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Record Consumer Credit Card Debt Approaches $1 Trillion

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
141
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The effects of this economic recession are wide reaching, and interconnected. While high credit card debt might sound good for banks, loan defaults are at record highs as well. As the housing market continues with its predicted fall of 20-30% over the next 3 years (and gas/food/commodities rise faster than wages/inflation), more people will find themselves using their credit cards as a crutch as their mortgage spirals out of control.

This also makes me question the necessity of the tax rebate handouts from the federal government. A recent survey found that less than 20% of people plan on spending their rebate money; most plan on using it to pay off existing debt. The government passed the stimulus package on the assumption that 40% of people would spend that money on new purchases, invigorating the economy...a foolish assumption considering the current conditions.

Text

By Kathy Chu, USA TODAY
Seven years in the credit-counseling business didn't prepare Ann Estes for the alarming trend she began noticing last fall: As her clients' mortgage bills became unaffordable, a growing number of them began paying their credit card bills before ? and sometimes instead of ? their mortgages.

"We've never seen anything like this," says Estes, who counsels clients by phone from her office in Richmond, Va. "Their homes are at risk, and they know it. But people say, 'I don't want to let my credit cards go because that's my cash flow.' "

Across the nation, credit counselors are reporting the same trend. Credit bureau analyses of consumer payment data show that financially squeezed borrowers have begun paying their credit card and car bills before their mortgages. That's a striking reversal from the norm, one that reflects rising desperation. It suggests that some people essentially have given up trying to stay current with their mortgages and instead are focused on using credit cards to squeak by.

If the trend persists, many economists say, it could accelerate mortgage losses and further drag down the economy.

Rising living costs, along with cheap and plentiful credit, have led consumers to rely more on plastic to pay for necessities they can't live without ? and luxuries they don't want to do without. But as the economy weakens, consumers are starting to spend less on discretionary items, such as furniture and electronics, and more on such necessities as groceries and gas, according to government data. Such items increasingly are showing up on credit card bills.

"Everything's going up ? dairy, gas, home taxes," says Christie Carlson, 34, a single mother of five children, ages 5 to 14, in Tomah, Wis., who enrolled in a debt-management program after racking up $20,000 in card debt. "I'm trying to pay more for everything in cash, but it's just impossible. It's not feasible right now to stop spending on the credit card."

During the past year, credit card debt has ballooned most rapidly in parts of the nation where the economy is particularly weak, including California, Florida, Arizona and Nevada, says Mark Zandi, chief economist for Moody's Economy.com.

"That suggests that people are turning to their cards in times of financial need," Zandi says. "They're losing jobs and overtime hours and other income and trying to supplement their lower incomes with more spending on credit cards."

Magnifying the problem has been the shrinking availability of a major alternative to credit cards: home equity loans. As home values have sunk, homeowners have found it tougher to qualify for such loans. So they've turned elsewhere, especially to credit cards, to cover daily expenses.

Even as mortgage growth slowed from April 2006 through December 2007, card debt accelerated, according to an analysis by the Center for American Progress, a liberal think tank in Washington, D.C.

"As people get squeezed, they still have the credit demand," says Christian Weller, a senior fellow at the center. "For a few years, mortgages and home equity lines replaced credit card debt. Now, we're swinging back to the credit cards."

Like 'broke college students'

Allen Lisowe and his wife, Jennifer, both 33, say they're living like "broke college students," relying on their credit cards to buy the "stuff we need every day," such as groceries and gas.

The Lisowes, of New Holstein, Wis., racked up about $20,000 in credit card debt in recent years, most of it from daily expenses such as gas and food. Two years ago, the couple used a home equity loan to pay credit card and auto loan bills. They say they'd consider borrowing from their home equity again, but there's little equity left to tap.

The growing reliance on plastic may explain why revolving debt ? most of which is on credit cards ? rose at a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 7.8%, to a record $943.5 billion, in 2007 compared with a 6.1% adjusted rate the year before, according to the Federal Reserve.

Eventually, a worsening economy could limit the rise in card debt. If the current slowdown turns into a full-fledged recession, many analysts say, lenders could clamp down further on credit. And consumers would cut back so much on discretionary purchases that, despite their increasing use of credit cards for daily necessities, the rise in overall card debt would likely slow.

There's some sign this may be occurring already: After two months of rapid increases, the growth of revolving debt slowed in December, preliminary data from the Federal Reserve indicate. Credit card figures, though, normally are volatile from month to month. It'll be three to six months before it's clear whether consumers are indeed cutting back on plastic.

The danger is that "The economy has relied on the consumer to keep it afloat for the last seven years, and there's no more gas in the tank of the consumer," says Howard Dvorkin of Consolidated Credit Counseling Services in Fort Lauderdale. "They've got nothing to give."

James Chessen, chief economist at the American Bankers Association, a trade group, predicts that "credit card debt is going to slow, but not as much" as in previous economic downturns.

During the housing boom, too many people took out mortgages they couldn't afford. Many now owe more on their houses than they're worth. Some are defaulting on their mortgages ? figuring they'll lose their homes anyway ? even as they keep paying credit card and auto bills, credit counselors say.

"A lot of people are exhibiting a kind of fatalistic behavior to their mortgages," says Douglas Hammond, outreach programs director at Alliance Credit Counseling. "They can't make their mortgage payment, so why (try to) make it at all? 'Let's keep my car, make my payment on my credit card, so I have some way of feeding my family.' "

When consumers are "pushed to the wall" and forced to choose between paying the mortgage or credit card bill, Chessen says, those who are likely to lose their homes may choose their credit cards, because "They still need to heat their homes, put food on their tables and fill their cars with gas."

Allowing your house to be foreclosed on is "not a smart strategy," Hammond says, "because foreclosure does horrible things to your credit score, and you'll pay high interest rates" on future loans.

Because it takes months to foreclose on a home, some consumers likely are hoping to stave off foreclosure if their finances improve, says Linda Haran, senior director of Experian Decision Analytics.

A study by Experian found that consumers with weak credit scores ? but not necessarily those with strong ones ? are paying their credit card bills before their mortgage payments.

The study didn't examine car loans. But an Equifax analysis shows that 38% of delinquent mortgage borrowers had kept all their credit card bills current, and 62% had kept all their auto loans current in the two-year period ending in July 2007. In the past, most people would pay late on their credit cards and auto loans before doing so on their mortgages.

This reversal in payment priorities helps explain why the rise in credit card and auto loan defaults ? which occur when lenders give up trying to recover a debt ? hasn't matched the pace of mortgage defaults. Credit card defaults, while rising fast, are still in line with historic averages.

As the economy has worsened, card issuers have become more selective about offering credit to new customers, and in a growing number of cases, are shrinking card holders' credit limits. Yet they're still sending more solicitations to existing credit card customers. In 2007, issuers increased their solicitations to existing customers by 15.6%, advertising rewards and other perks to promote spending, according to Mintel, a firm that tracks such mailings.

Subprime customers ? among the most profitable for banks because of the high rates and fees on their cards ? saw a 41% jump in direct-mail credit card offers in the first half of 2007, the latest period for which figures were available, compared with the same period the year before, Mintel found.

It's a matter of time, some analysts say, before financially squeezed consumers max out their credit cards and start defaulting in larger numbers.

"My guess is that you'll see increasing numbers of people walking away from credit card debt the same way that they're walking away from the mortgages," says Ken McEldowney, an executive director at Consumer Action, a consumer advocacy group.

When Phyllis Coleman's mortgage payment jumped 26% last year, she began withdrawing cash from her credit cards to pay the mortgage. That worked for a few months, until Coleman, 50, of Fairfield, Calif., maxed out on the cards' credit limit. She defaulted on her mortgage and now faces foreclosure on her home.

Eventually, she also had to stop paying her credit cards, which she'd been relying on to cover daily expenses. "It became too much," Coleman says, "when gas started going up. I just got deeper and deeper" in debt.

Using credit cards for gas

Consumers with the least financial resources are pressured the most by a deteriorating economy and rising living costs. For this group, credit cards are simply a way to delay the financial pain.

In recent years, banks have ramped up card rewards, enticing more people to charge their purchases. As gas costs rise to levels many people can't afford ? the national average for regular gas this week was $3.16 a gallon, up 32% from the same time last year ? the number of consumers buying gas with credit cards instead of cash is accelerating, says Sonja Hubbard, CEO of E-Z Mart Stores, which has 307 locations in five states.

"People have less cash in their pocket, and if you have a $10 bill, that doesn't get you a lot of gas anymore," says Hubbard, who notes that most of her customers now charge gas to credit cards.

The move toward using credit cards for daily needs is occurring among blue-collar and white-collar professionals, credit counselors say.

"I put three doctors on debt-management plans and thought, 'Wow, it's getting tough,' " says Anissa Lipscomb, a credit counselor in Gaston, N.C. The doctors had sought counseling, Lipscomb says, because of surging insurance rates, high credit card debt and patients who had defaulted on medical bills.

For years, rising health care costs have cut into families' discretionary income. But if the economy worsens, employers are likely to pass along higher health care costs to workers. That, in turn, could force more people of all income levels to boost their use of credit cards.

"Your typical American household is very vulnerable, and they've been vulnerable for a long time," says Tamara Draut of Demos, a think tank in New York. "Now that energy costs are going up, health care (costs) are going up, people are turning to credit cards."

Annie Edwards, a credit counselor in Rapid City, S.D., says a growing number of clients are charging health care expenses. Financial firms are encouraging them to do so with the rollout of cards and lines of credit designed specifically for health care, she notes.

In October, Republic Bank (RBCAA) and Humana (HUM) introduced the HumanaAdvance health care credit card, which can be used at hospitals and doctors' and dentists' offices.

The card, says Steve Trager, CEO of Republic Bank, assures users that they "will have a means to pay for unexpected health care expenses." Citigroup (C), Capital One (COF) and General Electric's (GE) CareCredit division also offer loans for medical costs.

Diane Drew, a credit counselor in Menasha, Wis., says people "want to make sure they can get the health care they need for them and their families," even if it means going into debt.

Maria Fernandez, a real estate agent in Rodeo, Calif., says the weak housing market has cut deeply into her commissions and made it harder to pay her own mortgage. Worse, the payment on her adjustable-rate mortgage jumped 17% in October. Fernandez, 40, asked her lender to modify the loan to reduce her monthly payment. She was rejected. So she's resigned to losing her house in foreclosure this year.

Meanwhile, she says she's committed to paying her credit card debts ? which she's consolidated with a debt-management agency ? while she has the money. "It's really stressful. I can only afford to pay my credit cards."

Contributing: Venuri Siriwardane
 

SSSnail

Lifer
Nov 29, 2006
17,461
80
86
So wait, while our currency is pretty much pegged to debts, does that mean the value of the dollar will drop even more if this trillion is defaulted? :shocked:
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
141
116
Originally posted by: SSSnail
So wait, while our currency is pretty much pegged to debts, does that mean the value of the dollar will drop even more if this trillion is defaulted? :shocked:
Well the story points out some interesting things, namely:

As home prices drop, home owners have little equity to borrow with, and turn to credit cards in higher numbers.

For people already in bad subprime lending situations, credit cards may only delay the inevitable. They'll default on their high interest credit cards soon after they lose their homes/cars.

I doubt the majority of debt is high risk, but even if 1 in 10 defaulted, that would be a huge loss for the banking industry that has already been hit very hard by home and auto defaults.
 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,381
94
86
Let me get some arguments out of the way.


DOOOOOOOOOOMMMM!!!!!!!!!


Down with fiat!!!!!!



HORDE GOLD!!!!!!!!!


Ok, commence intelligent discussion.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,522
4,198
126
Yup and it's going to be interesting when Americans all of a sudden say, "We've been fucked by the rich and we aren't going to pay."
 

GoingUp

Lifer
Jul 31, 2002
16,720
0
71
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Yup and it's going to be interesting when Americans all of a sudden say, "We've been fucked by the rich and we aren't going to pay."
You reap what you sow. For years many Americans have lived beyond their means and piled up debt so they can demonstrate their "wealth" to their neighbors and friends. The last 5 years, I think it's safe to say, most American's havent been putting gas and groceries on credit cards to try to survive.... they've been piling up new cars, clothes, trips and jewlery.
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
27,063
869
126
At least the Bankruptcy laws have changed so the totally irresponsible don't get to completely skate away from their obligations, as used to be the case. Now most people have to pay some of it back, unless they are below median income for their geographical area.

I wonder if we could be on the brink of bankruptcy law reform again, with the direction the economy is headed?
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
1
61
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Yup and it's going to be interesting when Americans all of a sudden say, "We've been fucked by the rich and we aren't going to pay."
Tell that to older people on a fixed income which has been smacked down by the inflation tax.
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
0
0
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Yup and it's going to be interesting when Americans all of a sudden say, "We've been fucked by the rich and we aren't going to pay."
Tell that to older people on a fixed income which has been smacked down by the inflation tax.
How about we tell them to get a job.
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
27,063
869
126
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Yup and it's going to be interesting when Americans all of a sudden say, "We've been fucked by the rich and we aren't going to pay."
Tell that to older people on a fixed income which has been smacked down by the inflation tax.
How about we tell them to get a job.
I'm sure they'd be happy to grab their canes and aluminum walkers and get right on it.

 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Yup and it's going to be interesting when Americans all of a sudden say, "We've been fucked by the rich and we aren't going to pay."
Tell that to older people on a fixed income which has been smacked down by the inflation tax.
How about we tell them to get a job.
You mean that they might have to going back to living in combined families or even working past 62? GASP! That can't possibly happen!
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
62,345
14,566
136
Nice dodge, LK, mixed with misperception and disinformation. Many seniors do live in extended family settings, with their fixed incomes contributing at least partially to the whole family's financial picture. It's probably more common than you imagine, given that the average SS cheque is only ~$800/mo, last time I checked...

What's passed for "growth" over the last 30 years or so really has a very narrow number of beneficiaries, something that can be seen in stagnant to negative median incomes and explosive income growth at the top. Every time there's a boom, the middle class just plays catch up, or tries to, and every downturn means they liquidate assets to stay afloat. At the present time, fewer and fewer people have assets to liquidate, leading to increased dependency on credit... Other than their homes, few Americans actually own any appreciable assets to speak of... They just have overhead.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,991
853
126
Originally posted by: Gobadgrs
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Yup and it's going to be interesting when Americans all of a sudden say, "We've been fucked by the rich and we aren't going to pay."
You reap what you sow. For years many Americans have lived beyond their means and piled up debt so they can demonstrate their "wealth" to their neighbors and friends. The last 5 years, I think it's safe to say, most American's havent been putting gas and groceries on credit cards to try to survive.... they've been piling up new cars, clothes, trips and jewlery.
You, sir, are 100% correct. Even when I was making $2.90/hr + tips working 4 days/week, while married, I managed to live within my means. People think they deserve it. Part of it is the whole "if theres a way to get it, Im gonna" attitude in this country. The reason Asian's, for example, are wealthy and self sufficient is their mindset.

As baby boomers start retiring with little or no retirement saved, my generation and the ones after are fucked. We will pay for their selfishness and lack of planning. I love people who are retiring soon and think $200,000 is alot of money. ROFL they'll be greeters at WalMart in 5 years.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,991
853
126
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Yup and it's going to be interesting when Americans all of a sudden say, "We've been fucked by the rich and we aren't going to pay."
Tell that to older people on a fixed income which has been smacked down by the inflation tax.
you mean the ones who were too selfish and lazy to save?
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,991
853
126
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Nice dodge, LK, mixed with misperception and disinformation. Many seniors do live in extended family settings, with their fixed incomes contributing at least partially to the whole family's financial picture. It's probably more common than you imagine, given that the average SS cheque is only ~$800/mo, last time I checked...

What's passed for "growth" over the last 30 years or so really has a very narrow number of beneficiaries, something that can be seen in stagnant to negative median incomes and explosive income growth at the top. Every time there's a boom, the middle class just plays catch up, or tries to, and every downturn means they liquidate assets to stay afloat. At the present time, fewer and fewer people have assets to liquidate, leading to increased dependency on credit... Other than their homes, few Americans actually own any appreciable assets to speak of... They just have overhead.
Wrong. From 2006's SS increase

The average Social Security benefit recipient will see his or her monthly check increase from $963 this year to $1,002 next year.

yeah yeah yeah it's not a big increase as many of you will bitch about. But 100% of something is more than 100% of nothing.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,991
853
126
Originally posted by: alien42
i am an American proud to be debt free my entire life.
Me too. I use my CC for gas purchases , but its paid off end of the month.

Oh also for airline and hotel reservations when I travel out of country at least once a year. Thats about it.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
62,345
14,566
136
It's been awhile since I looked it up, blackangst1- thanks for the update.

The rest of the article you link is illustrative, as well, showing the one step forward and two steps back situation faced by many elderly people.

Which bolsters what I said, rather than countering it- both of us would probably starve to death on $1053/mo, and for about 1/3 of America's elderly, SS is their total income...

Meaning that many do, in truth, live in extended family situations, contrary to LK's assertion, even those who have other income sources. And the current situation of rising debt and increased expense for families in general tells us more about reality than any well massaged govt inflation figures...

Nor is it merely about debt per se, but about assets, which fewer and fewer actually have, and about the overhead of daily life, which isn't getting any smaller, even for the frugal...

And about unrealistic expectations, unrealistic faith in the system, and often unwarranted faith in the future... People wouldn't go into debt otherwise...
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,991
853
126
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
It's been awhile since I looked it up, blackangst1- thanks for the update.

The rest of the article you link is illustrative, as well, showing the one step forward and two steps back situation faced by many elderly people.

Which bolsters what I said, rather than countering it- both of us would probably starve to death on $1053/mo, and for about 1/3 of America's elderly, SS is their total income...

Meaning that many do, in truth, live in extended family situations, contrary to LK's assertion, even those who have other income sources. And the current situation of rising debt and increased expense for families in general tells us more about reality than any well massaged govt inflation figures...

Nor is it merely about debt per se, but about assets, which fewer and fewer actually have, and about the overhead of daily life, which isn't getting any smaller, even for the frugal...

And about unrealistic expectations, unrealistic faith in the system, and often unwarranted faith in the future... People wouldn't go into debt otherwise...
I agree. I suspect more than 30%, but Im too lazy to look it up.

The main problem is that our government's solution is to find ways to fund the current system for future retirees, and the people's solution is to hire (read: elect) politicians that will do this. The real solution is to reverse the trend of reliance on the government for retirement, and teach people how to save themselves. There's two ways to make alot of money. 1. a little bit of money and alot of time, or 2. alot of money and a little bit of time. Most people have the former. It doesnt take alot to accumulate $1 million + if you start early. Unfortunantly most people dont underastand finances, think it costs too much to invest, and are too selfish and want to spend money on other things.

If people retire poor, it's no one's fault but their own. And before you flame me, this is a generalization. Generalizations are genrally true.
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
0
76
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
It's been awhile since I looked it up, blackangst1- thanks for the update.

The rest of the article you link is illustrative, as well, showing the one step forward and two steps back situation faced by many elderly people.

Which bolsters what I said, rather than countering it- both of us would probably starve to death on $1053/mo, and for about 1/3 of America's elderly, SS is their total income...

Meaning that many do, in truth, live in extended family situations, contrary to LK's assertion, even those who have other income sources. And the current situation of rising debt and increased expense for families in general tells us more about reality than any well massaged govt inflation figures...

Nor is it merely about debt per se, but about assets, which fewer and fewer actually have, and about the overhead of daily life, which isn't getting any smaller, even for the frugal...

And about unrealistic expectations, unrealistic faith in the system, and often unwarranted faith in the future... People wouldn't go into debt otherwise...
I agree. I suspect more than 30%, but Im too lazy to look it up.

The main problem is that our government's solution is to find ways to fund the current system for future retirees, and the people's solution is to hire (read: elect) politicians that will do this. The real solution is to reverse the trend of reliance on the government for retirement, and teach people how to save themselves. There's two ways to make alot of money. 1. a little bit of money and alot of time, or 2. alot of money and a little bit of time. Most people have the former. It doesnt take alot to accumulate $1 million + if you start early. Unfortunantly most people dont underastand finances, think it costs too much to invest, and are too selfish and want to spend money on other things.

If people retire poor, it's no one's fault but their own. And before you flame me, this is a generalization. Generalizations are genrally true.
If everybody retired "rich" nobody would be "rich" since the definition of "rich" would change. Since it is impossible for everybody to retire "rich" SS and the like were invented to help support those who cannot retire "rich" but need help to survive in their dotage.



 

xeemzor

Platinum Member
Mar 27, 2005
2,599
0
71
Originally posted by: alien42
i am an American proud to be debt free my entire life.
Never went to school? Unless you have rich parents, expect to be at least $40k under when you are done.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,991
853
126
Originally posted by: GrGr
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
It's been awhile since I looked it up, blackangst1- thanks for the update.

The rest of the article you link is illustrative, as well, showing the one step forward and two steps back situation faced by many elderly people.

Which bolsters what I said, rather than countering it- both of us would probably starve to death on $1053/mo, and for about 1/3 of America's elderly, SS is their total income...

Meaning that many do, in truth, live in extended family situations, contrary to LK's assertion, even those who have other income sources. And the current situation of rising debt and increased expense for families in general tells us more about reality than any well massaged govt inflation figures...

Nor is it merely about debt per se, but about assets, which fewer and fewer actually have, and about the overhead of daily life, which isn't getting any smaller, even for the frugal...

And about unrealistic expectations, unrealistic faith in the system, and often unwarranted faith in the future... People wouldn't go into debt otherwise...
I agree. I suspect more than 30%, but Im too lazy to look it up.

The main problem is that our government's solution is to find ways to fund the current system for future retirees, and the people's solution is to hire (read: elect) politicians that will do this. The real solution is to reverse the trend of reliance on the government for retirement, and teach people how to save themselves. There's two ways to make alot of money. 1. a little bit of money and alot of time, or 2. alot of money and a little bit of time. Most people have the former. It doesnt take alot to accumulate $1 million + if you start early. Unfortunantly most people dont underastand finances, think it costs too much to invest, and are too selfish and want to spend money on other things.

If people retire poor, it's no one's fault but their own. And before you flame me, this is a generalization. Generalizations are genrally true.
If everybody retired "rich" nobody would be "rich" since the definition of "rich" would change. Since it is impossible for everybody to retire "rich" SS and the like were invented to help support those who cannot retire "rich" but need help to survive in their dotage.
You're not getting it. Im not talking about "rich" here. Im talking about middle class. Let me give you an example. Im 42. If I plan on retiring at 65, and living 20 years afterwards, and to get $45,000/yr in today's dollar, and based on an average inflation rate of 4%, I will need $1,750,000 to do that.

You think almost $2 mill is rich? Youre out of your mind.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,991
853
126
Originally posted by: xeemzor
Originally posted by: alien42
i am an American proud to be debt free my entire life.
Never went to school? Unless you have rich parents, expect to be at least $40k under when you are done.
I paid my way through college in 1985, at $10k/yr for the first two years, and $22k last two. I worked full time. It can be done if it's important.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
1
61
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Yup and it's going to be interesting when Americans all of a sudden say, "We've been fucked by the rich and we aren't going to pay."
Tell that to older people on a fixed income which has been smacked down by the inflation tax.
you mean the ones who were too selfish and lazy to save?
No, the ones who saved, but their savings have been hit by the hidden inflation tax.
 

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