Recording Industry Eyes 'Smart' CDs - How long before we outsmart them again? **Update-Outsmarted by the Shift Key

Led Zeppelin

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 2002
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When will they learn they won't win?


LOS ANGELES (AP) - Recording companies are cautiously eyeing a new generation of smart CDs that promise to stifle music fans' ability to use file-swapping networks while still allowing them some freedom to make copies and share music.

Recent advancements in copy-protection technology have made such a strategy more palatable to music companies reluctant to make any drastic changes to the 20-year-old CD format, particularly in the United States.

Next week, BMG Entertainment's new album by hip-hop singer Anthony Hamilton will be the first commercial release to use a technology that restricts copying yet lets buyers play protected CDs on computers and burn copies onto blank CDs. Fans can even send copies to friends over the Internet.

The music industry blames a three-year decline in CD sales on burners and peer-to-peer, file-swapping networks like Kazaa. The new technology could complement the recording companies' legal efforts against operators of file-swapping networks and their users.


So far, the top five recording companies, concerned about the technology's effectiveness and a backlash from fans, have largely released copy-protected CDs commercially only outside the United States.

Early copy-proofing efforts prompted complaints that in some cases users could no longer play legally bought CDs on computers, a way of listening the companies now recognize many fans have come to prefer.

BMG is seizing on the new copy-protection advancements by embedding "Comin' From Where I'm From" with MediaMax CD-3 technology from Phoenix-based SunnComm Technologies Inc.

With MediaMax CD-3, each song is written onto the CD twice - once in a format readable by standard CD players and the other as a Windows media file playable on a computer.

BMG has set up the CD so fans can burn each track three times per computer. Songs can also be e-mailed to a limited number of people, who can then listen to the song up to 10 times apiece.

SunnComm says that most people, unless they are hackers or truly determined, won't be able to circumvent the limits, including one that keeps songs locked so they can't be played even if they circulate over file-sharing networks.

Peter Jacobs, SunnComm's chief executive, considered his technology a moderate alternative to suing fans, as the industry did this month with nearly 300 federal lawsuits against users of file-sharing networks.

BMG, which signed a one-year deal with SunnComm in June, was still evaluating future releases with copy protection.

"We are quite hopeful that the technology that they've developed is a step in the right direction and is a step which we will hopefully start using more extensively commercially," said Thomas Heffe, chief strategy officer for BMG in New York.

Meanwhile, SunnComm rival Macrovision Inc., based in Santa Clara, has developed technology that also allows CD burning and listening on computers. The CDS-300, however, blocks other attempts to make copies or share music online.

Several labels have collectively shipped in overseas markets more than 150 million CDs with an earlier version of Macrovision's copy protection system, said Adam Sexton, a Macrovision spokesman.

Macrovision is talking with several major labels about using the new technology in the United States.

"We want to be comfortable with a technology that does allow for some personal use and does respect the work and the copyright," EMI spokeswoman Jeanne Meyer said.

Privately, some recording industry executives say they don't believe the latest copy-protection technology is good enough yet and could be easily thwarted. One past effort faltered when someone defeated it simply by blotting out part of the CD with a marker.

Technology that respects fans' desire to copy, share and hear songs in different ways is good in principle, but consumers' legal rights could still be curbed by limits on copies permitted, said Cindy Cohn, legal director of the Electronic Frontier Foundation.

"There is a conceptual problem with that approach," Cohn said. "It is inconsistent with how fair use has always been applied."

For now, recording labels will watch for fans' reaction.

"What if they put copy protection in the disc and it doesn't ... reverse the decline of CD sales?" asked Phil Leigh, an analyst at Inside Digital Media. "If it doesn't help it's likely to hurt by just annoying people."



10/9/03 Update - Outsmarted by the Shift Key - That didn't take long, lol.
 

TheBoyBlunder

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2003
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Yes, because it's all p2p and cd burning that have caused:
a) the economic downturn
b) more crappy music than ever (except maybe in the 50s between Elvis getting drafted and the Beatles arriving in the US)
c) the record companies being found guilty of price fixing (and getting a lousy slap on the wrist for it)
d) the record suing their customer base
AND
e) people buying less music because of all those things.

All this will do is piss people off and possibly deter the casual pirate. If you still want to pirate music, you'll stil, quite easily, be able to.
 

flxnimprtmscl

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2003
7,962
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Hmm, not quite sure I get all of what they're talking about here. It says they're able to be burned up to three times per computer (what's the point of that?) but doesn't say anything about those rips self-destructing in a certain time period as they supposedly do when e-mailed. If that's the case what keeps them locked when being distributed accross p2p networks?

Really though I don't see how the record companies can win this one. As far as I'm concerned the cd format is deader than dead. At least as the only option of listening to music. Personally, I mainly listed to my music as mp3's on my computer or on my iPod. I almost never listen from the cd. I don't see how they can get around p2p while still allowing people the right to listen to their music how they choose.

Btw, I loved this part:


SunnComm says that most people, unless they are hackers or truly determined, won't be able to circumvent the limits

Yah, and how long would it take one of these "hackers" to write a simple progam that everyone could easily download to unlock their cd's
rolleye.gif
That would neeever happen...
 

bananaFish

Member
Jul 8, 2003
140
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Originally posted by: NuclearFusi0n
It'll be cracked. If the data can be read, it can be copied. period.

ding ding ding! You hit the nail on the head.

Ummm...How does one email an MP3 or WMA? Last I checked the files were too big for most email accounts.

Listened to 10 times? HA. Sounds like a 30 day trial on some of the most popular software titles out there. That Idea works well.

Is the music industry really run by a bunch of chimps?

Cheers

:beer:
 

TechnoKid

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2001
5,575
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Hrmmm there are some serious design flaws that i see. For one, if the computer audio files are the same quailty bit for bit as the CD-player version, then a simple conversion to WAV would totally circumvent any protection....
 

h8red

Senior member
Jul 24, 2001
967
1
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Originally posted by: TechnoKid
Hrmmm there are some serious design flaws that i see. For one, if the computer audio files are the same quailty bit for bit as the CD-player version, then a simple conversion to WAV would totally circumvent any protection....

That's exactly why they will never come up with something that will be circumventable
 

Eli

Super Moderator | Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
50,419
8
81
Originally posted by: BillGates
The technology will be cracked before the discs make it to retail stores. :)

Most likely.
 

Mark R

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
8,513
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81
I reckon that the old magic-marker trick should convincingly defeat this. Black out the 'PC' readable part, and the PC will read the 'Audio' part instead.
 

Pepsi90919

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,162
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that CDS-300 or whatever is the same technology that EMI is using on 'copy controlled' discs. basically what happens is the TOC is written all out of whack and such to try and confuse programs like EAC (it always crashes on me on CC discs)... further, the usual error correction bits have been exploited in that white noise is inserted in them... so what happens is when the CD-ROM reads the disc with error correction turned on, it picks up all the white noise in the tracks and it sounds like crap. If you use a program like Feurio! then it seems to know enough to ignore the screwed up error correction. Of course this also means that the disc will have a much shorter life if you scratch it.

It says you can play it on your computer, share it, whatever. What it means is that it comes with a POS windows program that has MP3's of the discs in like 64 kbps format that sound like complete ass. I assume they've made it now so you can share those files or whatever. As far as a limit on playability goes, it's probably in software.

Again, if you use the right program to rip the discs you won't have a problem getting around CC. These discs are NOT CD'S -- Sony/Philips specifically said they could not put 'compact disc digital audio' anywhere on the packaging since it rapes the standard too much.
 

Arkitech

Diamond Member
Apr 13, 2000
8,356
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Why don't these dumb f*cks realize that one of the major reasons sales are declining is because of the skyrocketing prices of albums. As a guy who *used to* buy 3-6 albums per month my main reason for not buying albums recently is because of pricing. I simply can't afford and refuse to pay 15-20 bucks for a CD, at one point it was possible to find quite a bit of music (including new releases) between 8-12 bucks. During that time I purchased albums like crazy but now I would rather listen to what I already have than to line the pockets of these greedy bastards while they continue to increase the price of albums.
 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
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Originally posted by: Mark R
I reckon that the old magic-marker trick should convincingly defeat this. Black out the 'PC' readable part, and the PC will read the 'Audio' part instead.

Now that would be funny :p

Even if they RIAA lowered prices do you actually think people would start buying them? Would like it free or for $12?
 

Dedpuhl

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
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Originally posted by: Tabb
Originally posted by: Mark R
I reckon that the old magic-marker trick should convincingly defeat this. Black out the 'PC' readable part, and the PC will read the 'Audio' part instead.

Now that would be funny :p

Even if they RIAA lowered prices do you actually think people would start buying them? Would like it free or for $12?

Older albums shouldn't sell for more than $7. New albums shouldn't sell for more than $10. If this kind of pricing was implemented, then i'd start buying again.

Right now, I only use the BMG music club to buy my albums. I've gotten so many people to join that my average CD price has been $3. :)
 

DurocShark

Lifer
Apr 18, 2001
15,708
5
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BMG has set up the CD so fans can burn each track three times per computer. Songs can also be e-mailed to a limited number of people, who can then listen to the song up to 10 times apiece.

I have no doubt this will be hacked right about when the first CD using this hits the shelves. :)

However, even if there is absolutely no way to hack it (no, stop laughing, I'm not finished), this would still be a reasonable restriction IF the audio quality matches the original CD, and not some smelly 16 bit rendering...
 

TheCorm

Diamond Member
Nov 5, 2000
4,326
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One country develops new stealth technology, another country develops the way to detect it.....it will be the same with these....another example is viruses and virus scanners.
 

MegaloManiaK

Golden Member
May 27, 2003
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Man i really just wish they would come out with copy protection that makes it impossible to play the CD on the computer, walkman, car CDplay, stereo, and every other device.

That would rock the house so much if they screwed it up and shipped 100000 unusable CD's. Maby then consumers would see how bad the music machine has gotten and drop them altogether.

I mean come on, 50 years ago if it werent for a big record sponsor nobody would hear your music. Today they are just middlemen overcharging people and underpaying thier artists.

Viva la Revolutione'

Edit: "For now, recording labels will watch for fans' reaction."

Right, im sure they are watching them like a hawk, i mean they have been real responsive in the past right?
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Based on what I"ve just read it seems quite impossible for this to be a long-term effective solution against copying. As mentioned somebody with the time could make a program to bypass this sillyness - especially the simplicity of the limited number of plays per CD. The problem of course is that hardware has not changed and the record industry can't change it. And so they use software to try and secure it, but other software can always be written and over power it.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
/connects home stereo CD player to line-in jack on PC's sound card

/laughs and flips the RIAA the bird


fools
rolleye.gif
:disgust:
 

Viper GTS

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
38,107
433
136
Originally posted by: Vic
/connects home stereo CD player to line-in jack on PC's sound card

/laughs and flips the RIAA the bird


fools
rolleye.gif
:disgust:

I would take that one step further & buy a sound card with S/PDIF inputs.

Connect one of my extra DVD players to my PC with a $5 toslink cable & I'd have perfect digital copies.

Viper GTS
 

Kenazo

Lifer
Sep 15, 2000
10,429
1
81
connects home stereo CD player to line-in jack on PC's sound card

/laughs and flips the RIAA the bird


fools

We do this at the radio station all the time. :) Here we even have sweet setup for doing it. Then again, we can copy pretty much whatever want.
 

Led Zeppelin

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 2002
3,555
0
71
Originally posted by: Mark R
I reckon that the old magic-marker trick should convincingly defeat this. Black out the 'PC' readable part, and the PC will read the 'Audio' part instead.

ROFL, how funny would THAT be. No coding or programs needs, just my trusty ol' Sharpie. :p

 

AlienCraft

Lifer
Nov 23, 2002
10,539
0
0
Originally posted by: NuclearFusi0n
It'll be cracked. If the data can be read, it can be copied. period.
Idiots, One analog conversion out to another copying device and you're back in Digital World.
I'll take one decent A-D conversion. That would still sound better than most mp3 rips I've heard so far.