Real torture

XMan

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
12,513
49
91
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de...8546-2106442?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Should be required reading for anybody who thinks that what Time describes happens at Gitmo is torture.

For their edification, the Soviet gulag consisted of hundreds, possibly thousands of forced labor camps that existed from the time of the Russian revolution right up through the Gorbachev era. (As a literary device, Solzhenitsyn compared them to an archipelago or system of islands, which in this case were connected only figuratively). Here somewhere between 18 million and 25 million Soviet citizens ? not foreign-born terrorists or enemy combatants, but Soviet citizens, mostly ? were housed in POW-style barracks and given just enough nourishment, usually, to survive. Unlike POWs, or the current residents of Guantanamo, gulag residents performed slave labor in the mines, forests, and farms of the Soviet empire. This vast pool of unpaid labor was, in fact, instrumental in propping up the otherwise unsustainable Soviet economy.

Solzhenitsyn writes that the gulag interrogators weren't content to simply torture until the pain became so unbearable that one cried out, "I'm guilty. Where do I sign?" Instead, detainees were required to guess which counterrevolutionary crime they had supposedly committed by confessing to one, then another, then another, and so on until by sheer trial and error they stumbled upon which particular, imaginary offense "against the people" their interrogators had pre-determined them guilty of. Only then would the pain stop, making the gulag interrogation process something of a macabre game show. Except that instead of cash and prizes contestants fought for their lives while suspended from a ceiling by their heels with electrodes stuck in their various orifices.

Which is not to say that life inside the gulag was without its perks. These included hands-on training in exciting industries like strip-mining and pole-cat skinning, as much sawdust and fish-head soup as you could eat, sometimes twice a day, and a dental plan which consisted of the occasional rifle butt to the mouth. Plus, many of the camps were located in virtually uninhabitable Siberia, the kind of place where the start of the brief summer season was announced by the appearance of ravenous, crow-sized mosquitoes. The kind of place where any day in which the temperature approached zero degrees Fahrenheit was considered balmy. As opposed to Guantanamo, which I believe is still located on a sun-kissed island in the Caribbean.

O.K., some of you are thinking, what's the catch? Could just anybody sign up for a sweet deal like that? Actually, compared to Guantanamo it was a cinch to get into the old Soviet gulag. You didn't have to be a would-be suicide bomber, or take up arms and shoot at American soldiers, or even actively plot terrorist attacks in faraway places like New York. All you had to do was say or write something against the Soviet government, or even be suspected of doing so. Sometimes just being an intellectual, like being a doctor or a professor, was enough to get you in. And if all else failed you could just get on the wrong side of some petty military bureaucrat like Solzhenitsyn did and it was goodbye, civilian life, hello gulag! Where, of course, you were not entitled to a trial, or a lawyer, or even to hear the charges against you until such time as your mock trial was scheduled.



(from http://www.nationalreview.com/rice/rice200506140804.asp)
 

HombrePequeno

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
4,657
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I have to read that book one of these days. I've read One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich. I'm assuming the Gulag Archipelago is similar?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,674
6,246
126
Some of what is going on in Gitmo is Torture. Soviet methods may have been more extreme, but that doesn't mean lesser forms are something less than torture.

edit: clarity
 

XMan

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
12,513
49
91
Originally posted by: sandorski
Some of what is going on in Gitmo is Torture. Soviet methods may have been more extreme, but that doesn't mean lesser forms are something less than torture.

edit: clarity

What specific things do you personally consider torture?
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Yep, those sucked. I think what's happening in Gitmo should be stopped (though 99% of my offense to all of this is simply that these people are being illegaly held without charges), but I've heard very little that's really "nasty". Most of the stuff is just there to wear you out and it sucks. I'm not saying it would be fun, because it wouldn't be, but it's about the most mild torture a person can experience. They aren't being cut or beaten or held under water or watching their loved ones mutilated or anything like that. Humans are capable of barbarism such that Gitmo would quite literally seem like a day at a beach resort in comparison.

North Korea supposedly has lots of nastiness going on at its gulags, like baby stamping and things of that nature.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Splashing urine on a holy book is not torture.

Maybe some of these whiners need to go and visit the gulags and concentration camps in Russia and Eastern Europe and then come back and write about the gulag in Gitmo.

 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,674
6,246
126
Originally posted by: X-Man
Originally posted by: sandorski
Some of what is going on in Gitmo is Torture. Soviet methods may have been more extreme, but that doesn't mean lesser forms are something less than torture.

edit: clarity

What specific things do you personally consider torture?

It doesn't matter what I think is torture. It has been defined according to the Geneva Convention.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: X-Man
Originally posted by: sandorski
Some of what is going on in Gitmo is Torture. Soviet methods may have been more extreme, but that doesn't mean lesser forms are something less than torture.

edit: clarity

What specific things do you personally consider torture?

What difference does it make what he considers torture? They are not using his definition but united states law:

And yes we do commit torture. Fortunately for us all this stuff is writen down so weasly government officials and torture advocates look like idiots triing to mince words. USC TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 113C > Sec. 2340. defines it as such:http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/2340.html


"'torture' means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control."

Among the various forms of "severe mental pain or sfufering", Congress specifically mentions "the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain and suffering," "the threat of imminent death" and "the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses and personality..."

You have reports from Abu Ghraib/gitmo of these very things; photographs of beatings, of simulated electrocution, chemical lights, rapes, riding old women like donkeys, and of threatened execution and even deaths in us custody. Torture.
 

Tommunist

Golden Member
Dec 1, 2004
1,544
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Originally posted by: Genx87
Splashing urine on a holy book is not torture.

Maybe some of these whiners need to go and visit the gulags and concentration camps in Russia and Eastern Europe and then come back and write about the gulag in Gitmo.

so anything less than WWII concentration camp conditions is okay?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Tommunist
Originally posted by: Genx87
Splashing urine on a holy book is not torture.

Maybe some of these whiners need to go and visit the gulags and concentration camps in Russia and Eastern Europe and then come back and write about the gulag in Gitmo.

so anything less than WWII concentration camp conditions is okay?

Did I say that?

Most of these horrible torture stories have been severly blown out of proportion.

Making people form a human pyramid is embrassing but on the same playing field as pulling out your toe-nails?

Dogs barking at you is now considered torture?

Stepping on a holy book is as bad as the gulags?

I think some of the people would be best to go and try to walk in the people who went through the gulags shoes and realize the difference. Right now it is quite disrespecting to the people who actually went through the gulags to associated the above with their ordeal imo.
 

Tommunist

Golden Member
Dec 1, 2004
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Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Tommunist
Originally posted by: Genx87
Splashing urine on a holy book is not torture.

Maybe some of these whiners need to go and visit the gulags and concentration camps in Russia and Eastern Europe and then come back and write about the gulag in Gitmo.

so anything less than WWII concentration camp conditions is okay?

Did I say that?

Most of these horrible torture stories have been severly blown out of proportion.

Making people form a human pyramid is embrassing but on the same playing field as pulling out your toe-nails?

Dogs barking at you is now considered torture?

Stepping on a holy book is as bad as the gulags?

I think some of the people would be best to go and try to walk in the people who went through the gulags shoes and realize the difference. Right now it is quite disrespecting to the people who actually went through the gulags to associated the above with their ordeal imo.

I certainly wouldn't argue that g'timo is as bad as a gulag - but some of the things that have gone on I'm sure count as torture. the things you are mentioning don't exactly fit the bill by my standards but are perhaps inappropriate treatment by a first world nation.

it's this kind of thinking where "oh well things were much worse here" that creates complacency. like if a woman gets hit by her husband once in a while she shouldn't complain b/c it could be a lot worse. the original intent of this thread seems horribly flawed.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
it's this kind of thinking where "oh well things were much worse here" that creates complacency. like if a woman gets hit by her husband once in a while she shouldn't complain b/c it could be a lot worse. the original intent of this thread seems horribly flawed.
And what's happening in Gitmo is egregious, but it's not very widespread, and it's definitely not up to par with what's happened in the past and continues to happen in some other nations. Not to say it should be left alone, but putting it in perspective is interesting.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Splashing urine on a holy book is not torture.

Maybe some of these whiners need to go and visit the gulags and concentration camps in Russia and Eastern Europe and then come back and write about the gulag in Gitmo.

please read the torture thread conjur has, alot of information there which you dont seem to know about
 

Tommunist

Golden Member
Dec 1, 2004
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Originally posted by: Skoorb
Not to say it should be left alone, but putting it in perspective is interesting.

what purpose does it serve to put it into perspective in this way? to make everyone feel not quite so bad about what's going on? and wouldn't this only serve to make the problem less likely to be fixed?
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Making people form a human pyramid is embrassing but on the same playing field as pulling out your toe-nails?

Dogs barking at you is now considered torture?

Yes I quote from USC TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 113C > Sec. 2340:


- severe mental pain or suffering

-the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain and suffering

-the threat of imminent death

Now tell how you'd get people, where touching another naked man is a sin, to make naked pyramid w/o the threat of immient death? You think they're just doing it for fun? or had some threats levied upon them?


As far as dog just barking at them, there was a clear threat of mualing present or why else would the agents/ M.P.s do it? dogs bark all day and it does'nt bother me but in this case they were using them to threaten "severe physical pain" or "death", thats the mental part of torture.


 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: Zebo
Making people form a human pyramid is embrassing but on the same playing field as pulling out your toe-nails?

Dogs barking at you is now considered torture?

Yes I quote from USC TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 113C > Sec. 2340:


- severe mental pain or suffering

-the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain and suffering

-the threat of imminent death

Now tell how you'd get people, where touching another naked man is a sin, to make naked pyramid w/o the threat of immient death? You think they're just doing it for fun? or had some threats levied upon them?


As far as dog just barking at them, there was a clear threat of mualing present or why else would the agents/ M.P.s do it? dogs bark all day and it does'nt bother me but in this case they were using them to threaten "severe physical pain" or "death", thats the mental part of torture.

along with the actual beatings and hanging people up by their wrists for days even
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
and torture is mental, the physical pain sometimes used is just one way to accomplish mental torture, there are countless of other ways
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Originally posted by: Tommunist
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Not to say it should be left alone, but putting it in perspective is interesting.

what purpose does it serve to put it into perspective in this way? to make everyone feel not quite so bad about what's going on? and wouldn't this only serve to make the problem less likely to be fixed?
Knowledge is power. Do with it what you will!
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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81
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: Tommunist
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Not to say it should be left alone, but putting it in perspective is interesting.

what purpose does it serve to put it into perspective in this way? to make everyone feel not quite so bad about what's going on? and wouldn't this only serve to make the problem less likely to be fixed?
Knowledge is power. Do with it what you will!

Id hardy call Knowledge garnered under threat of life "reliable".. I'll tell you who shot Jimmy Haffa if you torture me long enough that does'nt nessesarly make it so.

Meanwhile, with this shotty method of intell gathering instead of agents on the ground getting voluntary privy, you're defacing our name, punishing some innocents since it's been reported we release most victims w/o charge, and creating more enemies of the united states and it's citizens.

I've said it before, it's just a matter of time before a nuke is detonated in one of our cities, maybe more. Pakistan, a muslim country has nukes for goodness sakes!!! Not to mention all the clandestine moves in the works. Tons of U-235 are missing from Russia and other places. IMO we need to engage the 1.5 billion muslims that inhabit this planet a little more justly if we are to prevent apocalypse. This is not to say we should'nt go after the crimminal terrorists, but at least stick with normal conventions when doing so, and not convert the whole of the muslim world agaisnt us. There's a reason it's hard to find Zalarwi and Osama!
 

Tommunist

Golden Member
Dec 1, 2004
1,544
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0
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: Tommunist
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Not to say it should be left alone, but putting it in perspective is interesting.

what purpose does it serve to put it into perspective in this way? to make everyone feel not quite so bad about what's going on? and wouldn't this only serve to make the problem less likely to be fixed?
Knowledge is power. Do with it what you will!

Id hardy call Knowledge garnered under threat of life "reliable".. I'll tell you who shot Jimmy Haffa if you torture me long enough that does'nt nessesarly make it so.

Meanwhile, with this shotty method of intell gathering instead of agents on the ground getting voluntary privy, you're defacing our name, punishing some innocents since it's been reported we release most victims w/o charge, and creating more enemies of the united states and it's citizens.

I've said it before, it's just a matter of time before a nuke is detonated in one of our cities, maybe more. Pakistan, a muslim country has nukes for goodness sakes!!! Not to mention all the clandestine moves in the works. Tons of U-235 are missing from Russia and other places. IMO we need to engage the 1.5 billion muslims that inhabit this planet a little more justly if we are to prevent apocalypse. This is not to say we should'nt go after the crimminal terrorists, but at least stick with normal conventions when doing so, and not convert the whole of the muslim world agaisnt us. There's a reason it's hard to find Zalarwi and Osama!

i don't think he was saying the knowledge gained from torture is power - but rather the presentation of information in OP of this thread :p
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Oh well:p my point still stands. Torture is more about vengance than information gathering and is a piss poor way to do things.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Tommunist
Originally posted by: Genx87
Splashing urine on a holy book is not torture.

Maybe some of these whiners need to go and visit the gulags and concentration camps in Russia and Eastern Europe and then come back and write about the gulag in Gitmo.

so anything less than WWII concentration camp conditions is okay?

Did I say that?

Most of these horrible torture stories have been severly blown out of proportion.

And how the hell would any of us know this without acutally being there?
 

Kenazo

Lifer
Sep 15, 2000
10,429
1
81
my family fled the Soviet Union in the early 1920's. It was rough stuff there. Bolshevik communists were some of the worst people of all time.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Ok, to all the pro-Gitmo folks, doesn't it seem plausable to you that there are degrees of torture, none of them acceptable? Our sense of right and wrong isn't (I hope) based on some relative scale where once something is a certain amount "better" than another thing, the lesser offense is ok. Killing one person isn't as bad as what the terrorists did on 9/11, but it is still wrong. Which is essentially the argument presented by the OP. It's not that what's going on at Gitmo is ok by itself, it's that we could be torturing them a lot more than we are, so what we are doing is ok by comparison.

I don't know about the rest of you, but my sense of right and wrong doesn't work like that. I think some of what is going on at Gitmo is wrong, and I think what the Soviets did was worse. That doesn't make our actions at Gitmo ok. I find myself repeating this a lot, but the world is not just black and white. I truly don't understand the mindset that can make the argument presented by the OP.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Tommunist
Originally posted by: Genx87
Splashing urine on a holy book is not torture.

Maybe some of these whiners need to go and visit the gulags and concentration camps in Russia and Eastern Europe and then come back and write about the gulag in Gitmo.

so anything less than WWII concentration camp conditions is okay?

Did I say that?

Most of these horrible torture stories have been severly blown out of proportion.

Making people form a human pyramid is embrassing but on the same playing field as pulling out your toe-nails?

Dogs barking at you is now considered torture?

Stepping on a holy book is as bad as the gulags?

I think some of the people would be best to go and try to walk in the people who went through the gulags shoes and realize the difference. Right now it is quite disrespecting to the people who actually went through the gulags to associated the above with their ordeal imo.

I forget the name of this kind of argument, but it's actually a logical fallacy. You ARE making an argument that since Gitmo isn't as bad a the gulags, it's ok. Nobody is actually comparing the two except you, there are degrees of torture and degrees of unacceptable behavior. I have heard no one say that Gitmo is as bad as the gulags, but what you're saying is that we shouldn't care about Gitmo since it's not as bad as the gulags. If that's not what you are saying, enlighten me. Because all I see is you making light of the Gitmo stuff because the gulags were worse.