• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

Religion - the greatest killer of all

Ilmater

Diamond Member
Jun 13, 2002
7,516
0
0
Yesterday's headline:

50 Dead in Bombay After Twin Blasts in Crowded Areas

Let's not kid ourselves, this was clearly a bombing by Islamic terrorists. Today's headline:

Hindu Pilgrims Stampede in India; at Least 32 Dead

What have we learned today, children? If someone else's religion doesn't kill you, surely your own will.

And that's why I sleep soundly on the bed of agnosticism that I make for myself every night.

Organized religion is far more detrimental to civilization in the 21st century than all the drugs in the world combined. I say we spend tens of billions of dollars every year fighting the "God" war to get rid of religion. Instead of trying to protect 1,000,000 heroin addicts from themselves, try protecting me from 10 Islamic fundamentalists (not to pick on one religion, but they are pretty crazy) with the Koran in one hand and a dirty bomb in the other.

And don't think because you're Catholic or Protestant that you're not as crazy as they are. You know, if I were God, I'd strike you down for wasting your time worshipping me for hours every week when you should be getting your ass out there and doing something beneficial instead. Go volunteer at a food pantry or clean out old clothes from your closet that you can give to someone that needs it. Hey, I'd already know I'm all-powerful. I wouldn't need people reminding of that fact over and over every week. Did you think I'd forget? I'm omniscient!

Sorry, maybe it's just a rant, but I'm really getting tired of this and nobody seems to place blame where it belongs. Please post your comments, bad and good. I'd really like to hear them.
 
Jan 12, 2003
3,498
0
0
As much as I hate to cite Nietzsche, I think he outlined the power of religion best in Beyond Good and Evil. He argues that men are drawn to religion for a power they would not have otherwise; how can men/groups without a standing army usurp power from those who do? One could by making themselves a self-proclaimed intermediary between man and god; the interdependency creates a bond no standing army can break...and thus a man who possesses no standing army possesses a power that rivals a standing army. Men of the cloth, he argues, use religion to ascertain power.

 

Ilmater

Diamond Member
Jun 13, 2002
7,516
0
0
I understand your reluctance to quote Neitzsche, but you're right, he hits that nail on the head.
 

shuan24

Platinum Member
Jul 17, 2003
2,558
0
0
I have a simple solution to this all. (You may think its funny, but I actually came up with this a few years ago.)

People used to ask me, 'are you Christian?' I'm like, 'nope, sorry.'
'So are you godless? I feel bad for you...blah blah blah. '

So now, I tell people, yeah, I believe in a god. I believe in myself.

I will think for myself, I will pray for myself, hell, I'd even die for myself. You threaten my religion? (me, really) Then be prepared, because I will die for myself.

I dont have many followers, but I'm looking to expand!

Ever heard of the Spanish Inquisition (sp?) ?
 
Jan 12, 2003
3,498
0
0
Originally posted by: shuan24
I dont have many followers, but I'm looking to expand!


Yes, you do, sir...pick up a book on objectivism...you and those like you who believe they are their own gods, are god-like.

 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
12,572
0
0
Religion has also saved many lives. Some people need it in there lives or they would fall into depression or something like that.

I give you the 'one sided arguement' award for presenting only one side of an issue and basing your beliefs on it. Nothing wrong with that, but you get the award.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,189
8,735
126
They're not even following the basic rules of their own religions in the first place. It's just the crutch they use to justify their evils to their tortured consciences. Try to take it away and they will fight harder than ever. Succeed in taking it away and the entire situation will become that much more depraved.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
As much as I hate to cite Nietzsche, I think he outlined the power of religion best in Beyond Good and Evil. He argues that men are drawn to religion for a power they would not have otherwise; how can men/groups without a standing army usurp power from those who do? One could by making themselves a self-proclaimed intermediary between man and god; the interdependency creates a bond no standing army can break...and thus a man who possesses no standing army possesses a power that rivals a standing army. Men of the cloth, he argues, use religion to ascertain power.
In my opinion, Nietzsche was awesome in many respects as well as a very insightful writer/philosopher. "Die fröhliche Wissenschaft" is an especially good read. His argument on "men of the cloth" seems quite plausable given what has happened over the course of history. What continues happening further reinforces his argument.

Yes, unfortunately, considerable evil has resulted under the guise of otherwise "good" intentions.
 

dpm

Golden Member
Apr 24, 2002
1,513
0
0
"Religion - the greatest killer of all"

I seriously doubt that. Although contagious, Religion's symptoms are more embarrasing than serious. And edged weapons has to beat religion as a killer any day. ;)

Seriously, while I understand your frustration, I think you have the wrong target. Religion isn't the problem, it is merely a symptom. The real problem is simply our humanity, our many flaws, our irrationality; our selfishness, agression and shortsightedness. Sadly, these traits have been useful throughout our species evolution and thus are very hard to drop. This is not to suggest that these shortcomings are the be all and end all of humanity - they are merely the balancing side to our potential for greatness.

Surely, where you hate religion for this, you must hate things like environmentalism, nationalism, provincialism - even things like supporting a sports team - these can provoke similar kinds of agression and violence in people. These things are simply the trigger, the excuse given by the person - while the underlying reason is the character of the individual him/herself.
 

shuan24

Platinum Member
Jul 17, 2003
2,558
0
0
Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Originally posted by: shuan24
I dont have many followers, but I'm looking to expand!


Yes, you do, sir...pick up a book on objectivism...you and those like you who believe they are their own gods, are god-like.
Well they're not following ME, now are they.

 
Jan 12, 2003
3,498
0
0
Originally posted by: shuan24
Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Originally posted by: shuan24
I dont have many followers, but I'm looking to expand!


Yes, you do, sir...pick up a book on objectivism...you and those like you who believe they are their own gods, are god-like.
Well they're not following ME, now are they.

That is the beauty of it; they do not subscribe to the altruistic lifestyle, and thus have no need to follow you :) If you are looking for followers, perhaps you would better served reading Kant...he likes the 'herd' effect.
 

Ilmater

Diamond Member
Jun 13, 2002
7,516
0
0
Originally posted by: dpm
"Religion - the greatest killer of all"

I seriously doubt that. Although contagious, Religion's symptoms are more embarrasing than serious. And edged weapons has to beat religion as a killer any day. ;)

Seriously, while I understand your frustration, I think you have the wrong target. Religion isn't the problem, it is merely a symptom. The real problem is simply our humanity, our many flaws, our irrationality; our selfishness, agression and shortsightedness. Sadly, these traits have been useful throughout our species evolution and thus are very hard to drop. This is not to suggest that these shortcomings are the be all and end all of humanity - they are merely the balancing side to our potential for greatness.

Surely, where you hate religion for this, you must hate things like environmentalism, nationalism, provincialism - even things like supporting a sports team - these can provoke similar kinds of agression and violence in people. These things are simply the trigger, the excuse given by the person - while the underlying reason is the character of the individual him/herself.
You make really good points. Actually, I do hate many things like environmentalism, but only when people are extremists, which is really what I hate in religions (fanatics). PETA sticks out as something I truly hate. Fanatics that think that cows deserve the same treatment as humans.
 

shuan24

Platinum Member
Jul 17, 2003
2,558
0
0
LOL! Why would anybody hate PETA? (Just curious, I really dont know what illegal activities they do or what they did to piss you off)

Yeah those bastard cows dont deserve any respect!! ;)
 

Ilmater

Diamond Member
Jun 13, 2002
7,516
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
They're not even following the basic rules of their own religions in the first place. It's just the crutch they use to justify their evils to their tortured consciences. Try to take it away and they will fight harder than ever. Succeed in taking it away and the entire situation will become that much more depraved.
I would like to refer XZero II to this quote.

A couple weeks ago, some friends and I were out at a bar. Somehow, religion was brought up, and I ended up talking to my friend's girlfriend about it (whom I had just met for the first time that night) while the other three had their own conversation. I found out that she was molested by her grandfather and her last boyfriend used to beat her up. Now she uses religion as the emotional crutch to get her through that. I then realized that I had spent the last 1/2 hour explaining to her why I don't believe God (if there is one) has any effect on our lives on earth. If I had actually convinced her of this, she would have lost it and went right back into depression. The sad thing is, all she really needs to understand is that those people did those things because they were messed up and not because of anything she did.

The conversation ended with me saying nothing because I would not be responsible for sending a woman into therapy.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
17,848
24
81
What have we learned today, children? If someone else's religion doesn't kill you, surely your own will.
As much as I don't agree with that statement on an intellectual level, it sure made me giggle pretty good.

Religion has certainly been a means to an end for many with evil intentions. That is not the same thing as suggesting 'Take away religion and those with evil intentions will no longer have a means to these ends'.
 
Jan 12, 2003
3,498
0
0
Originally posted by: tcsenter
What have we learned today, children? If someone else's religion doesn't kill you, surely your own will.
As much as I don't agree with that statement on an intellectual level, it sure made me giggle pretty good.

Religion has certainly been a means to an end for many with evil intentions. That is not the same thing as suggesting 'Take away religion and those with evil intentions will no longer have a means to these ends'.

Very true; while the ends would stay the same, in the absense of religion, the means would also have to change...basic game theory 101.

 

Ilmater

Diamond Member
Jun 13, 2002
7,516
0
0
Originally posted by: shuan24
LOL! Why would anybody hate PETA? (Just curious, I really dont know what illegal activities they do or what they did to piss you off)

Yeah those bastard cows dont deserve any respect!! ;)
It's not that I hate cows, I just don't think they deserve the same treatment as humans.

For instance, one night I watched a little bit of "Band of Brothers," that show on HBO about WWII. I saw the part where they first went into a concentration camp and realized what was going on. Amazing. It was so incredibly powerful. The very next day I went to work and saw that PETA was comparing our cattle industry to the Holocaust. How f***ing insensitive is that?! Forget sensitive, how terribly WRONG is that?! If they really believe that (and most of them do), they are as misguided as anyone that runs planes into buildings.
 

phillyTIM

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2001
1,940
10
81
Oh lord, just when Politics got pretty bad around here, someone had to start up Religion.

*runs behind my firewall!*
 

shuan24

Platinum Member
Jul 17, 2003
2,558
0
0
Well everything has their goods and their bads.

Example 1: A cow saved by PETA now gets *humane* treatment, saves me from a fire by mooing the fire out. Good for PETA!

Example 2: When I was younger, my local priest use to tell me that him fondling me was considered a good thing in the eyes of the Lord, and that the more frequent trips I make to see him the more mercy god will have on me and my family. Bad for religion!

Point is: everything has their goods and bads, you cant equate one life lost to 10 lives saved.

 

shuan24

Platinum Member
Jul 17, 2003
2,558
0
0
Originally posted by: Ilmater
Originally posted by: shuan24
LOL! Why would anybody hate PETA? (Just curious, I really dont know what illegal activities they do or what they did to piss you off)

Yeah those bastard cows dont deserve any respect!! ;)
It's not that I hate cows, I just don't think they deserve the same treatment as humans.

For instance, one night I watched a little bit of "Band of Brothers," that show on HBO about WWII. I saw the part where they first went into a concentration camp and realized what was going on. Amazing. It was so incredibly powerful. The very next day I went to work and saw that PETA was comparing our cattle industry to the Holocaust. How f***ing insensitive is that?! Forget sensitive, how terribly WRONG is that?! If they really believe that (and most of them do), they are as misguided as anyone that runs planes into buildings.
LOL! You cant take them seriously! If that were me, I would be like, "Oh yeah, well I'm eating a Jew cow tonite bastards!"

 

Ilmater

Diamond Member
Jun 13, 2002
7,516
0
0
Originally posted by: phillyTIM
Oh lord, just when Politics got pretty bad around here, someone had to start up Religion.

*runs behind my firewall!*
Just doing my duty.

And on a completely unrelated note, if we're going to start firing at PETA fanatics, let's get the ACLU in this too. Every once in awhile, I really appreciate what they do, but when they do things like back the North American Man-Boy Love Association in court, I have to say they're extremists in their own rights.

If you've never heard of the ACLU/NAMBLA case...
 
Jan 12, 2003
3,498
0
0
Originally posted by: Ilmater
Originally posted by: phillyTIM
Oh lord, just when Politics got pretty bad around here, someone had to start up Religion.

*runs behind my firewall!*
Just doing my duty.

And on a completely unrelated note, if we're going to start firing at PETA fanatics, let's get the ACLU in this too. Every once in awhile, I really appreciate what they do, but when they do things like back the North American Man-Boy Love Association in court, I have to say they're extremists in their own rights.

If you've never heard of the ACLU/NAMBLA case...

I like you, sir :)

 

shuan24

Platinum Member
Jul 17, 2003
2,558
0
0
I'm sorry Ilmater, but your link is from a biased source. I tried to read it but its hard to form an educated opinion from a biased source.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY