Recommended reading: "Imperial Hubris" by Dr. Michael Scheuer

Polish3d

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Jul 6, 2005
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I would encourage any and everyone to go out and get a copy of this book via library or bookstore and read it. I finished it a week ago and reading it was quite an experience. I cannot recommend it strongly enough. The author and his book shouldn't be categorized into a 'left' or 'right' - leaning piece. In fact, after finishing this analysis I've decided in favor of abandoning this increasingly theatrical, silly, unserious media+politician profiting football game of Left vs. Right. (a decision long overdue and building in my mind for some while).

I recommend the book, it is a perspective from a man who was urging his superiors to take out Bin Laden back in 1996. He is a very bright and interesting individual, with a PhD, masters, and Bachelors in History, as well as a speciality in South Asia and Islam etc. It was a pleasure to share in his knowledge.
 

Polish3d

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Not one which would do justice to the full book, I would just read it. But among his main points:

- What we are facing is a worldwide Islamic INSURGENCY (not "terrorism") whose foundation is based in the notion of DEFENSIVE Jihad, a doctrinally correct response to the US and west's support of corrupt and apostate regimes in muslim lands, theft of muslim wealth at low prices (oil), etc

- Do not underestimate Bin Laden as a murdering lunatic. He is a man in keeping with the traditional heroes of Islam, and his goals are specific and limited.

- It is nearly inevitable that a weapon of mass destruction will be detonated on US soil

- Moral cowardice and corruption (ie, putting career and post-govt. con$ultant opportunities ahead of "doing the right thing" ) is rife among the upper echelons of govt


And more. Read it though, don't be lazy
 

Todd33

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Oct 16, 2003
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Welcome to 2004/2005. Good book, but he definitely blames the WH/Pentegon for the mess, so most on the right would call him a liberal out of ignorance.
 

FrancesBeansRevenge

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Jun 6, 2001
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Frackal, I am impressed with your growth and with your desire for truth.
I went through the same transformation/struggle and I know it's hard, for me it was depressing (accepting some truths about your nation),
but truth and reality are so much more beneficial to the future of our nation than hiding the truth behind waving flags and dogmatic notions of good and evil.

I came to realize that we can't just kill everyone who hates us... especially because we've done so much to create and foster that disdain in many people
(from overthrowing the democratically elected government of Iran to supporting right wing coups in South America which resulted in tens of thousands of deaths and murders).

We MUST examine ourselves in addition to trying to eradicate the current REAL threat (we all know by now Iraq wasn't) or we will simply be creating more and more threats and we'll be forced to live in a continual state of war.
We will have to kill plenty of people yet... that's an unfortunate reality. But there must be internal growth and real change in foreign policy happening at the same time or it will be nothing more than sticking our thumb in the one leaking hole of a dam that's already cracking in many other places.

Thanks for the book recommendation mate.
 

BBond

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Oct 3, 2004
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Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Could you please give a brief summary?

Here is an excerpt from "Imperial Hubris" from NPR. The writer is listed as "anonymous" but has, of course, been identified since this excerpt was posted as Michael Scheuer.

Book Excerpt: 'Imperial Hubris'

NPR.org, June 24, 2004 · The following is an excerpt from Imperial Hubris: Why the West Is Losing the War on Terror by Anonymous, an active senior CIA officer -- and former head of the agency's Osama bin Laden unit.

Introduction: 'Hubris Followed by Defeat'

A confident and care free republic -- the city on the hill, whose people have always believed that they are immune from history's harms -- now has to confront not only an unending imperial destiny but also a remote possibility that seems to haunt the history of empire: hubris followed by defeat.

--Michael Ignatieff, 2003.


As I complete this book, U.S., British, and other coalition forces are trying to govern apparently ungovernable postwar states in Afghanistan and Iraq while simultaneously fighting growing Islamist insurgencies in each -- a state of affairs our leaders call victory. In conducting these activities, and the conventional military campaigns preceding them, U.S. forces and policies are completing the radicalization of the Islamic world, something Osama bin Laden has been trying to do with substantial but incomplete success since the early 1990s. As a result, I think it fair to conclude that the United States of America remains bin Laden's only indispensable ally.

As usual, U.S. leaders are oblivious to this fact and to the dire threat America faces from bin Laden and have followed policies that are making the United States incrementally less secure. They refuse, as Nicholas Kristof brilliantly wrote in the New York Times, to learn the Trojan War's lesson, namely: "[to avoid] the intoxicating pride and overweening ignorance that sometimes clouds the minds of the strong... [and] the paramount need to listen to skeptical views." Instead of facing reality, hubris-soaked U.S. leaders, elites, and media, locked behind an impenetrable wall of political correctness and moral cowardice, act as naive and arrogant cheerleaders for the universal applicability of Western values and feckless overseas military operations omnipotently entitled Resolute Strike, Enduring Freedom, Winter Resolve, Carpathian Strike, Infinite Justice, Valiant Strike, and Vigilant Guardian. While al Qaeda-led, anti-U.S. hatred grows among Muslims, U.S. leaders boast of being able to create democracy anywhere they choose, ignoring history and, as Stanley Kurtz reminded them in Policy Review, failing to regard Hobbes's warning that nothing is more disruptive to peace within a state of nature than vainglory.... If the world is a state of nature on a grand scale, than surely a foreign policy governed by a 'vainglorious' missionizing spirit rather than a calculation of national (and civilizational) interest promises dangerous war and strife.

I believe the war in Afghanistan was necessary, but is being lost because of our hubris. Those who failed to bring peace to Afghanistan after 1992 are now repeating their failure by scripting government affairs and constitution-making in Kabul to portray the birth of Western-style democracy, religious tolerance, and women's rights -- all anathema to Afghan political and tribal culture and none of which has more than a small, unarmed constituency. We are succeeding only in fooling ourselves. Certain the Afghans want to be like us, and abstaining from effective military action against growing numbers of anti-U.S. insurgents, we have allowed the Taliban and al Qaeda to regroup and refit. They are now waging an insurgency that gradually will increase in intensity, lethality, and popular support, and ultimately force Washington to massively escalate its military presence or evacuate. In reality, neither we nor our Karzai-led surrogates have built anything political or economic that will long outlast the withdrawal of U.S. and NATO forces. Due to our hubris, what we today identify and promote as a nascent Afghan democracy is a self-made illusion on life-support; it is a Western-imposed regime that will be swept away if America and its allies stop propping it up with their bayonets.

On Iraq, I must candidly say that I abhor aggressive wars like the one we waged there; it is out of character for America in terms of our history, sense of morality, and basic decency. This is not to argue that preemption is unneeded against immediate threats. Never in our history was preemptive action more needed than in the past decade against the lethal, imminent threat of bin Laden, al Qaeda, and their allies. But the U.S. invasion of Iraq was not preemption; it was -- like our war on Mexico in 1846 -- an avaricious, premeditated, unprovoked war against a foe who posed no immediate threat but whose defeat did offer economic advantages. "Disclaimers issued by the White House notwithstanding, this war has not been thrust upon us. We have chosen it," Boston University's Andrew J. Bacevich wrote in the Los Angeles Times. "The United States no longer views force as something to be used as a last resort. There is a word for this. It's called militarism."

My objective is not to argue the need or morality of the war against Iraq; it is too late for that. That die has been cast, in part because we saw Iraq through lenses tinted by hubris, not reality. My point is, rather, that in terms of America's national security interests -- using the old-fashioned and too-much-ignored definition of national interests as matters of life and death -- we simply chose the wrong time to wage the Iraq war. Our choice of timing, moreover, shows an abject, even willful failure to recognize the ideological power, lethality, and growth potential of the threat personified by Osama bin Laden, as well as the impetus that threat has been given by the U.S.-led invasion and occupation of Muslim Iraq. I tend to think that in the face of an insurgency that was accelerating in Afghanistan in early 2003, we would have been well guided on Iraq by Mr. Lincoln's spring 1861 advice to his secretary of state, William Henry Seward. When Secretary Seward proposed starting a war against Britain and France as a means to unite North and South against a common enemy, Mr. Lincoln wisely said, "Mr. Seward, one war at a time." And because I am loath to believe -- with a few exceptions -- that America's current leaders are dunces, or that I am smarter than they, I can only conclude that for some reason they are unwilling or unable to take bin Laden's measure accurately. Believing that I have some hold on what bin Laden is about, I am herein taking a second shot -- the first was in a book called -- at explaining the dangers our country faces from the forces led and inspired by this truly remarkable man, as well as from the remarkable ineffectiveness of the war America is waging against them.

My thesis is like the one that shaped Through Our Enemies' Eyes, namely, that ideas are the main drivers of human history and, in the words of Perry Miller, the American historian of Puritanism, are "coherent and powerful imperatives to human behavior." In short, my thesis is that the threat Osama bin Laden poses lies in the coherence and consistency of his ideas, their precise articulation, and the acts of war he takes to implement them. That threat is sharpened by the fact that bin Laden's ideas are grounded in and powered by the tenets of Islam, divine guidelines that are completely familiar to most of the world's billion-plus Muslims and lived by them on a daily basis. The commonality of religious ideas and the lifestyle they shape, I would argue, equip bin Laden and his coreligionists with a shared mechanism for perceiving and reacting to world events. "Islam is not only a matter of faith and practice," Professor Bernard Lewis has explained, "it is also an identity and a loyalty -- for many an identity and loyalty that transcends all others." Most important, for this book, the way in which bin Laden perceives the intent of U.S. policies and actions appears to be shared by much of the Islamic world, whether or not the same percentage of Muslims support bin Laden's martial response to those perceived U.S. intentions. "Arabs may deplore this [bin Laden's] violence, but few will not feel some pull of emotions," British journalist Robert Fisk noted in late 2002. "Amid Israel's brutality toward Palestinians and America's threats toward Iraq, at least one Arab is prepared to hit back."

In the context of the ideas bin Laden shares with his brethren, the military actions of al Qaeda and its allies are acts of war, not terrorism; they are part of a defensive jihad sanctioned by the revealed word of God, as contained in the Koran, and the sayings and traditions of the Prophet Mohammed, the Sunnah. These attacks are meant to advance bin Laden's clear, focused, limited, and widely popular foreign policy goals: the end of U.S. aid to Israel and the ultimate elimination of that state; the removal of U.S. and Western forces from the Arabian Peninsula; the removal of U.S. and Western military forces from Iraq, Afghanistan, and other Muslim lands; the end of U.S. support for the oppression of Muslims by Russia, China, and India; the end of U.S. protection for repressive, apostate Muslim regimes in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Egypt, Jordan, et cetera; and the conservation of the Muslim world's energy resources and their sale at higher prices. To secure these goals, bin Laden will make stronger attacks in the United States -- complemented elsewhere by attacks by al Qaeda and other Islamist groups allied with or unconnected to it -- to try to destroy America's resolve to maintain the policies that maintain Israel, apostate Muslim rulers, infidel garrisons in the Prophet's birthplace, and low oil prices for U.S. consumers. Bin Laden is out to drastically alter U.S. and Western policies toward the Islamic world, not necessarily to destroy America, much less its freedoms and liberties. He is a practical warrior, not an apocalyptic terrorist in search of Armageddon. Should U.S. policies not change, the war between America and the Islamists will go on for the foreseeable future. No one can predict how much damage will be caused by America's blind adherence to failed and counterproductive policies, or by the lack of moral courage now visible in the thirty-year-plus failure of U.S. politicians to review Middle East policy and move America to energy self-sufficiency and alternative fuels.
 

IrateLeaf

Member
Jul 27, 2006
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Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Could you please give a brief summary?

Here is an excerpt from "Imperial Hubris" from NPR. The writer is listed as "anonymous" but has, of course, been identified since this excerpt was posted as Michael Scheuer.

Book Excerpt: 'Imperial Hubris'

NPR.org, June 24, 2004 · The following is an excerpt from Imperial Hubris: Why the West Is Losing the War on Terror by Anonymous, an active senior CIA officer -- and former head of the agency's Osama bin Laden unit.

Introduction: 'Hubris Followed by Defeat'

A confident and care free republic -- the city on the hill, whose people have always believed that they are immune from history's harms -- now has to confront not only an unending imperial destiny but also a remote possibility that seems to haunt the history of empire: hubris followed by defeat.

--Michael Ignatieff, 2003.


As I complete this book, U.S., British, and other coalition forces are trying to govern apparently ungovernable postwar states in Afghanistan and Iraq while simultaneously fighting growing Islamist insurgencies in each -- a state of affairs our leaders call victory. In conducting these activities, and the conventional military campaigns preceding them, U.S. forces and policies are completing the radicalization of the Islamic world, something Osama bin Laden has been trying to do with substantial but incomplete success since the early 1990s. As a result, I think it fair to conclude that the United States of America remains bin Laden's only indispensable ally.

As usual, U.S. leaders are oblivious to this fact and to the dire threat America faces from bin Laden and have followed policies that are making the United States incrementally less secure. They refuse, as Nicholas Kristof brilliantly wrote in the New York Times, to learn the Trojan War's lesson, namely: "[to avoid] the intoxicating pride and overweening ignorance that sometimes clouds the minds of the strong... [and] the paramount need to listen to skeptical views." Instead of facing reality, hubris-soaked U.S. leaders, elites, and media, locked behind an impenetrable wall of political correctness and moral cowardice, act as naive and arrogant cheerleaders for the universal applicability of Western values and feckless overseas military operations omnipotently entitled Resolute Strike, Enduring Freedom, Winter Resolve, Carpathian Strike, Infinite Justice, Valiant Strike, and Vigilant Guardian. While al Qaeda-led, anti-U.S. hatred grows among Muslims, U.S. leaders boast of being able to create democracy anywhere they choose, ignoring history and, as Stanley Kurtz reminded them in Policy Review, failing to regard Hobbes's warning that nothing is more disruptive to peace within a state of nature than vainglory.... If the world is a state of nature on a grand scale, than surely a foreign policy governed by a 'vainglorious' missionizing spirit rather than a calculation of national (and civilizational) interest promises dangerous war and strife.

I believe the war in Afghanistan was necessary, but is being lost because of our hubris. Those who failed to bring peace to Afghanistan after 1992 are now repeating their failure by scripting government affairs and constitution-making in Kabul to portray the birth of Western-style democracy, religious tolerance, and women's rights -- all anathema to Afghan political and tribal culture and none of which has more than a small, unarmed constituency. We are succeeding only in fooling ourselves. Certain the Afghans want to be like us, and abstaining from effective military action against growing numbers of anti-U.S. insurgents, we have allowed the Taliban and al Qaeda to regroup and refit. They are now waging an insurgency that gradually will increase in intensity, lethality, and popular support, and ultimately force Washington to massively escalate its military presence or evacuate. In reality, neither we nor our Karzai-led surrogates have built anything political or economic that will long outlast the withdrawal of U.S. and NATO forces. Due to our hubris, what we today identify and promote as a nascent Afghan democracy is a self-made illusion on life-support; it is a Western-imposed regime that will be swept away if America and its allies stop propping it up with their bayonets.

On Iraq, I must candidly say that I abhor aggressive wars like the one we waged there; it is out of character for America in terms of our history, sense of morality, and basic decency. This is not to argue that preemption is unneeded against immediate threats. Never in our history was preemptive action more needed than in the past decade against the lethal, imminent threat of bin Laden, al Qaeda, and their allies. But the U.S. invasion of Iraq was not preemption; it was -- like our war on Mexico in 1846 -- an avaricious, premeditated, unprovoked war against a foe who posed no immediate threat but whose defeat did offer economic advantages. "Disclaimers issued by the White House notwithstanding, this war has not been thrust upon us. We have chosen it," Boston University's Andrew J. Bacevich wrote in the Los Angeles Times. "The United States no longer views force as something to be used as a last resort. There is a word for this. It's called militarism."

My objective is not to argue the need or morality of the war against Iraq; it is too late for that. That die has been cast, in part because we saw Iraq through lenses tinted by hubris, not reality. My point is, rather, that in terms of America's national security interests -- using the old-fashioned and too-much-ignored definition of national interests as matters of life and death -- we simply chose the wrong time to wage the Iraq war. Our choice of timing, moreover, shows an abject, even willful failure to recognize the ideological power, lethality, and growth potential of the threat personified by Osama bin Laden, as well as the impetus that threat has been given by the U.S.-led invasion and occupation of Muslim Iraq. I tend to think that in the face of an insurgency that was accelerating in Afghanistan in early 2003, we would have been well guided on Iraq by Mr. Lincoln's spring 1861 advice to his secretary of state, William Henry Seward. When Secretary Seward proposed starting a war against Britain and France as a means to unite North and South against a common enemy, Mr. Lincoln wisely said, "Mr. Seward, one war at a time." And because I am loath to believe -- with a few exceptions -- that America's current leaders are dunces, or that I am smarter than they, I can only conclude that for some reason they are unwilling or unable to take bin Laden's measure accurately. Believing that I have some hold on what bin Laden is about, I am herein taking a second shot -- the first was in a book called -- at explaining the dangers our country faces from the forces led and inspired by this truly remarkable man, as well as from the remarkable ineffectiveness of the war America is waging against them.

My thesis is like the one that shaped Through Our Enemies' Eyes, namely, that ideas are the main drivers of human history and, in the words of Perry Miller, the American historian of Puritanism, are "coherent and powerful imperatives to human behavior." In short, my thesis is that the threat Osama bin Laden poses lies in the coherence and consistency of his ideas, their precise articulation, and the acts of war he takes to implement them. That threat is sharpened by the fact that bin Laden's ideas are grounded in and powered by the tenets of Islam, divine guidelines that are completely familiar to most of the world's billion-plus Muslims and lived by them on a daily basis. The commonality of religious ideas and the lifestyle they shape, I would argue, equip bin Laden and his coreligionists with a shared mechanism for perceiving and reacting to world events. "Islam is not only a matter of faith and practice," Professor Bernard Lewis has explained, "it is also an identity and a loyalty -- for many an identity and loyalty that transcends all others." Most important, for this book, the way in which bin Laden perceives the intent of U.S. policies and actions appears to be shared by much of the Islamic world, whether or not the same percentage of Muslims support bin Laden's martial response to those perceived U.S. intentions. "Arabs may deplore this [bin Laden's] violence, but few will not feel some pull of emotions," British journalist Robert Fisk noted in late 2002. "Amid Israel's brutality toward Palestinians and America's threats toward Iraq, at least one Arab is prepared to hit back."

In the context of the ideas bin Laden shares with his brethren, the military actions of al Qaeda and its allies are acts of war, not terrorism; they are part of a defensive jihad sanctioned by the revealed word of God, as contained in the Koran, and the sayings and traditions of the Prophet Mohammed, the Sunnah. These attacks are meant to advance bin Laden's clear, focused, limited, and widely popular foreign policy goals: the end of U.S. aid to Israel and the ultimate elimination of that state; the removal of U.S. and Western forces from the Arabian Peninsula; the removal of U.S. and Western military forces from Iraq, Afghanistan, and other Muslim lands; the end of U.S. support for the oppression of Muslims by Russia, China, and India; the end of U.S. protection for repressive, apostate Muslim regimes in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Egypt, Jordan, et cetera; and the conservation of the Muslim world's energy resources and their sale at higher prices. To secure these goals, bin Laden will make stronger attacks in the United States -- complemented elsewhere by attacks by al Qaeda and other Islamist groups allied with or unconnected to it -- to try to destroy America's resolve to maintain the policies that maintain Israel, apostate Muslim rulers, infidel garrisons in the Prophet's birthplace, and low oil prices for U.S. consumers. Bin Laden is out to drastically alter U.S. and Western policies toward the Islamic world, not necessarily to destroy America, much less its freedoms and liberties. He is a practical warrior, not an apocalyptic terrorist in search of Armageddon. Should U.S. policies not change, the war between America and the Islamists will go on for the foreseeable future. No one can predict how much damage will be caused by America's blind adherence to failed and counterproductive policies, or by the lack of moral courage now visible in the thirty-year-plus failure of U.S. politicians to review Middle East policy and move America to energy self-sufficiency and alternative fuels.

I have read the book and I have dismissed almost 70% of it as being uninfoirmed. But he does make some valid points about the Iraqi debacle.
Dr. Michael Scheuer......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Scheuer
Israel and the Lobby
Michael Scheuer entered into the controversy surrouding the Mearsheimer and Walt paper on the "Israel Lobby". He said to NPR that Mearsheimer and Walt are basically right. Israel, according to Scheuer, has engaged in one of the most successful campaigns to influence public opinion in the United States ever conducted by a foreign government. Scheuer said to NPR that "They [Mearsheimer and Walt] should be credited for the courage they have had to actually present a paper on the subject. I hope they move on and do the Saudi lobby, which is probably more dangerous to the United States than the Israeli lobby." [3]

In a review (September, 2004) of Scheuer's book Imperial Hubris, Jeff Helmreich wrote: "Scheuer's claims about support for Israel are tainted by his own distorted view of the Jewish state, which veers from the hysterical (pp. 14, 227) to the comically ignorant (pp. 4, 135), and therefore raises serious questions about his authority to write on the Middle East generally."[4].

In February, 2005, Scheuer gave an interview in which he discussed, among other things, Israeli covert activity in the United States.[5] In the interview, the following exchange took place:

"QUESTIONER: I?m curious ? Gary Rosen from Commentary magazine. If you could just elaborate a little bit on the clandestine ways in which Israel and presumably Jews have managed to so control debate over this fundamental foreign policy question.
SCHEUER: Well, the clandestine aspect is that, clearly, the ability to influence the Congress ? that?s a clandestine activity, a covert activity. You know to some extent, the idea that the Holocaust Museum here in our country is another great ability to somehow make people feel guilty about being the people who did the most to try to end the Holocaust. I find ? I just find the whole debate in the United States unbearably restricted with the inability to factually discuss what goes on between our two countries."
Some commentators used the quotation to ridicule Scheuer.[6],[7] The National Review wrote: "Scheuer worries that he will be abused in the media for expressing his views candidly. Things, it seems, have come to a pretty pass if a man can be accused of anti-Semitism merely for suggesting that the U.S. is controlled by a secret Jewish conspiracy."[8]

[edit]
Islamic media
"On balance, the Islamic media's taste for what the West terms sensationalizing and conspiracy mongering is less than meets the eye. Based on my research, it is apparent that the Islamic media's correspondents and editors work harder, dig deeper, and think more than most of their Western counterparts. This is not to say that the Islamic media do not suffer from sensationalized conspiracy theories, but they probably are no more prone to those faults than their Western colleagues." (Through Our Enemies' Eyes, p. 280)
[edit]
Richard Clarke
"Clarke's book [Against All Enemies] is also a crucial complement to the September 11 panel's failure to condemn Mr. Clinton's failure to capture or kill bin Laden on any of the eight to 10 chances afforded by CIA reporting. Mr. Clarke never mentions that President Bush had no chances to kill bin Laden before September 11 and leaves readers with the false impression that he, Mr. Clinton and Mr. Clinton's national security adviser, Sandy Berger, did their best to end the bin Laden threat. That trio, in my view, abetted al Qaeda, and if the September 11 families were smart they would focus on the dereliction of Dick, Bill and Sandy and not the antics of convicted September 11 conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui."[9]
[edit]
Criticisms
Thomas Joscelyn of Weekly Standard wrote a highly critical piece on Scheuer and an interview Scheuer did on Chris Matthews Hardball. [8] Joscelyn wrote:

"When Michael Scheuer, the first head of the CIA's bin Laden unit, first emerged into public view almost a year ago, it was a curiosity how he could appear in the media--time after time--claiming that there was no evidence of a relationship between Saddam Hussein's Iraq and al Qaeda. It was curious because, in 2002, Scheuer wrote the book Through Our Enemies' Eyes, in which he cited numerous pieces of evidence showing that there was, in fact, a working relationship between Saddam and al Qaeda. That evidence directly contradicted his criticism of the intelligence that led this nation into the Iraq war, which he called a 'Christmas present' for bin Laden."
Scheuer wrote about the relationship between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda in his 2002 book (see above, 2002). Yet when interviewed in 2004 he stated that he had found no evidence of a Saddam/al-Qaeda connection. Tim Russert asked Scheuer to explain the seeming contradiction on Meet the Press (30 November 2004). Scheuer replied:

"I certainly saw a link when I was writing the books in terms of the open-source literature, unclassified literature, but I had nothing to do with Iraq during my professional career until the run-up to the war. What I was talking about on "Hardball" was I was assigned the duty of going back about nine or 10 years in the classified archives of the CIA. I went through roughly 19,000 documents, probably totaling 50,000 to 60,000 pages, and within that corpus of material, there was absolutely no connection in the terms of a--in terms of a relationship--in the terms of a relationship."[9]

i did like the part of your post BBond when you said -- Frackal, I am impressed with your growth and with your desire for truth.
I went through the same transformation/struggle and I know it's hard, for me it was depressing (accepting some truths about your nation),
but truth and reality are so much more beneficial to the future of our nation than hiding the truth behind waving flags and dogmatic notions of good and evil.

I came to realize that we can't just kill everyone who hates us... especially because we've done so much to create and foster that disdain in many people
(from overthrowing the democratically elected government of Iran to supporting right wing coups in South America which resulted in tens of thousands of deaths and murders).
That was moving.....

I will say this sure GWB got busted in his reasons for going into Iraq. I believe we are looking for a wayout as we speak.
But i also will tell you I was seriously wondering why instead of Iraq we didn`t go after Qsama with a little more vigor and determination. That is something the american people would have supported.

Over this guy regardless of his academic credential appears to be one of these so called educated idiots.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Could you please give a brief summary?

Here is an excerpt from "Imperial Hubris" from NPR. The writer is listed as "anonymous" but has, of course, been identified since this excerpt was posted as Michael Scheuer.

Book Excerpt: 'Imperial Hubris'

NPR.org, June 24, 2004 · The following is an excerpt from Imperial Hubris: Why the West Is Losing the War on Terror by Anonymous, an active senior CIA officer -- and former head of the agency's Osama bin Laden unit.

Introduction: 'Hubris Followed by Defeat'

A confident and care free republic -- the city on the hill, whose people have always believed that they are immune from history's harms -- now has to confront not only an unending imperial destiny but also a remote possibility that seems to haunt the history of empire: hubris followed by defeat.

--Michael Ignatieff, 2003.


As I complete this book, U.S., British, and other coalition forces are trying to govern apparently ungovernable postwar states in Afghanistan and Iraq while simultaneously fighting growing Islamist insurgencies in each -- a state of affairs our leaders call victory. In conducting these activities, and the conventional military campaigns preceding them, U.S. forces and policies are completing the radicalization of the Islamic world, something Osama bin Laden has been trying to do with substantial but incomplete success since the early 1990s. As a result, I think it fair to conclude that the United States of America remains bin Laden's only indispensable ally.

As usual, U.S. leaders are oblivious to this fact and to the dire threat America faces from bin Laden and have followed policies that are making the United States incrementally less secure. They refuse, as Nicholas Kristof brilliantly wrote in the New York Times, to learn the Trojan War's lesson, namely: "[to avoid] the intoxicating pride and overweening ignorance that sometimes clouds the minds of the strong... [and] the paramount need to listen to skeptical views." Instead of facing reality, hubris-soaked U.S. leaders, elites, and media, locked behind an impenetrable wall of political correctness and moral cowardice, act as naive and arrogant cheerleaders for the universal applicability of Western values and feckless overseas military operations omnipotently entitled Resolute Strike, Enduring Freedom, Winter Resolve, Carpathian Strike, Infinite Justice, Valiant Strike, and Vigilant Guardian. While al Qaeda-led, anti-U.S. hatred grows among Muslims, U.S. leaders boast of being able to create democracy anywhere they choose, ignoring history and, as Stanley Kurtz reminded them in Policy Review, failing to regard Hobbes's warning that nothing is more disruptive to peace within a state of nature than vainglory.... If the world is a state of nature on a grand scale, than surely a foreign policy governed by a 'vainglorious' missionizing spirit rather than a calculation of national (and civilizational) interest promises dangerous war and strife.

I believe the war in Afghanistan was necessary, but is being lost because of our hubris. Those who failed to bring peace to Afghanistan after 1992 are now repeating their failure by scripting government affairs and constitution-making in Kabul to portray the birth of Western-style democracy, religious tolerance, and women's rights -- all anathema to Afghan political and tribal culture and none of which has more than a small, unarmed constituency. We are succeeding only in fooling ourselves. Certain the Afghans want to be like us, and abstaining from effective military action against growing numbers of anti-U.S. insurgents, we have allowed the Taliban and al Qaeda to regroup and refit. They are now waging an insurgency that gradually will increase in intensity, lethality, and popular support, and ultimately force Washington to massively escalate its military presence or evacuate. In reality, neither we nor our Karzai-led surrogates have built anything political or economic that will long outlast the withdrawal of U.S. and NATO forces. Due to our hubris, what we today identify and promote as a nascent Afghan democracy is a self-made illusion on life-support; it is a Western-imposed regime that will be swept away if America and its allies stop propping it up with their bayonets.

On Iraq, I must candidly say that I abhor aggressive wars like the one we waged there; it is out of character for America in terms of our history, sense of morality, and basic decency. This is not to argue that preemption is unneeded against immediate threats. Never in our history was preemptive action more needed than in the past decade against the lethal, imminent threat of bin Laden, al Qaeda, and their allies. But the U.S. invasion of Iraq was not preemption; it was -- like our war on Mexico in 1846 -- an avaricious, premeditated, unprovoked war against a foe who posed no immediate threat but whose defeat did offer economic advantages. "Disclaimers issued by the White House notwithstanding, this war has not been thrust upon us. We have chosen it," Boston University's Andrew J. Bacevich wrote in the Los Angeles Times. "The United States no longer views force as something to be used as a last resort. There is a word for this. It's called militarism."

My objective is not to argue the need or morality of the war against Iraq; it is too late for that. That die has been cast, in part because we saw Iraq through lenses tinted by hubris, not reality. My point is, rather, that in terms of America's national security interests -- using the old-fashioned and too-much-ignored definition of national interests as matters of life and death -- we simply chose the wrong time to wage the Iraq war. Our choice of timing, moreover, shows an abject, even willful failure to recognize the ideological power, lethality, and growth potential of the threat personified by Osama bin Laden, as well as the impetus that threat has been given by the U.S.-led invasion and occupation of Muslim Iraq. I tend to think that in the face of an insurgency that was accelerating in Afghanistan in early 2003, we would have been well guided on Iraq by Mr. Lincoln's spring 1861 advice to his secretary of state, William Henry Seward. When Secretary Seward proposed starting a war against Britain and France as a means to unite North and South against a common enemy, Mr. Lincoln wisely said, "Mr. Seward, one war at a time." And because I am loath to believe -- with a few exceptions -- that America's current leaders are dunces, or that I am smarter than they, I can only conclude that for some reason they are unwilling or unable to take bin Laden's measure accurately. Believing that I have some hold on what bin Laden is about, I am herein taking a second shot -- the first was in a book called -- at explaining the dangers our country faces from the forces led and inspired by this truly remarkable man, as well as from the remarkable ineffectiveness of the war America is waging against them.

My thesis is like the one that shaped Through Our Enemies' Eyes, namely, that ideas are the main drivers of human history and, in the words of Perry Miller, the American historian of Puritanism, are "coherent and powerful imperatives to human behavior." In short, my thesis is that the threat Osama bin Laden poses lies in the coherence and consistency of his ideas, their precise articulation, and the acts of war he takes to implement them. That threat is sharpened by the fact that bin Laden's ideas are grounded in and powered by the tenets of Islam, divine guidelines that are completely familiar to most of the world's billion-plus Muslims and lived by them on a daily basis. The commonality of religious ideas and the lifestyle they shape, I would argue, equip bin Laden and his coreligionists with a shared mechanism for perceiving and reacting to world events. "Islam is not only a matter of faith and practice," Professor Bernard Lewis has explained, "it is also an identity and a loyalty -- for many an identity and loyalty that transcends all others." Most important, for this book, the way in which bin Laden perceives the intent of U.S. policies and actions appears to be shared by much of the Islamic world, whether or not the same percentage of Muslims support bin Laden's martial response to those perceived U.S. intentions. "Arabs may deplore this [bin Laden's] violence, but few will not feel some pull of emotions," British journalist Robert Fisk noted in late 2002. "Amid Israel's brutality toward Palestinians and America's threats toward Iraq, at least one Arab is prepared to hit back."

In the context of the ideas bin Laden shares with his brethren, the military actions of al Qaeda and its allies are acts of war, not terrorism; they are part of a defensive jihad sanctioned by the revealed word of God, as contained in the Koran, and the sayings and traditions of the Prophet Mohammed, the Sunnah. These attacks are meant to advance bin Laden's clear, focused, limited, and widely popular foreign policy goals: the end of U.S. aid to Israel and the ultimate elimination of that state; the removal of U.S. and Western forces from the Arabian Peninsula; the removal of U.S. and Western military forces from Iraq, Afghanistan, and other Muslim lands; the end of U.S. support for the oppression of Muslims by Russia, China, and India; the end of U.S. protection for repressive, apostate Muslim regimes in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Egypt, Jordan, et cetera; and the conservation of the Muslim world's energy resources and their sale at higher prices. To secure these goals, bin Laden will make stronger attacks in the United States -- complemented elsewhere by attacks by al Qaeda and other Islamist groups allied with or unconnected to it -- to try to destroy America's resolve to maintain the policies that maintain Israel, apostate Muslim rulers, infidel garrisons in the Prophet's birthplace, and low oil prices for U.S. consumers. Bin Laden is out to drastically alter U.S. and Western policies toward the Islamic world, not necessarily to destroy America, much less its freedoms and liberties. He is a practical warrior, not an apocalyptic terrorist in search of Armageddon. Should U.S. policies not change, the war between America and the Islamists will go on for the foreseeable future. No one can predict how much damage will be caused by America's blind adherence to failed and counterproductive policies, or by the lack of moral courage now visible in the thirty-year-plus failure of U.S. politicians to review Middle East policy and move America to energy self-sufficiency and alternative fuels.

I have read the book and I have dismissed almost 70% of it as being uninfoirmed. But he does make some valid points about the Iraqi debacle.
Dr. Michael Scheuer......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Scheuer
Israel and the Lobby
Michael Scheuer entered into the controversy surrouding the Mearsheimer and Walt paper on the "Israel Lobby". He said to NPR that Mearsheimer and Walt are basically right. Israel, according to Scheuer, has engaged in one of the most successful campaigns to influence public opinion in the United States ever conducted by a foreign government. Scheuer said to NPR that "They [Mearsheimer and Walt] should be credited for the courage they have had to actually present a paper on the subject. I hope they move on and do the Saudi lobby, which is probably more dangerous to the United States than the Israeli lobby." [3]

In a review (September, 2004) of Scheuer's book Imperial Hubris, Jeff Helmreich wrote: "Scheuer's claims about support for Israel are tainted by his own distorted view of the Jewish state, which veers from the hysterical (pp. 14, 227) to the comically ignorant (pp. 4, 135), and therefore raises serious questions about his authority to write on the Middle East generally."[4].

In February, 2005, Scheuer gave an interview in which he discussed, among other things, Israeli covert activity in the United States.[5] In the interview, the following exchange took place:

"QUESTIONER: I?m curious ? Gary Rosen from Commentary magazine. If you could just elaborate a little bit on the clandestine ways in which Israel and presumably Jews have managed to so control debate over this fundamental foreign policy question.
SCHEUER: Well, the clandestine aspect is that, clearly, the ability to influence the Congress ? that?s a clandestine activity, a covert activity. You know to some extent, the idea that the Holocaust Museum here in our country is another great ability to somehow make people feel guilty about being the people who did the most to try to end the Holocaust. I find ? I just find the whole debate in the United States unbearably restricted with the inability to factually discuss what goes on between our two countries."
Some commentators used the quotation to ridicule Scheuer.[6],[7] The National Review wrote: "Scheuer worries that he will be abused in the media for expressing his views candidly. Things, it seems, have come to a pretty pass if a man can be accused of anti-Semitism merely for suggesting that the U.S. is controlled by a secret Jewish conspiracy."[8]

[edit]
Islamic media
"On balance, the Islamic media's taste for what the West terms sensationalizing and conspiracy mongering is less than meets the eye. Based on my research, it is apparent that the Islamic media's correspondents and editors work harder, dig deeper, and think more than most of their Western counterparts. This is not to say that the Islamic media do not suffer from sensationalized conspiracy theories, but they probably are no more prone to those faults than their Western colleagues." (Through Our Enemies' Eyes, p. 280)
[edit]
Richard Clarke
"Clarke's book [Against All Enemies] is also a crucial complement to the September 11 panel's failure to condemn Mr. Clinton's failure to capture or kill bin Laden on any of the eight to 10 chances afforded by CIA reporting. Mr. Clarke never mentions that President Bush had no chances to kill bin Laden before September 11 and leaves readers with the false impression that he, Mr. Clinton and Mr. Clinton's national security adviser, Sandy Berger, did their best to end the bin Laden threat. That trio, in my view, abetted al Qaeda, and if the September 11 families were smart they would focus on the dereliction of Dick, Bill and Sandy and not the antics of convicted September 11 conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui."[9]
[edit]
Criticisms
Thomas Joscelyn of Weekly Standard wrote a highly critical piece on Scheuer and an interview Scheuer did on Chris Matthews Hardball. [8] Joscelyn wrote:

"When Michael Scheuer, the first head of the CIA's bin Laden unit, first emerged into public view almost a year ago, it was a curiosity how he could appear in the media--time after time--claiming that there was no evidence of a relationship between Saddam Hussein's Iraq and al Qaeda. It was curious because, in 2002, Scheuer wrote the book Through Our Enemies' Eyes, in which he cited numerous pieces of evidence showing that there was, in fact, a working relationship between Saddam and al Qaeda. That evidence directly contradicted his criticism of the intelligence that led this nation into the Iraq war, which he called a 'Christmas present' for bin Laden."
Scheuer wrote about the relationship between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda in his 2002 book (see above, 2002). Yet when interviewed in 2004 he stated that he had found no evidence of a Saddam/al-Qaeda connection. Tim Russert asked Scheuer to explain the seeming contradiction on Meet the Press (30 November 2004). Scheuer replied:

"I certainly saw a link when I was writing the books in terms of the open-source literature, unclassified literature, but I had nothing to do with Iraq during my professional career until the run-up to the war. What I was talking about on "Hardball" was I was assigned the duty of going back about nine or 10 years in the classified archives of the CIA. I went through roughly 19,000 documents, probably totaling 50,000 to 60,000 pages, and within that corpus of material, there was absolutely no connection in the terms of a--in terms of a relationship--in the terms of a relationship."[9]

i did like the part of your post BBond when you said -- Frackal, I am impressed with your growth and with your desire for truth.
I went through the same transformation/struggle and I know it's hard, for me it was depressing (accepting some truths about your nation),
but truth and reality are so much more beneficial to the future of our nation than hiding the truth behind waving flags and dogmatic notions of good and evil.

I came to realize that we can't just kill everyone who hates us... especially because we've done so much to create and foster that disdain in many people
(from overthrowing the democratically elected government of Iran to supporting right wing coups in South America which resulted in tens of thousands of deaths and murders).
That was moving.....

I will say this sure GWB got busted in his reasons for going into Iraq. I believe we are looking for a wayout as we speak.
But i also will tell you I was seriously wondering why instead of Iraq we didn`t go after Qsama with a little more vigor and determination. That is something the american people would have supported.

Over this guy regardless of his academic credential appears to be one of these so called educated idiots.

Normally when you call someone uninformed, it's because you feel more well informed and have the education and information necessary to back up your statement. So I'm curious...we know the author's background to some extent, what qualifies you to dismiss "70%" of his conclusions and points as uninformed?
 

imported_Aelius

Golden Member
Apr 25, 2004
1,988
0
0
Here is the problem. Everyone involved, every single last person, is a highly skilled and highly trained liar. They spend 10, 20, 30 years lying. That's not all they do but for many it's a large part of what they do. Especially if they are a clandestine agent at any given time.

So what you need, to truly swallow what it is they are offering to cram down your throat, is proof. Evidence of some kind. Documentation translated from Spook speak to English and presented to the public for wide consumption.

Instead what do they do? They classify every fking thing imaginable that might be some use. Why? To protect their own asses? Probably. It is done so blatantly that I have to ask if it is truly just to protect their own ass or something much darker.

Sadly we will never know until these laws are repealed that protect these corrupt individuals and keep information that is critical to the public from view for many decades.

EDIT: This is partly where Democracy falls flat on its face.
 

IrateLeaf

Member
Jul 27, 2006
183
0
0
Rainsford states---Normally when you call someone uninformed, it's because you feel more well informed and have the education and information necessary to back up your statement. So I'm curious...we know the author's background to some extent, what qualifies you to dismiss "70%" of his conclusions and points as uninformed?

let se where do I start. I grew up in the middle east. namely Israel. I have my BA in History with an emphasis on the Middle East. I am currently working on my masters thesis concrning the geo political environment in the middle east.
I am extremely well read in most subject that are of concern to the midle east.
I have as friends University professors both Arab and Jewish who will tell you that a small amount of what this guys in his book is truthful or factual.
if you would go to wikipedia and read what I posted from that site cponcerning this individual you will find that almost everytime he is interviewed in public or asked a question concrning what some would say is his area of expertise he iether cannot answer the question or his answer to the question is plain jibberish.

Now I ask you. What right do you have to take what this guy says as 100% truth? What qualifies you to judge whether what he says is truth or manufactured falsehood?
Unless your only reason for believeing him 100% hook line and sinker is because you just happen to agree with everything he says! Whether you know it to be factual or not!
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
13,798
11,437
136
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Rainsford states---Normally when you call someone uninformed, it's because you feel more well informed and have the education and information necessary to back up your statement. So I'm curious...we know the author's background to some extent, what qualifies you to dismiss "70%" of his conclusions and points as uninformed?

let se where do I start. I grew up in the middle east. namely Israel. I have my BA in History with an emphasis on the Middle East. I am currently working on my masters thesis concrning the geo political environment in the middle east.
I am extremely well read in most subject that are of concern to the midle east.
I have as friends University professors both Arab and Jewish who will tell you that a small amount of what this guys in his book is truthful or factual.
if you would go to wikipedia and read what I posted from that site cponcerning this individual you will find that almost everytime he is interviewed in public or asked a question concrning what some would say is his area of expertise he iether cannot answer the question or his answer to the question is plain jibberish.

Now I ask you. What right do you have to take what this guy says as 100% truth? What qualifies you to judge whether what he says is truth or manufactured falsehood?
Unless your only reason for believeing him 100% hook line and sinker is because you just happen to agree with everything he says! Whether you know it to be factual or not!

Some people just might find the CIA veteran analyst, former head of the bin Laden group, etc., more credible than a random poster on an internet forum that "has friends". :roll:
 

straightalker

Senior member
Dec 21, 2005
515
0
0
There are two sides to everything going on. The side that loves the truth and the other side.

The CIA does have a few genuine truth lovers who come out of there and write books or become public speakers who speak the truth.

Good Former CIA employee http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_McGovern

Be careful with everything a CIA agent says. It's a compartmentalized organization. There's the Analysts side and the Special Operations side. Analysts generally are kept clean and used as the good face of the CIA. While the Speacial Ops side is on record committing all sorts of heinous acts of barbarism and dope peddling all around the World the past 40+ yearts. It's all on the record what's been done. Common knowledge among those who care enough to know these things.

The phrase "imperial hubris" sounds like an apt description of certain things. But there is so much distortion to deal with to get at the core truth. If Scheuer says Osama Bin Laden was responsible for 9-11 his entire book is highly distorted.

 

fallenangel99

Golden Member
Aug 8, 2001
1,721
1
81

Lol, if it wasn't for us being in the Middle East and cuddly with Saudi Arabia, we would be paying heck of a lot for gas, i.e, $5, $6/gallon maybe (I'm obviously guessing, but you get the idea). Not just gas for your car, but your home heating, transportation costs for retailers, etc. Price for normal goods would increase tremendously.

It is a good thing we are friends with Saudi and they give us oil - low price or not. Say, a hard-line Islamic gov't was ruling Saudi. How much would they charge us for oil? Not just us.. Europe, Asia, etc.

It's a Catch-22 - get oil cheap and have the Middle East hate us or get oil for an absurd price and have the Middle East Love us
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
I have read the book and I have dismissed almost 70% of it as being uninfoirmed.
No, Michael Scheuer is EXTREMELY informed. This area of knowledge was his life's work, after alll. I imagine he has quite a lot more information in this area than you do.

What you are taking issue with is the quality of his information.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Pens1566
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Rainsford states---Normally when you call someone uninformed, it's because you feel more well informed and have the education and information necessary to back up your statement. So I'm curious...we know the author's background to some extent, what qualifies you to dismiss "70%" of his conclusions and points as uninformed?

let se where do I start. I grew up in the middle east. namely Israel. I have my BA in History with an emphasis on the Middle East. I am currently working on my masters thesis concrning the geo political environment in the middle east.
I am extremely well read in most subject that are of concern to the midle east.
I have as friends University professors both Arab and Jewish who will tell you that a small amount of what this guys in his book is truthful or factual.
if you would go to wikipedia and read what I posted from that site cponcerning this individual you will find that almost everytime he is interviewed in public or asked a question concrning what some would say is his area of expertise he iether cannot answer the question or his answer to the question is plain jibberish.

Now I ask you. What right do you have to take what this guy says as 100% truth? What qualifies you to judge whether what he says is truth or manufactured falsehood?
Unless your only reason for believeing him 100% hook line and sinker is because you just happen to agree with everything he says! Whether you know it to be factual or not!

Some people just might find the CIA veteran analyst, former head of the bin Laden group, etc., more credible than a random poster on an internet forum that "has friends". :roll:

Uh, yeah, what he said.

There is no doubt in my mind that even a veteran CIA analyst is wrong some of the time, but as a general rule I'll trust someone who's made that area a subject of their entire work life for a major intelligence agency. Not that you have no credentials at all, but your constant pro-Israel ranting does not paint the picture of someone with a great deal of knowledge on the subject. I find it very difficult to believe you're making an academic study of the topic considering how extremely biased you are. Obviously that's understandable, given that you grew up there...but it doesn't make you a very good person to get unbiased analysis from.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Rainsford states---Normally when you call someone uninformed, it's because you feel more well informed and have the education and information necessary to back up your statement. So I'm curious...we know the author's background to some extent, what qualifies you to dismiss "70%" of his conclusions and points as uninformed?

let se where do I start. I grew up in the middle east. namely Israel. I have my BA in History with an emphasis on the Middle East. I am currently working on my masters thesis concrning the geo political environment in the middle east.
I am extremely well read in most subject that are of concern to the midle east.
I have as friends University professors both Arab and Jewish who will tell you that a small amount of what this guys in his book is truthful or factual.
if you would go to wikipedia and read what I posted from that site cponcerning this individual you will find that almost everytime he is interviewed in public or asked a question concrning what some would say is his area of expertise he iether cannot answer the question or his answer to the question is plain jibberish.

Now I ask you. What right do you have to take what this guy says as 100% truth? What qualifies you to judge whether what he says is truth or manufactured falsehood?
Unless your only reason for believeing him 100% hook line and sinker is because you just happen to agree with everything he says! Whether you know it to be factual or not!

Heh, I would not take your biased view in the matter of ME just like I wouldn't take Bin Ladin's view on ME. I don't care how much experience or education you have in this matter, you all have an agenda, and you all conveniently dismiss or blockout things that doesn't support your agenda. In fact, all your study and work have one goal, that is to support your agenda, instead of really finding the truth.

You gotta be a fool if you think we don't know better.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
I've seen and heard Scheuer and I never heard him talk "gibberish". As a matter of fact, he's one of the very few people in this country that makes any sense at all regarding the "war on terror".

And as a matter of another fact, anyone who claims Scheuer is talking gibberish is talking gibberish themselves.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
Originally posted by: Pens1566
Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
Rainsford states---Normally when you call someone uninformed, it's because you feel more well informed and have the education and information necessary to back up your statement. So I'm curious...we know the author's background to some extent, what qualifies you to dismiss "70%" of his conclusions and points as uninformed?

let se where do I start. I grew up in the middle east. namely Israel. I have my BA in History with an emphasis on the Middle East. I am currently working on my masters thesis concrning the geo political environment in the middle east.
I am extremely well read in most subject that are of concern to the midle east.
I have as friends University professors both Arab and Jewish who will tell you that a small amount of what this guys in his book is truthful or factual.
if you would go to wikipedia and read what I posted from that site cponcerning this individual you will find that almost everytime he is interviewed in public or asked a question concrning what some would say is his area of expertise he iether cannot answer the question or his answer to the question is plain jibberish.

Now I ask you. What right do you have to take what this guy says as 100% truth? What qualifies you to judge whether what he says is truth or manufactured falsehood?
Unless your only reason for believeing him 100% hook line and sinker is because you just happen to agree with everything he says! Whether you know it to be factual or not!

Some people just might find the CIA veteran analyst, former head of the bin Laden group, etc., more credible than a random poster on an internet forum that "has friends". :roll:

Al Capwned :thumbsup:
 

IrateLeaf

Member
Jul 27, 2006
183
0
0
Originally posted by: BBond
I've seen and heard Scheuer and I never heard him talk "gibberish". As a matter of fact, he's one of the very few people in this country that makes any sense at all regarding the "war on terror".

And as a matter of another fact, anyone who claims Scheuer is talking gibberish is talking gibberish themselves.

As if credibility is your middle name.
I bet you have. I have seen him on television a few times and he comes accross as aloof and very very hard to pin down to one answer. Mind you that is when he is talking from the standpoint as an expert on the subject of the middle east.
I have also seen him answer the same question with 2 diometrically opposed answers.
The fact is Scheuer is what some of you need to try to prop up your side in the whole Israel vs Hezbollah War. I am happy you found somebody in your opinion is a credible spokesperson for you.
But like some body else said in this thread -- You gotta be a fool if you think we don't know better.


the bottom line is there are two sides to every story maybe even 3 or 4 sides.

But remember one of the most important things when searching for truth -- make sure its from somebody who already agrees with your position. That is so very important.


shira says-
TheNo, Michael Scheuer is EXTREMELY informed. This area of knowledge was his life's work, after alll. I imagine he has quite a lot more information in this area than you do.

Okay lets look at what you would call information. You mean CIA information don`t you?
Since it stated he was never in the field as a covrt operative. Then I guess his informations comes from other people writing as well.

Then we have those who are crying about civilian casualties embracing this guy when he states for the record -- Civilian casualties -
O'REILLY: I'm bringing it up to be - to show the Islamic world and those Muslims who are watching us right now, the inconsistency of their thought that, if there was a - you know, a God that was actually wanting them to do whatever, how could he possibly want them to
SCHEUER: No, I don't quite follow it, sir, because I -- as much as I'd like to believe that human life is sacred in all instances, war, whether it's conducted by Americans or by British or by Chinese or by Muslims, war is just war. And it kills innocent people. And that's the way it is.
O'REILLY: But there's a way to wage it. And the way that the al Qaedas are waging it is by killing civilians. They're not waging war in a conventional way, as you know. Now...
SCHEUER: Well, they are waging war in the conventional way that we waged war until 1945, sir, which is the last war we've won. Once we stopped waging war in the American fashion, we haven't won a war since....
O'REILLY: Is there anything we can do to win it?
SCHEUER: Yes, sir. We certainly have to kill more of the enemy. That's the first step. O'REILLY: Any way we can?
SCHEUER: Anywhere we can, whenever we can, without a great deal of concern for civilian casualties. As I said, war is war. The people who got killed when they were hosting Zawahiri to dinner were not the friends of the United States.
O'REILLY: All right, Mr Scheuer, always a pleasure to talk with you.

So does this gentleman look like a shining example for those opposed to civilian caualties?

:D

What I find as totally amazing is alot of those who embrace what Michael Scheuer has to say also embrace the 9/11 conspiracy theories. Which is totally opposed to the stance Mr Scheuer takes concerning 9/11.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
The Wheels of Fortune: The small become great and the great become small

1.Might means Right...

2.Hubris and Corruption consume the Rightous...

3.Guerilla Organizations start wars of Attrition to fight for the Injustices of the Right...

4.The Mighty fall and the small rise...

5.Life Goes On

The Wheels of Fortune: The small become great and the great become small
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
13,798
11,437
136
Glad to see JediYoda is back with a new username

<cough>IrateLeaf</cough>
 

Polish3d

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
5,500
0
0
Originally posted by: Todd33
Welcome to 2004/2005. Good book, but he definitely blames the WH/Pentegon for the mess, so most on the right would call him a liberal out of ignorance.



That is not accurate. His description of the failures in govt. and institutions do include the current admin and pentagon, but they are not the central themes in any sense. Although I can see how any criticism of the admin by the CIA might be taken that way, but seriously, zealots will be zealots. =/ (Remember that study of partisans' brain patterns.)