Recent annoncements deepen Palestinian state endgame

[Lemon law]

I am reluctant to post another Israeli thread, as the last one got locked over ever more inconclusive petty bickering.

But two recent developments propel the standoff regarding a Palestinian State back to center stage.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...turned-his-back-on-peace-with-israel-1.412519

Senior Muslim Brotherhood official Essam El-Erian tells 'Al Hayat' if the US cuts aid to Egypt, it would be violation of 1979 peace accords; poll finds 7 in 10 Egyptians want to cut off US assistance.


In regards to the first cited link of "netanyahu-abbas-has-turned-his-back-on-peace-with-israel ", is the standard Iraeli line, as both the Palestinians and Israel accuse each other of wanting all of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and both positions can't be both true. But still, many Israelis and non world leaders have in past warned, any more Israeli settlement on disputed territory will destroy any possibility of a two state settlement. And further that today's Netanyuhu Statement both ignores the EU's Ashton request that both Netanyuhu and Abbas refrain from provocative statements while the Jordanian brokered talks are extended to early March/2012. And secondly, meanwhile Abbas has refrained from taking his Statehood request to the UN general assembly. Maybe point granted, the USA can veto Palestinian Statehood in the security council, but the downside to the USA may be extreme worldwide political isolation.

The second thread, from Jpost is a possibility that Egypt and by extension the wider Arab world will repudiate the 1979 Camp David accords. Which may further diplomatically isolate
both Israel and the USA.

In terms of making any predictions of how events will unfold, we can only see, but I would have to say the entire mid-east has suddenly become a much more dangerous place.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Maybe point granted, the USA can veto Palestinian Statehood in the security council, but the downside to the USA may be extreme worldwide political isolation.

I hate to break it to you but the world isn't going to give a rats behind about this. China has a horrible human rights record and no one is doing a thing. Russia? Same thing. Things are going to go on exactly as they have been and are.

 

[Lemon law]

I hate to break it to you but the world isn't going to give a rats behind about this. China has a horrible human rights record and no one is doing a thing. Russia? Same thing. Things are going to go on exactly as they have been and are.[/QUOTE---------------------------------------------------------------------------

So goes the unprovable Haybabusa statement, but the proof of that will be in the near terms future. Nor did my links mention either Russia or China. the big events may be in a world wide vote in the UN general assembly and increased diplomatic isolation of Israel and the USA.

As I might also say, the larger world may not care much either way about Israeli Palestinian issues, but every nation on earth has a huge stake in the stability of Arab oil in the mid-east.
At least IMHO, a Palestinain State would do much to defuse mid-east tensions.

 

[glenn1]

The second thread, from Jpost is a possibility that Egypt and by extension the wider Arab world will repudiate the 1979 Camp David accords. Which may further diplomatically isolate both Israel and the USA.

Why would Egypt want to repudiate the Camp David accords, since it would mean the almost certain loss of the Sinai back to Israel? There's absolutely nothing to gain for Egypt in it. I could see them cooperating a lot less with Israel, and relationships becoming frosty (on the level of India-Pakistan), but there's no reason for Cairo to go looking for a hornets' nest to kick.

 

[Lemon law]

Why would Egypt want to repudiate the Camp David accords, since it would mean the almost certain loss of the Sinai back to Israel? There's absolutely nothing to gain for Egypt in it. I could see them cooperating a lot less with Israel, and relationships becoming frosty (on the level of India-Pakistan), but there's no reason for Cairo to go looking for a hornets' nest to kick.

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Again Glenn1, I very much doubt Israel would try to move back into Sinai, or that the larger world would permit it.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

So goes the unprovable Haybabusa statement, but the proof of that will be in the near terms future. Nor did my links mention either Russia or China. the big events may be in a world wide vote in the UN general assembly and increased diplomatic isolation of Israel and the USA.

Well you can't prove that the Earth is more than 6k years old can you? Nope, not in any absolute sense however it's pretty damned likely that it is. Likewise no one has given a crap about this before yet you constantly come up with statements that are 180 degrees outside of past events. That's hardly in dispute. Likewise Russia and China's brutal actions aren't in question, yet are they aren't isolated in any meaningful sense. Still, the world is going to become so irate with the US that we're going to be isolated. That makes no sense whatsoever. Your predictive track record has been phenomenal in that it's been remarkably wrong. When you've always been wrong why should we "wait and see" yet again?

 

[Lemon law]

Haybasusa, you too can't prove the earth is 6K years either, but its kinda a red herring on your part because I doubt either of us are trying to prove that on this thread.

But you, Haybabusa, are giving the the larger world zero time to react to the recent developments I posted. Don't you think that people on all sides have to wait some days to see how the larger world reacts?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Haybasusa, you too can't prove the earth is 6K years either, but its kinda a red herring on your part because I doubt either of us are trying to prove that on this thread.

But you, Haybabusa, are giving the the larger world zero time to react to the recent developments I posted. Don't you think that people on all sides have to wait some days to see how the larger world reacts?

Sure, wait all you want since there's nothing for it anyway. It's just that you seem to have these unrealistic expectations which never come about. Frankly there's nothing that most people would rather see than an amicable solution, however this is something that the parties involved are going to have to arrive at. It may take another hundred years, but one thing that time has proven is that forced solutions aren't going to work. Afghanistan is a case in point.

 

[cybrsage]

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Again Glenn1, I very much doubt Israel would try to move back into Sinai, or that the larger world would permit it.

While I agree that Israel would not move back into the Sinai, who would go to war with them to stop them, other than the Arab nations? Russia and China would not, on fear that the US would enter the fray - and they have nothing to gain from it. The EU probably would not, since they do not want to isolate themselves from the US. The US probably would not, as going to war against Israel will ensure that President (and his party) suffer politically for many years to come.

 

[chucky2]

The EU wouldn't, they can barely take on Libya with the US's help, let alone Israel without the US's help. That's just not - ever - going to happen...

 

[OCGuy]

Face it, nobody actually cares about Palistine. They are a tool used by Muslims to bash Jews.

 

[Karl Agathon]

Face it, nobody actually cares about Palistine. They are a tool used by Muslims to bash Jews.

QFT :thumbsup:

 

[monovillage]

1. In case they don't recall the government of Egypt is no longer in power. The Egypt that the U.S. made the peace deal with no longer exists. The 1979 peace deal is null and void.

2. I don't know how much longer the U.S. can keep the Arabs safe from Israel. We've managed to restrain them for decades, but I think they'll eventually solve their problems themselves, probably sooner rather than later.

 

[JEDIYoda]

1. In case they don't recall the government of Egypt is no longer in power. The Egypt that the U.S. made the peace deal with no longer exists. The 1979 peace deal is null and void.

2. I don't know how much longer the U.S. can keep the Arabs safe from Israel. We've managed to restrain them for decades, but I think they'll eventually solve their problems themselves, probably sooner rather than later.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[JEDIYoda]

Face it, nobody actually cares about Palistine. They are a tool used by Muslims to bash Jews.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[JEDIYoda]

I am reluctant to post another Israeli thread, as the last one got locked over ever more inconclusive petty bickering.

But two recent developments propel the standoff regarding a Palestinian State back to center stage.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...turned-his-back-on-peace-with-israel-1.412519

Senior Muslim Brotherhood official Essam El-Erian tells 'Al Hayat' if the US cuts aid to Egypt, it would be violation of 1979 peace accords; poll finds 7 in 10 Egyptians want to cut off US assistance.


In regards to the first cited link of "netanyahu-abbas-has-turned-his-back-on-peace-with-israel ", is the standard Iraeli line, as both the Palestinians and Israel accuse each other of wanting all of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and both positions can't be both true. --- common you and I both know that they both can be very true!
But still, many Israelis and non world leaders have in past warned, any more Israeli settlement on disputed territory will destroy any possibility of a two state settlement. -- don`t hold your breath....you might turn blue...

And further that today's Netanyuhu Statement both ignores the EU's Ashton request that both Netanyuhu and Abbas refrain from provocative statements while the Jordanian brokered talks are extended to early March/2012. -- you and I both knopw they will say what they please...

And secondly, meanwhile Abbas has refrained from taking his Statehood request to the UN general assembly. Maybe point granted, the USA can veto Palestinian Statehood in the security council, but the downside to the USA may be extreme worldwide political isolation.


The second thread, from Jpost is a possibility that Egypt and by extension the wider Arab world will repudiate the 1979 Camp David accords. Which may further diplomatically isolate both Israel and the USA. -- as was pointed out by Monovillage -- In case they don't recall the government of Egypt is no longer in power. The Egypt that the U.S. made the peace deal with no longer exists. The 1979 peace deal is null and void.

In terms of making any predictions of how events will unfold, we can only see, but I would have to say the entire mid-east has suddenly become a much more dangerous place. -- finally you are learning! None of your predictions come true...so why predict??

Finally you think israel has a dismal human rights record....just look at Russia or China. Nobody is isolating them! The bottom line truly is this -- I hate to break it to you but the world isn't going to give a rats behind about this. China has a horrible human rights record and no one is doing a thing. Russia? Same thing. Things are going to go on exactly as they have been and are.

 

[peonyu]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

:thumbsup: For rational people.
Muhammed himself killed countless numbers of Jews [the Quaran has vivid accounts of it] and Muslims today are just following his example. They use "Israel" as the excuse for their hate, but its still just being good Muslims and following their Prophets wishes.

 

[EagleKeeper]

the US and Israel may be isolated.

Yet the moment that someone needs their help all past history is forgotten (not just forgiven).

One of your favorite examples that you are starting to trot out:

You claim that Turkey will come and destroy Israel on the side of the Muslims.
You claim Turkey would send in warships to protect embargo runners.

The second never happened -Turkey issued some worded complaints regarding the attack and that was it.
They needed Israel's help last year, realized that being a stupid idiot would not accomplish anything and then invited Israel to help Turkey in solving it's problems.

 

[cybrsage]

1. In case they don't recall the government of Egypt is no longer in power. The Egypt that the U.S. made the peace deal with no longer exists. The 1979 peace deal is null and void.

2. I don't know how much longer the U.S. can keep the Arabs safe from Israel. We've managed to restrain them for decades, but I think they'll eventually solve their problems themselves, probably sooner rather than later.

It depends, they have the power to nullify things like this, but most new governments put out a blanket statement saying they will honor all previous international treaties. Far less chaos that way.

 

[Whiskey16]

They use "Israel" as the excuse for their hate, but its still just being good Muslims and following their Prophets wishes.

Simple bloody hate speech to propogandize the demeaning of an entire group of people udner this coomon Israeli propogandic line that criticicing Israel for its actions upon Palestinians is 'anti-semitic.

Full on bigoted dishonesty in the previous posts that are all too common on AnandTech.

Muslims all hate Jews and have a dogmatic duty to kill them. Therefore they are all a threat and warrant a response.

Anders Breivik sits in glee.

 

[Whiskey16]

For clarification:

Is the burden of prove upon all Muslims or myself to defensively react against a commonly tolerated falsehood that Islam demands of its followers to attack Jews or any non-Muslim?

In some societies, sadly, Muslims are contemporary targets for generalised xenephobic hatred and fear. Today's Jews, Indians, blacks, Chinese, etc...

Is it tolerabled to declare Jews a threat to security due to the old xenophobic and bigoted belief that they all must control and influence banking systems?

Rightfully it is not permitted to post generalised attacks upon blacks as being a threat due to wrongly perceived criminal inclinations, so why is it continually tolerated to generally state Muslims are an instrinsic violent and security threat?

 

[EagleKeeper]

For clarification:

Is the burden of prove upon all Muslims or myself to defensively react against a commonly tolerated falsehood that Islam demands of its followers to attack Jews or any non-Muslim?

<snip>

Rightfully it is not permitted to post generalised attacks upon blacks as being a threat due to wrongly perceived criminal inclinations, so why is it continually tolerated to generally state Muslims are an instrinsic violent and security threat?

Many Muslims are very tolerant of the Jews.

The problem is that within the Koran, there are guidelines for the destruction of unbelievers including the Jews.

When you have groups of Muslims utilizing the Koran as their prime basis for living and hatred/excuses; determining the separation of the groups becomes difficult.

Many "good" Muslims realize that there is a difference between individual as a religion and the group.

However, there are "bad" Muslims that want to take the Koran as gospel and follow the teachings of the radicals. Regretfully, these are the ones that make headlines and work to destroy a reasonable solution.

A Muslim that I have worked with and respect is from Jordan. The same as his wife. He has worked in Iraq, Saudi, Jordan and the US.

They travel home to Jordan and while there, to Israel for medical and other supplies. Yet they have to have separate sets of documents to allow them to travel within Arab countries.

He despises the Palestinians (leeches) for both what they are doing to the ME and what they have done to Jordan.
He does not hate the Jews or Israel, but feels the best solutions is

the two state solution "New York & New Jersey" 🙂
Give the West Bank back to Jordan, Jerusalem is an international city and Gaza goes to Egypt.
The Palestinians do not need their own place - they will not stand alone without help/handouts - troublemakers

We have had multiple discussions on the area and have come to disagree on some solutions/issues with respect to some Muslim beliefs/actions. Yet we both feel that as long as the radicals are able to influence any side; there will not be an easy solution.

 

[peonyu]

Simple bloody hate speech to propogandize the demeaning of an entire group of people udner this coomon Israeli propogandic line that criticicing Israel for its actions upon Palestinians is 'anti-semitic.

Full on bigoted dishonesty in the previous posts that are all too common on AnandTech.

Muslims all hate Jews and have a dogmatic duty to kill them. Therefore they are all a threat and warrant a response.

Anders Breivik sits in glee.

From the so-called "Holy" Quaran -

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).Sahih Muslim, 41:6985, see also Sahih Muslim, 41:6981, Sahih Muslim, 41:6982, Sahih Muslim, 41:6983, Sahih Muslim, 41:6984, Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:56:791,(Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:177)"


There are numerous quotes from the so-called Holy Quaran that has similar phrases about Jews. If you are a Muslim who 100% believes in the Quaran then Jews have to be seen as a evil people - so evil that the end days requires they are killed. That view of Jews transcends nationality since it IS part of the Islamic religion [it is in the Quaran and spoken by Muhammed afterall] - so a Indonesian Muslim will read the same hate speech about Jews that a Palestinian does, and Muslims of course are required to believe that the Quaran is 100% literal.

Is that hate speech for me to quote factual texts from their Holy book ? Nope not at all.

And the Middle East/Muslim issue with Israel ? Its because Israel is ran by Jews...If Israel was a Muslim state and dirt poor and oppressed the Muslims would not give a shit [look at Syria killing Muslim protestors, where is Hamas to firebomb the Muslim government there? They are nowhere to be seen].

 

[Nebor]

For clarification:

Is the burden of prove upon all Muslims or myself to defensively react against a commonly tolerated falsehood that Islam demands of its followers to attack Jews or any non-Muslim?

In some societies, sadly, Muslims are contemporary targets for generalised xenephobic hatred and fear. Today's Jews, Indians, blacks, Chinese, etc...

Is it tolerabled to declare Jews a threat to security due to the old xenophobic and bigoted belief that they all must control and influence banking systems?

Rightfully it is not permitted to post generalised attacks upon blacks as being a threat due to wrongly perceived criminal inclinations, so why is it continually tolerated to generally state Muslims are an instrinsic violent and security threat?

A growing number of people are seeing through the admittedly clever ruse of Muslims using Western political correctness and multiculturalism against Westerners so that they can supplant Western cultures, laws and societies with their own.

Blacks fought for the civil rights movement, and the widespread level of tolerance found in the Western world today. Muslims simply use that tolerance to trick Western nations into strangling themselves.

I'm as tolerant of Muslims in my country as they are of me in theirs. And let me tell you, the bravest among them shoot at us. The less brave simply plant bombs along roads.