religion in schools

slurmsmackenzie

Golden Member
Jun 4, 2004
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how come i can't lead a prayer on school grounds (not that i would) because it encroaches upon other people's religious beliefs or lack thereof, but my children if they are jewish or JW or whatever have to get up and leave the classroom making a spectacle of themselves when the teacher has christmas, halloween, easter and other activities permeated with religious holiday themes as "learning material"?

does anyone else see the problem with this?

now before you start saying, "it's just christmas" or "it's just easter".... a religious event is a religious event and has levity ESPECIALLY when individuals' beliefs are contrary. just because tom athiest celebrates christmas with his family doesn't take the religious undertones out of it.
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,502
1
81
It has to do with the separation of church and state. :The text of the first amendment is:

? Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. ?

Main article: Establishment Clause of the First Amendment
The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment prohibits the establishment of a national religion by Congress or the preference of one religion over another, or religion over non-religion. Prior to the enactment of the Fourteenth Amendment, and for 60 years thereafter, the courts took the position that the substantive protections of the Bill of Rights did not apply to actions by state governments. Subsequently, under the "incorporation doctrine", certain selected provisions were applied to states. It was not, however, until the middle and later years of the twentieth century that the Supreme Court began to interpret the establishment and free exercise clauses in such a manner as to restrict substantially the promotion of religion by state governments. (For example, in the Board of Education of Kiryas Joel Village School District v. Grumet, 512 U.S. 687 (1994), Justice David Souter, writing for the majority, concluded that "government should not prefer one religion to another, or religion to irreligion".)




People have tried to get all religion of schools but have not been successful yet.
 

teclis1023

Golden Member
Jan 19, 2007
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Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
how come i can't lead a prayer on school grounds (not that i would) because it encroaches upon other people's religious beliefs or lack thereof, but my children if they are jewish or JW or whatever have to get up and leave the classroom making a spectacle of themselves when the teacher has christmas, halloween, easter and other activities permeated with religious holiday themes as "learning material"?

does anyone else see the problem with this?

now before you start saying, "it's just christmas" or "it's just easter".... a religious event is a religious event and has levity ESPECIALLY when individuals' beliefs are contrary. just because tom athiest celebrates christmas with his family doesn't take the religious undertones out of it.

WTF?

Try reorganizing your rant into something readable.

I never got up and left the classroom or made a spectacle of myself when there were Christmas celebrations in school...

So, again I ask...WTF?

 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Why do people want the day off for the holiday, but do not want to recognize the reason for the holiday? Maybe you should work on Christmas if you dont want to celebrate the reason for the Christmas Holiday.

God Bless America.

Christians have Freedom of Speech too!
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
81
Originally posted by: piasabird
Why do people want the day off for the holiday, but do not want to recognize the reason for the holiday? Maybe you should work on Christmas if you dont want to celebrate the reason for the Christmas Holiday.

God Bless America.

Christians have Freedom of Speech too!

The reason for the Christmas holiday is that every year for centuries there had been a winter celebration. Wanting to facilitate and not impede the transition to christianity meant adopting pagan celebrations and transforming them to serve a purpose, i.e. no one knows when Christ was born when they were writing the bible so why not make it around the time of the popular annual winter solstice celebration and while people are already partying for one reason also mention that hey, it's christ's birthday, happy solstice and merry christmas!
 

teclis1023

Golden Member
Jan 19, 2007
1,452
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71
Originally posted by: piasabird
Why do people want the day off for the holiday, but do not want to recognize the reason for the holiday? Maybe you should work on Christmas if you dont want to celebrate the reason for the Christmas Holiday.

God Bless America.

Christians have Freedom of Speech too!

I want the day off because it's the best day to ski. No gentiles cloggin up my lift lines :)
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,423
7,484
136
Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
how come i can't lead a prayer on school grounds (not that i would) because it encroaches upon other people's religious beliefs or lack thereof, but my children if they are jewish or JW or whatever have to get up and leave the classroom making a spectacle of themselves when the teacher has christmas, halloween, easter and other activities permeated with religious holiday themes as "learning material"?

Tip, don't get up and leave.
 

slurmsmackenzie

Golden Member
Jun 4, 2004
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Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
how come i can't lead a prayer on school grounds (not that i would) because it encroaches upon other people's religious beliefs or lack thereof, but my children if they are jewish or JW or whatever have to get up and leave the classroom making a spectacle of themselves when the teacher has christmas, halloween, easter and other activities permeated with religious holiday themes as "learning material"?

Tip, don't get up and leave.

if the celebratory actions of the "learning material" differ with that of one's religious beliefs then leaving the room is essentially the only option for a child not wanting to associate his/herself with the celebration.

and just because you don't get up and leave the class doesn't mean that children, out of respect for their own religious beliefs excuse themselves from the activity, thereby excluding themselves from the classroom. what's so hard to read about that? don't drink in the AM if you're gonna read something other than the comics on the shitter

 

Excelsior

Lifer
May 30, 2002
19,048
18
81
Eh? Our school allowed prayers to be led by students on school grounds, and this was just 4 years ago.
 

slurmsmackenzie

Golden Member
Jun 4, 2004
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Originally posted by: piasabird
Why do people want the day off for the holiday, but do not want to recognize the reason for the holiday? Maybe you should work on Christmas if you dont want to celebrate the reason for the Christmas Holiday.

God Bless America.

Christians have Freedom of Speech too!

at what point did i mention time off from work? i didn't
not that it's pertinent to the discussion, or any of ur business, but i work thanksgiving and other food intensive holidays without holiday pay or the day off. not because of the reasons stated in the intitial post, but because my small business boss is a cheap ass and doesn't have to.

also, one last point. if the church you go to, piasabird, celebrates christmas it is a sham, fake, a fraud, and a dissapointment to the God that requires exclusivity in your worship. worshipping the rebirth of the sun god or whatever pagan belief xmas is associated with is clearly a violation of that. same with easter. "God Bless America" also laughable.... remember when satan offered the kindoms of the world to jesus in exchange for worship? what makes you think God backs America given that satan, as stated of the erroneous bible you undoubtedly thump, clearly is a "controlling party" (or majority shareholder... whichever phrase ur comfortable with) when "kindoms of the earth" are concerned.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,921
47,796
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Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
how come i can't lead a prayer on school grounds (not that i would) because it encroaches upon other people's religious beliefs or lack thereof, but my children if they are jewish or JW or whatever have to get up and leave the classroom making a spectacle of themselves when the teacher has christmas, halloween, easter and other activities permeated with religious holiday themes as "learning material"?

does anyone else see the problem with this?

now before you start saying, "it's just christmas" or "it's just easter".... a religious event is a religious event and has levity ESPECIALLY when individuals' beliefs are contrary. just because tom athiest celebrates christmas with his family doesn't take the religious undertones out of it.

Because you are confusing the difference between action and inaction.
 

slurmsmackenzie

Golden Member
Jun 4, 2004
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Originally posted by: Excelsior
Eh? Our school allowed prayers to be led by students on school grounds, and this was just 4 years ago.

as a private function of a student organization. not over the P.A. system or in every classroom.

 

Excelsior

Lifer
May 30, 2002
19,048
18
81
Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
Originally posted by: Excelsior
Eh? Our school allowed prayers to be led by students on school grounds, and this was just 4 years ago.

as a private function of a student organization. not over the P.A. system or in every classroom.

The former, yes. So you think they should allow it over the PA system?
 

slurmsmackenzie

Golden Member
Jun 4, 2004
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
how come i can't lead a prayer on school grounds (not that i would) because it encroaches upon other people's religious beliefs or lack thereof, but my children if they are jewish or JW or whatever have to get up and leave the classroom making a spectacle of themselves when the teacher has christmas, halloween, easter and other activities permeated with religious holiday themes as "learning material"?

does anyone else see the problem with this?

now before you start saying, "it's just christmas" or "it's just easter".... a religious event is a religious event and has levity ESPECIALLY when individuals' beliefs are contrary. just because tom athiest celebrates christmas with his family doesn't take the religious undertones out of it.

Because you are confusing the difference between action and inaction.

what's to confuse? all children have the right and DUTY to attend school of some sort. so when religious material... and that's what christmas stuff is.... is presented in the classroom as "learning material", sent home as homework, or anything other than extra curricular it forces children who are abiding by their religious rights to alienate themselves by leaving the room.

 

slurmsmackenzie

Golden Member
Jun 4, 2004
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Originally posted by: Excelsior
Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
Originally posted by: Excelsior
Eh? Our school allowed prayers to be led by students on school grounds, and this was just 4 years ago.

as a private function of a student organization. not over the P.A. system or in every classroom.

The former, yes. So you think they should allow it over the PA system?

exactly the opposite. if religious discussion or prayer is explicitly forbidden unless privately organized, then xmas flim flam.... no matter how commercialized it's become, to those who hold their religion sacred it's still a religious event... shouldn't be allowed as well. religious beliefs aside, it's a waste of time anyways.

 

Excelsior

Lifer
May 30, 2002
19,048
18
81
Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
how come i can't lead a prayer on school grounds (not that i would) because it encroaches upon other people's religious beliefs or lack thereof, but my children if they are jewish or JW or whatever have to get up and leave the classroom making a spectacle of themselves when the teacher has christmas, halloween, easter and other activities permeated with religious holiday themes as "learning material"?

does anyone else see the problem with this?

now before you start saying, "it's just christmas" or "it's just easter".... a religious event is a religious event and has levity ESPECIALLY when individuals' beliefs are contrary. just because tom athiest celebrates christmas with his family doesn't take the religious undertones out of it.

Because you are confusing the difference between action and inaction.

what's to confuse? all children have the right and DUTY to attend school of some sort. so when religious material... and that's what christmas stuff is.... is presented in the classroom as "learning material", sent home as homework, or anything other than extra curricular it forces children who are abiding by their religious rights to alienate themselves by leaving the room.

It absolutely does not force them to leave the room. If they leave the room, that was their choice. One could easily argue that "this Christmas stuff" is more cultural than religious anyhow. If I went to school in another country and their culture was different, i'd expect to experience their culture in the classroom and I wouldn't have a problem with it.

 

slurmsmackenzie

Golden Member
Jun 4, 2004
1,413
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Originally posted by: Excelsior
Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
how come i can't lead a prayer on school grounds (not that i would) because it encroaches upon other people's religious beliefs or lack thereof, but my children if they are jewish or JW or whatever have to get up and leave the classroom making a spectacle of themselves when the teacher has christmas, halloween, easter and other activities permeated with religious holiday themes as "learning material"?

does anyone else see the problem with this?

now before you start saying, "it's just christmas" or "it's just easter".... a religious event is a religious event and has levity ESPECIALLY when individuals' beliefs are contrary. just because tom athiest celebrates christmas with his family doesn't take the religious undertones out of it.

Because you are confusing the difference between action and inaction.

what's to confuse? all children have the right and DUTY to attend school of some sort. so when religious material... and that's what christmas stuff is.... is presented in the classroom as "learning material", sent home as homework, or anything other than extra curricular it forces children who are abiding by their religious rights to alienate themselves by leaving the room.

It absolutely does not force them to leave the room. If they leave the room, that was their choice. One could easily argue that "this Christmas stuff" is more cultural than religious anyhow. If I went to school in another country and their culture was different, i'd expect to experience their culture in the classroom and I wouldn't have a problem with it.

of course no one is grabbing them by the arm and making them leave, but they have two choices.... stay and participate, or leave and honor their religion by doing so.
culture??? since when is christmas "american culture"? isn't america a "melting pot" of many cultures? look up christmas and see where it's roots lie... religion. many "cultural practices" of other contries are also rooted in religion.
 

Excelsior

Lifer
May 30, 2002
19,048
18
81
Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
Originally posted by: Excelsior
Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
how come i can't lead a prayer on school grounds (not that i would) because it encroaches upon other people's religious beliefs or lack thereof, but my children if they are jewish or JW or whatever have to get up and leave the classroom making a spectacle of themselves when the teacher has christmas, halloween, easter and other activities permeated with religious holiday themes as "learning material"?

does anyone else see the problem with this?

now before you start saying, "it's just christmas" or "it's just easter".... a religious event is a religious event and has levity ESPECIALLY when individuals' beliefs are contrary. just because tom athiest celebrates christmas with his family doesn't take the religious undertones out of it.

Because you are confusing the difference between action and inaction.

what's to confuse? all children have the right and DUTY to attend school of some sort. so when religious material... and that's what christmas stuff is.... is presented in the classroom as "learning material", sent home as homework, or anything other than extra curricular it forces children who are abiding by their religious rights to alienate themselves by leaving the room.

It absolutely does not force them to leave the room. If they leave the room, that was their choice. One could easily argue that "this Christmas stuff" is more cultural than religious anyhow. If I went to school in another country and their culture was different, i'd expect to experience their culture in the classroom and I wouldn't have a problem with it.

of course no one is grabbing them by the arm and making them leave, but they have two choices.... stay and participate, or leave and honor their religion by doing so.
culture??? since when is christmas "american culture"? isn't america a "melting pot" of many cultures? look up christmas and see where it's roots lie... religion. many "cultural practices" of other contries are also rooted in religion.


If the teachers or school system does now allow them to not take part in the exercises due to religous reasons, they are in the wrong. Ever since I was in school folks could claim religous reasons for getting out of certain "lessons".

Christmas has been a part of the American culture for quite some time now.

Yes it is a melting pot of many cultures. Guess what? Most of the cultures that have made up this melting pot also celebrated a Christmas like holiday in their native land. They helped to create the culture we have now, and the overwhelming majority of the population here celebrates Christmas in some form. So you can sit there and tell me it isn't a significant part of American culture.

And you need to look up Christmas. Its true origins are pagan.

 

CitizenKain

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
4,480
14
76
Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
culture??? since when is christmas "american culture"? isn't america a "melting pot" of many cultures? look up christmas and see where it's roots lie... religion. many "cultural practices" of other contries are also rooted in religion.

Yes, and your point is?

Aside from making yourself look like a raving lunatic, I'm not really sure what you are trying to achieve here.
 

slurmsmackenzie

Golden Member
Jun 4, 2004
1,413
0
0
Originally posted by: Excelsior
Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
Originally posted by: Excelsior
Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
how come i can't lead a prayer on school grounds (not that i would) because it encroaches upon other people's religious beliefs or lack thereof, but my children if they are jewish or JW or whatever have to get up and leave the classroom making a spectacle of themselves when the teacher has christmas, halloween, easter and other activities permeated with religious holiday themes as "learning material"?

does anyone else see the problem with this?

now before you start saying, "it's just christmas" or "it's just easter".... a religious event is a religious event and has levity ESPECIALLY when individuals' beliefs are contrary. just because tom athiest celebrates christmas with his family doesn't take the religious undertones out of it.

Because you are confusing the difference between action and inaction.

what's to confuse? all children have the right and DUTY to attend school of some sort. so when religious material... and that's what christmas stuff is.... is presented in the classroom as "learning material", sent home as homework, or anything other than extra curricular it forces children who are abiding by their religious rights to alienate themselves by leaving the room.

It absolutely does not force them to leave the room. If they leave the room, that was their choice. One could easily argue that "this Christmas stuff" is more cultural than religious anyhow. If I went to school in another country and their culture was different, i'd expect to experience their culture in the classroom and I wouldn't have a problem with it.

of course no one is grabbing them by the arm and making them leave, but they have two choices.... stay and participate, or leave and honor their religion by doing so.
culture??? since when is christmas "american culture"? isn't america a "melting pot" of many cultures? look up christmas and see where it's roots lie... religion. many "cultural practices" of other contries are also rooted in religion.

Christmas has been american culture for quite some time now.

Yes it is a melting pot of many cultures. Guess what? Most of the cultures that have made up this melting pot also celebrated a Christmas like holiday in their native land. They helped to create the culture we have now, and the overwhelming majority of the population here celebrates Christmas in some form. So you can sit there and tell me it isn't a significant part of American culture.

And you need to look up Christmas. Its true origins are pagan.

pagan religion, guy. saturnella is a sun GOD, his rebirth... i.e. the days getting longer is the celebration that constantine mixed with christianity as it's influence in his lands became substantial. christmas is one big compromise of religious beliefs.... and if you believe in God (the god of abraham, ibrahim, or however ur "culture" spells it) there is no compromise... sure he's a loving god, but it's his way or the highway.
 

slurmsmackenzie

Golden Member
Jun 4, 2004
1,413
0
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Originally posted by: CitizenKain
Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
culture??? since when is christmas "american culture"? isn't america a "melting pot" of many cultures? look up christmas and see where it's roots lie... religion. many "cultural practices" of other contries are also rooted in religion.

Yes, and your point is?

Aside from making yourself look like a raving lunatic, I'm not really sure what you are trying to achieve here.

it's the "end is near" sandwich board and bell isn't it? damnit, i knew i should've gone with the turtleneck.

 

maddogchen

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2004
8,905
2
76
honor their religion by leaving the classroom? eh?

I say tell them to sit there and learn someone else's religion. America is a melting pot of religions so sit your butt down and learn about other people's religions and what they go through. That increases understanding of other people's cultures and leads to more tolerance.

I remember sitting through elementary school learning from other students about how they celebrate religion in their families. It was fun.
 

slurmsmackenzie

Golden Member
Jun 4, 2004
1,413
0
0
Originally posted by: maddogchen
honor their religion by leaving the classroom? eh?

I say tell them to sit there and learn someone else's religion. America is a melting pot of religions so sit your butt down and learn about other people's religions and what they go through. That increases understanding of other people's cultures and leads to more tolerance.

I remember sitting through elementary school learning from other students about how they celebrate religion in their families. It was fun.

here's a better idea... take them on a field trip to a poor american neighborhood (in america??? can't be!) where the kids don't properly celebrate christmas because they're parents have enough trouble feeding and clothing them much less buying video game guitars and punching other shoppers for the last tickle me elmo then maybe they'll learn something.

 

slurmsmackenzie

Golden Member
Jun 4, 2004
1,413
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0
gotta go, everyone, but thanks for letting me argue here..... that way i'll be all grumped out when the ol' lady gets home and instead of griping about who knows what with her, i can put the moves on her and score some sweet tang! BOOYAH
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,423
7,484
136
Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
how come i can't lead a prayer on school grounds (not that i would) because it encroaches upon other people's religious beliefs or lack thereof, but my children if they are jewish or JW or whatever have to get up and leave the classroom making a spectacle of themselves when the teacher has christmas, halloween, easter and other activities permeated with religious holiday themes as "learning material"?

Tip, don't get up and leave.

if the celebratory actions of the "learning material" differ with that of one's religious beliefs then leaving the room is essentially the only option for a child not wanting to associate his/herself with the celebration.

If drawing easter eggs and Christmas trees offends you, then I really don't care if you make a spectacle of yourself. These are American holidays, as an American without an organized religion I take them as such and expect others to do so as well.

You?re free not to participate, but you shouldn?t be exempt from how different that makes you.

*edit

Here?s the basic problem, this topic title is ?Religion in schools?, but I never grew up with religion and I never took those American holidays to be anything associated with it. So your association of religion with them is as foreign to me as your objection to the existence of those holidays.