• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

Record Consumer Credit Card Debt Approaches $1 Trillion

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Yup and it's going to be interesting when Americans all of a sudden say, "We've been fucked by the rich and we aren't going to pay."
Tell that to older people on a fixed income which has been smacked down by the inflation tax.
you mean the ones who were too selfish and lazy to save?
No, the ones who saved, but their savings have been hit by the hidden inflation tax.
Saved where?
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
141
116
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
I don't feel sorry for ANYONE who lives beyond their means and now has to pay the piper.
True, but if a company takes a hit, it will reflect on all their clients...not just the bad apples.
 

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,773
11
81
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Yup and it's going to be interesting when Americans all of a sudden say, "We've been fucked by the rich and we aren't going to pay."
Tell that to older people on a fixed income which has been smacked down by the inflation tax.
you mean the ones who were too selfish and lazy to save?
No, the ones who saved, but their savings have been hit by the hidden inflation tax.
And even if you do manage to save $2 million, it could only be worth 500.000 EUR if the value of the dollar keeps declining.
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
0
76
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: GrGr
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
It's been awhile since I looked it up, blackangst1- thanks for the update.

The rest of the article you link is illustrative, as well, showing the one step forward and two steps back situation faced by many elderly people.

Which bolsters what I said, rather than countering it- both of us would probably starve to death on $1053/mo, and for about 1/3 of America's elderly, SS is their total income...

Meaning that many do, in truth, live in extended family situations, contrary to LK's assertion, even those who have other income sources. And the current situation of rising debt and increased expense for families in general tells us more about reality than any well massaged govt inflation figures...

Nor is it merely about debt per se, but about assets, which fewer and fewer actually have, and about the overhead of daily life, which isn't getting any smaller, even for the frugal...

And about unrealistic expectations, unrealistic faith in the system, and often unwarranted faith in the future... People wouldn't go into debt otherwise...
I agree. I suspect more than 30%, but Im too lazy to look it up.

The main problem is that our government's solution is to find ways to fund the current system for future retirees, and the people's solution is to hire (read: elect) politicians that will do this. The real solution is to reverse the trend of reliance on the government for retirement, and teach people how to save themselves. There's two ways to make alot of money. 1. a little bit of money and alot of time, or 2. alot of money and a little bit of time. Most people have the former. It doesnt take alot to accumulate $1 million + if you start early. Unfortunantly most people dont underastand finances, think it costs too much to invest, and are too selfish and want to spend money on other things.

If people retire poor, it's no one's fault but their own. And before you flame me, this is a generalization. Generalizations are genrally true.
If everybody retired "rich" nobody would be "rich" since the definition of "rich" would change. Since it is impossible for everybody to retire "rich" SS and the like were invented to help support those who cannot retire "rich" but need help to survive in their dotage.
You're not getting it. Im not talking about "rich" here. Im talking about middle class. Let me give you an example. Im 42. If I plan on retiring at 65, and living 20 years afterwards, and to get $45,000/yr in today's dollar, and based on an average inflation rate of 4%, I will need $1,750,000 to do that.

You think almost $2 mill is rich? Youre out of your mind.
So a millionaire isn't rich any longer?

I guess soon (in another 100 years if not before) you need to be a billionaire to retire, heh.

 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
1
61
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Yup and it's going to be interesting when Americans all of a sudden say, "We've been fucked by the rich and we aren't going to pay."
Tell that to older people on a fixed income which has been smacked down by the inflation tax.
you mean the ones who were too selfish and lazy to save?
No, the ones who saved, but their savings have been hit by the hidden inflation tax.
Saved where?
I said earlier...

Tell that to older people on a fixed income which has been smacked down by the inflation tax.
Most of them are not capable of investing their money to offset inflation.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Yup and it's going to be interesting when Americans all of a sudden say, "We've been fucked by the rich and we aren't going to pay."
Tell that to older people on a fixed income which has been smacked down by the inflation tax.
you mean the ones who were too selfish and lazy to save?
No, the ones who saved, but their savings have been hit by the hidden inflation tax.
Saved where?
I said earlier...

Tell that to older people on a fixed income which has been smacked down by the inflation tax.
Most of them are not capable of investing their money to offset inflation.
SS is tied to inflation, where else is there money?
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: bamacre
In cash?
Not my fault they were not smart enough to put it into at least bonds.

You're looking for an excuse for stupidity, sorry, but there's no cure and the government shouldn't be responsible for one.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,967
843
126
Originally posted by: GrGr
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: GrGr
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
It's been awhile since I looked it up, blackangst1- thanks for the update.

The rest of the article you link is illustrative, as well, showing the one step forward and two steps back situation faced by many elderly people.

Which bolsters what I said, rather than countering it- both of us would probably starve to death on $1053/mo, and for about 1/3 of America's elderly, SS is their total income...

Meaning that many do, in truth, live in extended family situations, contrary to LK's assertion, even those who have other income sources. And the current situation of rising debt and increased expense for families in general tells us more about reality than any well massaged govt inflation figures...

Nor is it merely about debt per se, but about assets, which fewer and fewer actually have, and about the overhead of daily life, which isn't getting any smaller, even for the frugal...

And about unrealistic expectations, unrealistic faith in the system, and often unwarranted faith in the future... People wouldn't go into debt otherwise...
I agree. I suspect more than 30%, but Im too lazy to look it up.

The main problem is that our government's solution is to find ways to fund the current system for future retirees, and the people's solution is to hire (read: elect) politicians that will do this. The real solution is to reverse the trend of reliance on the government for retirement, and teach people how to save themselves. There's two ways to make alot of money. 1. a little bit of money and alot of time, or 2. alot of money and a little bit of time. Most people have the former. It doesnt take alot to accumulate $1 million + if you start early. Unfortunantly most people dont underastand finances, think it costs too much to invest, and are too selfish and want to spend money on other things.

If people retire poor, it's no one's fault but their own. And before you flame me, this is a generalization. Generalizations are genrally true.
If everybody retired "rich" nobody would be "rich" since the definition of "rich" would change. Since it is impossible for everybody to retire "rich" SS and the like were invented to help support those who cannot retire "rich" but need help to survive in their dotage.
You're not getting it. Im not talking about "rich" here. Im talking about middle class. Let me give you an example. Im 42. If I plan on retiring at 65, and living 20 years afterwards, and to get $45,000/yr in today's dollar, and based on an average inflation rate of 4%, I will need $1,750,000 to do that.

You think almost $2 mill is rich? Youre out of your mind.
So a millionaire isn't rich any longer?

I guess soon (in another 100 years if not before) you need to be a billionaire to retire, heh.
No, not for retirees. Again. 2mill when we retire will pay you 45-50k/yr for about 20 years. That is NOT rich.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,967
843
126
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Yup and it's going to be interesting when Americans all of a sudden say, "We've been fucked by the rich and we aren't going to pay."
Tell that to older people on a fixed income which has been smacked down by the inflation tax.
you mean the ones who were too selfish and lazy to save?
No, the ones who saved, but their savings have been hit by the hidden inflation tax.
Who the hell saves for retirement in cash assets? No one smart thats for sure.

As Warren Buffett says, you cant save your way to prosperity. You have to invest.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
62,279
14,483
136
For what it is, SS isn't a bad deal. It's more than a retirement income, it's long term disability insurance and long term annuity income to survivors... Administration costs are so low that fund managers and investment bankers would starve on it... the real threat to SS and its major problem is all the other higher priority govt debt run up by so-called conservatives... If SS were the only federal debt, we'd be in great shape...

I'll agree that it shouldn't be the only source of income for retirees, but contend that's easier said than done. If it weren't, SS wouldn't exist. And, quite frankly, all of this stimulus to the economy created by consumer spending and debt wouldn't be nearly as large as it has been, either... because people would have been doing more saving and investing rather than spending and borrowing. I think we'd all be in a healthier situation for it, but the rich wouldn't be a helluva lot richer, either... not as much as they are under the prevalent scenario.

Not to mention the demise of traditional pension plans and the outright looting of many, or the phenomenon of putting control of retirement accounts in the hands of their individual owners, whose financial acumen isn't nearly that of those making money off them with the advancement of that divide and conquer methodology...

It's also easy to take an elitist attitude, say that people should have been smart enough to do this, that, or the other, which fails to take into account the simple fact that half the population has below average intelligence, and have attempted to compensate with faith, honesty, and a solid work ethic their whole lives... Sometimes, I suspect that the promotion of those particular values is just another way to take advantage of others. If they're honest and hardworking while you're not, it just makes it easier to take advantage of 'em...

 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
1
61
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: bamacre
In cash?
Not my fault they were not smart enough to put it into at least bonds.

You're looking for an excuse for stupidity, sorry, but there's no cure and the government shouldn't be responsible for one.
So, you're telling me that people in their mid to late 60's and 70's should have their money in bonds? And will those bonds yield an interest income greater than the rate of inflation?
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: bamacre
In cash?
Not my fault they were not smart enough to put it into at least bonds.

You're looking for an excuse for stupidity, sorry, but there's no cure and the government shouldn't be responsible for one.
So, you're telling me that people in their mid to late 60's and 70's should have their money in bonds? And will those bonds yield an interest income greater than the rate of inflation?
In most cases yes, only short-run inflation won't be included. Long-run it will.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,967
843
126
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: bamacre
In cash?
Not my fault they were not smart enough to put it into at least bonds.

You're looking for an excuse for stupidity, sorry, but there's no cure and the government shouldn't be responsible for one.
So, you're telling me that people in their mid to late 60's and 70's should have their money in bonds? And will those bonds yield an interest income greater than the rate of inflation?
Yes. Muni's of possible.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
1
61
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: bamacre
In cash?
Not my fault they were not smart enough to put it into at least bonds.

You're looking for an excuse for stupidity, sorry, but there's no cure and the government shouldn't be responsible for one.
So, you're telling me that people in their mid to late 60's and 70's should have their money in bonds? And will those bonds yield an interest income greater than the rate of inflation?
In most cases yes, only short-run inflation won't be included. Long-run it will.
Ok, interesting. So they can buy/sell to get needed cash?
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,967
843
126
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
For what it is, SS isn't a bad deal. It's more than a retirement income, it's long term disability insurance and long term annuity income to survivors... Administration costs are so low that fund managers and investment bankers would starve on it... the real threat to SS and its major problem is all the other higher priority govt debt run up by so-called conservatives... If SS were the only federal debt, we'd be in great shape...

I'll agree that it shouldn't be the only source of income for retirees, but contend that's easier said than done. If it weren't, SS wouldn't exist. And, quite frankly, all of this stimulus to the economy created by consumer spending and debt wouldn't be nearly as large as it has been, either... because people would have been doing more saving and investing rather than spending and borrowing. I think we'd all be in a healthier situation for it, but the rich wouldn't be a helluva lot richer, either... not as much as they are under the prevalent scenario.

Not to mention the demise of traditional pension plans and the outright looting of many, or the phenomenon of putting control of retirement accounts in the hands of their individual owners, whose financial acumen isn't nearly that of those making money off them with the advancement of that divide and conquer methodology...

It's also easy to take an elitist attitude, say that people should have been smart enough to do this, that, or the other, which fails to take into account the simple fact that half the population has below average intelligence, and have attempted to compensate with faith, honesty, and a solid work ethic their whole lives... Sometimes, I suspect that the promotion of those particular values is just another way to take advantage of others. If they're honest and hardworking while you're not, it just makes it easier to take advantage of 'em...
I agree 100%. Social security was NEVER intended to be a retirement income, but rather a supplement. Unfortunately, retirement accounts, if they exist, are the supplements.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
141
116
While it is nice to hear that some AT members have their finances in perfect order, remember that it takes one leak to sink a ship.

Just because you and I are ideal citizens does not mean we shouldn't take notice when our financial institutions stand to lose countless billions in an interconnected economic upheaval that hits a broad section of our country.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: bamacre
In cash?
Not my fault they were not smart enough to put it into at least bonds.

You're looking for an excuse for stupidity, sorry, but there's no cure and the government shouldn't be responsible for one.
So, you're telling me that people in their mid to late 60's and 70's should have their money in bonds? And will those bonds yield an interest income greater than the rate of inflation?
In most cases yes, only short-run inflation won't be included. Long-run it will.
Ok, interesting. So they can buy/sell to get needed cash?
You don't know this?
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,967
843
126
Originally posted by: jpeyton
While it is nice to hear that some AT members have their finances in perfect order, remember that it takes one leak to sink a ship.

Just because you and I are ideal citizens does not mean we shouldn't take notice when our financial institutions stand to lose countless billions in an interconnected economic upheaval that hits a broad section of our country.
At last count, I indirectly own shares of over 300 companies (Im a mutual fund guy). I would need 300 leaks for my ship to sink. Am I being arrogant? Not really. More like realistic. The DOW and NASDAQ could take a 30% dump tomorrow and I would still be ahead from 5 years ago. Im not really worried about it.

Take a look at the Fortune 500 sometime and let us know how probable it is for ANY of them to delist and go belly up. Possible? Sure. Probable? Nope. And throw in, whats the possibility of the majority of them collapsing? Near zero.

Even if it DID happen, it doesnt matter where your money is. We'll be back to bartering.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
1
61
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: bamacre
In cash?
Not my fault they were not smart enough to put it into at least bonds.

You're looking for an excuse for stupidity, sorry, but there's no cure and the government shouldn't be responsible for one.
So, you're telling me that people in their mid to late 60's and 70's should have their money in bonds? And will those bonds yield an interest income greater than the rate of inflation?
In most cases yes, only short-run inflation won't be included. Long-run it will.
Ok, interesting. So they can buy/sell to get needed cash?
You don't know this?
:laugh:

Hey, I told ya the other day. I am NOT a finance guy. :D

But I will assume so.
 

colonel

Golden Member
Apr 22, 2001
1,776
18
81
Guys I m proud to be debt free, and I tell you Debtors make out like bandits. Who gets to hurt? The people hardest hit in the inflationary phase are those living on Fixed incomes.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: colonel
Guys I m proud to be debt free, and I tell you Debtors make out like bandits. Who gets to hurt? The people hardest hit in the inflationary phase are those living on Fixed incomes.
It depends on the debtor I know credit card companies have made a ton of money in the last 5 years, especially in the last 2. They have been able to run roughshod over consumers with new legislation, high balances, high interest rates charge, and low interest rates funding.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: bamacre
In cash?
Not my fault they were not smart enough to put it into at least bonds.

You're looking for an excuse for stupidity, sorry, but there's no cure and the government shouldn't be responsible for one.
So, you're telling me that people in their mid to late 60's and 70's should have their money in bonds? And will those bonds yield an interest income greater than the rate of inflation?
In most cases yes, only short-run inflation won't be included. Long-run it will.
Ok, interesting. So they can buy/sell to get needed cash?
You don't know this?
:laugh:

Hey, I told ya the other day. I am NOT a finance guy. :D

But I will assume so.
I just find it funny that you run around here claiming that people are being robbed by the "inflation tax", yet really have no idea what it really means to people in a practical manner. Truth be told, it doesn't really affect people as much as some would like to have you think.

It's telling that their propaganda has really put blinders on you. It appears to have been very effective in making you not think.

You don't have to be a finance guy to know all of this, you just have to know about what you need to do in the future to support yourself, or what others are currently doing. That type of education is what others fear you having, since their propaganda and bullshit won't be as nearly effective.

Welcome to the real world.
 

child of wonder

Diamond Member
Aug 31, 2006
8,307
175
106
Where are all these people that have tens of thousands of dollars in credit card debt, home equity loans, and ARM/interest only mortgages that are destroying our economy and causing those of us with any fiscal responsibility to bear the brunt of their idiocy via plummeting home prices, rampant inflation, and an impending recession?

I'd really like to kick every single one of them in the nuts.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY

TRENDING THREADS