friend told me, "But in the bible it is specifically written that God inspired its writing." So what? I could write a book tomorrow and write in it that God inspired me to write it. I could even take a bunch of speed and write it quickly and say that I was empowered by God to write it quickly. There is no proof that the bible was inspired by God just like there is no proof that anything the bible says happened actually happened. Except, of course, that there was a man around 33 A.D. that was apparently claiming to be a messiah. That's it.

More importantly, if there is a God, I don't think he'd lie, but I do think that he wouldn't care one way or another whether or not I believed in him. He'd judge how I lived my life to determine if I went to heaven or not.
Originally posted by: LunarRay
You can't consider "if there were no religions anywhere". No Deity of any kind is an impossibility. Human kind are forced to believe in a higher power, generally. Atheists just are an anomaly.
While I will grant you that atheists are an anomaly, in principle, there definitely IS a possibility that there isn't a deity. How could there not be? It's this simple: have you TRULY spoken to a deity (and don't give me the crap about how you go to church and talk to him because that isn't what I'm talking about). I can't see, hear or touch God, and there is no proof of him outside a novel scribbled on some scrolls and some stories about a guy that lived 2000 years ago that I wasn't there to witness. How do I know that the stories in there aren't just exagerations like many in the Old Testament. The very fact that there is debate about the existence PROVES that there might not be a God. I challenge you to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is a God.
I don't go to church. I deal directly with my saviour. Too much shenanighans for me in the church/religion arena. I also went to Catholic Academy so I naturally know everything :). You may believe there is no God but, how can I accept that or convince you there is if you believe otherwise. Have I spoken with Jesus? Often! What did he say to me, you ask? I don't know. I just ask for one thing. The ability to be the best me I can be and to forgive my sins and accept me into his Kingdom.. that don't hardly require too much of an answer.
So, like I said, if you can't prove to me there is a God, then CLEARLY there might not be one. If there definitely was one, you would be able to prove it to me and everyone else. Do you see what I'm saying? If you KNOW that there is a God, then you have got to be able to prove it to me. If you cannot prove it to me, then you HAVE to accept the possibility that there might not be a God. Otherwise, you're just kidding yourself.

And I don't want to hear the word faith because faith is the lie that keeps on lying.

- "Why do you believe in God?"
- "The bible says it contains the true story of God and says that it was written by men inspired by God to write it."
- "How do you know the bible is real and not just an incredibly popular work of fiction?"
- "I have faith."
- "Faith based on what? The bible?"
- "Yes."
- "So if I read any other book that claimed to contain the 'true' story of who God was and what he wanted and it said that it was inspired by God, I would be in no way wrong if I believed it on its own word, right?"
- "No, that book isn't the bible."
- "But it says that the bible isn't true. How does the bible have more validity than this book? It claims to have true stories about Jesus just like the bible."
- "I have faith that the bible is right and your book isn't."
- "Why can't I say the same thing?"

Do you see how faith is just another way of saying, "I believe what I believe because I believe it"?
In ancient times, they didn't understand fire so they made a god for it. They didn't understand what made wind blow, so they made a god for it. Everything they didn't understand, they made a god for. As we started to understand these things, the idea of there being a god behind them became preposterous. Therefore, why is it preposterous to think that maybe there isn't a God at all?
He was here about 2000 years ago in person. I would only add in a hope you'd consider what you may be rejecting. Eternity is a very long time.. infinte actually. Forever! Would you give up forever today in favor of a few years of 'I don't buy it'. I hope you'd look at God from the other side and work to dispell his existence rather than proove it.
I don't understand why taking the easy way out is the right way to do things. Your claim is that all I have to do is just believe there's a God and I go to heaven, right? (Assuming that the rest of my life is in line; ie. I don't kill anyone, etc.) I struggle every day with whether or not there's a God, and I always come up with the same answer: no proof. I could just give in and believe that there's a God, but I'll tell you now that besides the fact that I'll regret being sent to hell (which I don't believe in either), I won't regret the fact that I didn't just decide that because we found some scrolls in a cave that claim to be the be-all-end-all guide on how to live, I struggled to do what I believed was right.
My favorite quote on this subject:

You and I are both atheists. When you realize why you reject all of the other possible gods out there, you'll realize why I reject yours.
To this I say. Nope... you reject yours!..
*sigh* ... Why didn't I see this coming?
 

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