Reentering the PC building world

[garndawg]

First of all, thanks for taking the time to read all this! Any advice is welcome, along with personal experiences.

After four years of relative inactivity, I'm looking to bite the bullet and rebuild my current PC. I've got time to wait for good deals/DMS as I'm planning to do this over the holidays. Would probably buy available parts off the FS/T section here, except for the SSD.

Purpose: HTPC and primary family entertainment center, w/ some mild gaming (Currently Civ V, COD III and IV, SW BFII ). It'll be Air-cooled. I also use it as a PC for some odd MS Office functions.

Here's what I've got:
MB: GA-EP45-UD3P; CPU: e5200; OS: WinXP Media Center
Disks: Dual Raided (full mirror) Samsung 500GB HD's; Samsung DVD/CD Burner
RAM: 4G x 2 Gskill DDR2 800 (P/N: F2-6400CL5D-4GBPQ)
P/S: Thermaltake Purepower 500W (P/N: W0100RU)
TV Card: Hauppauge HVR-2250
Case: Silverstone LaScala LC17 w/ beaucoup fans for cooling.
GPU: HIS IceQ H657QO1G Radeon HD 6570 1GB 128-bit DDR3
Note: Pulled the original video card (XFX GF 9600GSO 580M 1GB DDR2, Product Code: PV-T96O-ZDFU) and replaced as I needed HDMI to hook up to the TV.
Available: Brand new WD Blue 1TB HDD currently sitting in a USB/eSATA external case

Plans: (Budget ~ $500)
OS: Win7 on a new 830/840 250GB SSD, along w/ latest MS Office, plus games, etc.
Keep raided Samsungs and set up as media folder/documents, upgrade storage in future
Add a BluRay drive of some type, maybe burner capable
Either update CPU to 8xxx or replace MB/CPU/RAM combo
Video Card: Dunno, need HDMI, maybe upgrade if MB/CPU demands (bottleneck?)
Keep TV Tuner/PSU/Case, maybe update front panel ports (3.5" bay), could use eSATA and/or USB3.0

If the MB/CPU/RAM get upgraded, I'd donate them to my mom's PC and update her to Win7 as well. Would probably install in a fresh case, too. Probably use the 9600GSO card I have in that system.

Things that confuse me: CPU/GPS bottlenecks and their relationship to each other; DDR versions in relation to GPUs; whether a AMD CPU pairs better w/ an AMD GPU; better ways to set up a HTPC on MS Media Center for the wife/kids to use (I have an IR remote now); creating backup DVDs to use in the car to prevent kids from ruining originals (I've had some minimal success w/ ripping DVD's to the HDD, haven't burned a playable movie DVD yet)

Background: I'm a mid-40's engineer w/ the usual family demands on my time. I'm perfectly comfortable w/ rebuilding, having built a half-dozen systems in the past 4-6 years, but haven't played much with OC or other tweaking. I'm _willing_ to OC, mind you, but not into the endless hours of getting the last erg out of the system. I've never played with AMD CPUs before, but willing to broach that horizon. I'd like the system to be stable for the next 3-4 years with enough headroom to buy another game sometime, as the mood strikes.

Again, thanks for reading this far. Any thoughts are welcome. I've got a couple months to pull all the parts together for this thing, so I'm not in any particular hurry.

 

[Termie]

Lots of questions are packed into your post, so I'll just try to tackle some of them:

(1) CPU - you mention upgrading to 8xxx, but that won't do much, if anything, for overall performance. You'd still be working with a dual-core, just a faster one. Now, you could upgrade to 9xxx, like the Q9450, but for the long-term, that is not an effective strategy. It's just too slow by today's standards.

(2) CPU and GPU bottlenecks - what you always want when playing a game is a GPU bottleneck - that means the GPU is working to its fullest potential. For the games you listed, your CPU may actually be sufficient, when paired with a reasonable GPU. If, on the other hand, you installed a $1,000 GPU, which would be far too powerful for the games you listed, the CPU would limit it. That would not be optimal, even if it would be faster, as a balance of CPU and GPU power will get you better overall performance.

(3) DDR, sometimes referred to as GDDR for video cards, is important to pay attention to. It has nothing to do with the DDR2 or DDR3 you install as your system RAM. You have a 9600GSO with DDR2. I can promise you it is quite slow, much slower than a 9600 would be with DDR3. Likewise, your HD 6570 is much faster as a DDR3 model than it would be as a DDR2 model. If you see that a certain video card is available with both types of GDDR, or even GDDR5, always get the highest one available, as that is what the card was designed to utilize. The cards equipped with the less expensive (slower) DDR will always run at a far from optimal speed.

(4) You don't need an AMD CPU to run an AMD GPU. It gives you no advantage.

As for your best system at the $500 mark, you're going to be somewhat limited, but can still put together a nice system:

- Samsung 840 Evo 120GB SSD ($110) - paired with existing hard drives
- Blu-Ray burner ($80) - note that you'll need to buy software separately to play Blu-Ray movies, if that's your intention.
- reuse HD 6570 video card ($0)
- reuse case/PSU ($0)
- ASRock B85 motherboard of your choice (~$80)
- Intel Core i5-4430 quad-core CPU ($180)
- 8GB of RAM ($65)

The total comes to just over $500. For the long-term, you really should get a quad-core, although it adds about $60 to the budget, and no, you shouldn't get an AMD processor, not for your purposes. The 4430 is much, much faster, and so a better long-term investment.

I can't tell from your post whether you need to buy Win7, but it sounds like you'll need at least one copy, so add about $100 for that.

 

[DDRGamer]

Speaking of Win7/8, if you have any kids in post-secondary, many institutions offer discounts on things like Office and Windows - a quick google search (while armed with your children's university email addresses) may yield some results.

Seconded on Intel Quad-Core (as much as it pains me to say). If budget restrictions are absolute, then AMD 6-core CPUs can be had as low as $120, but are slower than i5/i7.

GPUs are fairly cheap in this current update cycle - It's worth a look if you're finding your game performance lacking.

 

[mfenn]

Speaking of Win7/8, if you have any kids in post-secondary, many institutions offer discounts on things like Office and Windows - a quick google search (while armed with your children's university email addresses) may yield some results.

The use of such a license by a parent at home for unrelated activities is also very likely against the license agreement. Will you ever get raided by the MS license police? Almost certainly not. However, I think that it's a decision that should be made with the full understanding that it's technically illegal (insofar as breach of contract is illegal).

 

[Torn Mind]

How noisy would you consider your PC right now? It is something to consider with an HTPC.

 

[desura]

An intriguing build that I want to do...

Is to take an AMD A10 processor, put it in an ITX case, and watercool it, plus overclock.

That way you end up with a pretty small box that is fairly power efficient and which can handle Bioshock infinite at medium settings at 720p, and costs under $400.

 

[garndawg]

Thanks for the response, folks! Here's some followups...

(2) CPU and GPU bottlenecks - what you always want when playing a game is a GPU bottleneck - that means the GPU is working to its fullest potential.

So I'll want a CPU that chokes the GPU, which I assume leaves some room for upgrading the GPU in the future. (How much video card, before the i5 Haswell CPU caps out? HD7970?)

(3) DDR, sometimes referred to as GDDR for video cards, is important to pay attention to. It has nothing to do with the DDR2 or DDR3 you install as your system RAM.

This sounds like it's all about the bus speed, then. So 1GB of DDR5 is infinitely superior to 2GB of DDR4, right?

- reuse HD 6570 video card ($0)
- ASRock B85 motherboard of your choice (~$80)
- Intel Core i5-4430 quad-core CPU ($180)

The B85 doesn't support RAID and has 4 SATA ports. I'm already using 3 and adding 2 more (Blu+SDD), so that sounds like a dealbreaker. I think I'm in the H87 range now.

ASRock, huh? Back in the day, the GB UD3 boards were the only contender. Is ASRock the new fav? Are ASUS and GB boards behind now in price/performance?

As for boards, my case supports an ATX, so that's my wheelhouse. Don't need onboard graphics, either.

The i5-4430 is $10 less than the i5-4440 and i5-4570 (both at $199 on newegg). Do the two other CPU's give anything worthy of the extra $10? Where might one find the best comparison among these? What dream CPU might one prowl for on the FS/T board?

Lot's of complaints about cooling on the Haswell, is an aftermarket cooler required?

I can't tell from your post whether you need to buy Win7, but it sounds like you'll need at least one copy, so add about $100 for that.

I'm currently planning Win7 Pro, to get the MS Media Center again. I've struggled with Win8, but am very hesitant to stretch that far. (I suffered through WinME and don't care to repeat that experience.) I'm not figuring in that cost into my budget, tho.

Regarding noise, Torn, it's a HTPC but noise isn't as much of a factor. I have some small level of fan noise now and that doesn't bother me. (Plus, I have four kids under 8yrs, so the ambient noise is already pretty high...) That 9600GSO card, however, sounded like a turbine spinning up and I had to ask XFX for a jumper to tone the fan down prior to pulling it altogether.

 

[DDRGamer]

The use of such a license by a parent at home for unrelated activities is also very likely against the license agreement. Will you ever get raided by the MS license police? Almost certainly not. However, I think that it's a decision that should be made with the full understanding that it's technically illegal (insofar as breach of contract is illegal).

I was under the impression that such discounts were offered merely as an incentive for students to purchase Office/Windows for any reason, as opposed to specifically for university use.

That said, I'll reexamine the Terms of Use.

 

[Termie]

Thanks for the response, folks! Here's some followups...



So I'll want a CPU that chokes the GPU, which I assume leaves some room for upgrading the GPU in the future. (How much video card, before the i5 Haswell CPU caps out? HD7970?)

The 7970 would be bottlenecked by an i5-4430, most likely, but anything higher than that would let it run full strength.

This sounds like it's all about the bus speed, then. So 1GB of DDR5 is infinitely superior to 2GB of DDR4, right?

It's not bus speed alone, it's also the speed of the RAM. DDR5 can run much faster than DDR1-DDR4.

The B85 doesn't support RAID and has 4 SATA ports. I'm already using 3 and adding 2 more (Blu+SDD), so that sounds like a dealbreaker. I think I'm in the H87 range now.

Ah, yes, you need RAID (although I'd question if you actually NEED it, you just run it right now). H87 is not much more expensive, so sure, go for that.

ASRock, huh? Back in the day, the GB UD3 boards were the only contender. Is ASRock the new fav? Are ASUS and GB boards behind now in price/performance?

Asus is most expensive, then Gigabyte, and then ASRock. Quality wise, I'd rank it Asus, ASRock, then Gigabyte.

As for boards, my case supports an ATX, so that's my wheelhouse. Don't need onboard graphics, either.

Oh, but you'll get onboard graphics. Every Intel chip worth buying has it, unless you went with a server chip, but that's not in the cards here.

The i5-4430 is $10 less than the i5-4440 and i5-4570 (both at $199 on newegg). Do the two other CPU's give anything worthy of the extra $10? Where might one find the best comparison among these? What dream CPU might one prowl for on the FS/T board?

Based on prices today, I'd probably get the 4570.

Lot's of complaints about cooling on the Haswell, is an aftermarket cooler required?

Irrelevant for a locked processor like the 4430 or 4570. They'll run hot, but in no way will they overheat. There's a distinction. One of my systems is a 4670K running on the stock heatsink with an overclock to 3.8GHz, in a tiny case. Runs fine, gets up to 72C in games, no problem other than the noise, which is less than the video card anyway.

I'm currently planning Win7 Pro, to get the MS Media Center again. I've struggled with Win8, but am very hesitant to stretch that far. (I suffered through WinME and don't care to repeat that experience.) I'm not figuring in that cost into my budget, tho.

Win8 doesn't have media center or DVD playback. Need to get Pro for that as well. I'd consider Win8 Pro anyway, though, to get the newer OS.

....

Responses above.

 

[lehtv]

i5-4430 would not really bottleneck a 7970 in the vast majority of titles, but in CPU heavy titles it would, some of the time. It's still around 50% faster than an FX-6300, for example.

I would also go with 4570 though if building a non OC gaming PC.

 

[Termie]

i5-4430 would not really bottleneck a 7970 in the vast majority of titles, but in CPU heavy titles it would, some of the time. It's still around 50% faster than an FX-6300, for example.

I would also go with 4570 though if building a non OC gaming PC.

On that subject, some interesting results here using an HD 7970 in Crysis3: http://us.hardware.info/reviews/476...-benchmarks-hd-7970-crysis-3-1920x1080-medium

Unfortunately, some of their results are suspect, specifically the 3770K and 3570K results, which clearly were subject to either a hardware or software problem.

That being said, you can see how the 4430 sits in the hierarchy.

 

[mfenn]

I was under the impression that such discounts were offered merely as an incentive for students to purchase Office/Windows for any reason, as opposed to specifically for university use.

That said, I'll reexamine the Terms of Use.

When I worked at a university, they were extremely picky about what software was used where. We could use the academic license for anything that was directly in use by students or in a class, but we had to use normal enterprise licenses (read: expensive) for back office stuff.

 

[garndawg]

A little reordering of comments for clarity below...

It's not bus speed alone, it's also the speed of the RAM. DDR5 can run much faster than DDR1-DDR4.

Ah, this sent me off for research. I now see the DDR5 was more of a quantum leap than previous versions. All is clear, now.

Ah, yes, you need RAID (although I'd question if you actually NEED it, you just run it right now). H87 is not much more expensive, so sure, go for that.

OK, I'll bite. We've got loads of pics/video/family stuff on the drive. I use in RAID1, so a HD failure is just a h/w swap. Something in the tone makes me think you're in favor of full backups instead. I'd love to know your thoughts on this. Maybe I should start a new thread on "Storage"?

The 7970 would be bottlenecked by an i5-4430, most likely, but anything higher than that would let it run full strength. Based on prices today, I'd probably get the 4570. Asus is most expensive, then Gigabyte, and then ASRock. Quality wise, I'd rank it Asus, ASRock, then Gigabyte.

So, prowling over the next quarter for a Tigerdirect or FT/T deal, I'm looking for a i5-4570 w/ a H87 mb made by Asus, ASRock or GB (in order of preference) w/ compatible 4x4GB RAM chips. Hold what I've got in video card, but plan for a 7970 on clearance or FS/T in the next six months. Any extras to watch for?

I'm currently planning Win7 Pro, to get the MS Media Center again. I've struggled with Win8, but am very hesitant to stretch that far. (I suffered through WinME and don't care to repeat that experience.) I'm not figuring in that cost into my budget, tho.

Win8 doesn't have media center or DVD playback. Need to get Pro for that as well. I'd consider Win8 Pro anyway, though, to get the newer OS.

So, two weeks ago, I was a solid lock for Win7 Pro. After reading a bunch, I'm now decidedly on the fence (still leaning in favor of Win7 Pro). I'll be watching all the reviews for Win8 Pro over the next couple of months.

As always, thank you for all the help/thoughts.

 

[mfenn]

OK, I'll bite. We've got loads of pics/video/family stuff on the drive. I use in RAID1, so a HD failure is just a h/w swap. Something in the tone makes me think you're in favor of full backups instead. I'd love to know your thoughts on this. Maybe I should start a new thread on "Storage"?

RAID is not a backup because it only protects you from one class of faults: full drive failure. It does not protect you from silent hardware-induced data corruption (bit errors on read), software-induced data corruption (malicious or otherwise), or just plain old accidental deletion. A good incremental backup scheme will cover you in the case of all of these.

The purpose of RAID is so that data will stay online in the case of a drive failure. It's generally a secondary concern after proper backups have been made.

So, prowling over the next quarter for a Tigerdirect or FT/T deal, I'm looking for a i5-4570 w/ a H87 mb made by Asus, ASRock or GB (in order of preference) w/ compatible 4x4GB RAM chips. Hold what I've got in video card, but plan for a 7970 on clearance or FS/T in the next six months. Any extras to watch for?

Also consider Newegg and Amazon. PCPartpicker is a good resource for finding deals (though it doesn't get them all).

So, two weeks ago, I was a solid lock for Win7 Pro. After reading a bunch, I'm now decidedly on the fence (still leaning in favor of Win7 Pro). I'll be watching all the reviews for Win8 Pro over the next couple of months.

What particular features of Windows 7 Pro over Windows 7 Home Premium do you need? Same for Windows 8 Pro over Windows 8.

 

[garndawg]

RAID is not a backup because it only protects you from one class of faults: full drive failure. It does not protect you from silent hardware-induced data corruption (bit errors on read), software-induced data corruption (malicious or otherwise), or just plain old accidental deletion. A good incremental backup scheme will cover you in the case of all of these.

The purpose of RAID is so that data will stay online in the case of a drive failure. It's generally a secondary concern after proper backups have been made.

I started a thread in Memory and got educated pretty quickly. Basically, I've been living in false security land...

What particular features of Windows 7 Pro over Windows 7 Home Premium do you need? Same for Windows 8 Pro over Windows 8.

This might be a seperate thread in OS, but basically looking for Media Center, plus I might use the Remote Desktop to fix my mom's PC in another state. I understand the Pro backup s/w can backup to the network I have, too.

 

[mfenn]

This might be a seperate thread in OS, but basically looking for Media Center, plus I might use the Remote Desktop to fix my mom's PC in another state. I understand the Pro backup s/w can backup to the network I have, too.

Windows 7 HP has Media Center included. Remote Desktop Client is included with all versions of Windows, you only need Pro Remote Desktop Server (and there are tons of free alternatives). I also wouldn't trust the Windows built-in backup software, I did and lost data because it has bugs where it will refused to restore to dissimilar hardware.