Ready for a big upgrade: Q6600, Q9300, or Q9450?

[archcommus]

Hi all. I'm finally ready for a massive upgrade to replace this Athlon 64/1 GB memory/X800 XL video card setup that I've had for almost 3 years now. I keep up with hardware news, but not to the extent to know exactly which parts to buy, so I come to you.

Basically I'm looking for a very big upgrade that will hold me over at least another 3 years or so, so I'd like to do quad core and 4 GB of memory, no doubt about that. Also a decent video card in the $250-$300 range. My big question is, do I get the Q6600 for cheap and OC it, get a Q9300 and take advantage of any 45nm benefits, or do I pay the premium for a Q9450 and get the benefits of 45nm and more cache? I have no idea what is the best for now, and my budget, and the future (again about 3 years), those are the big things. Also a consideration in this purchase is what CPU will be the easiest to match up with a good motherboard and memory, because I'd like to get value memory (maybe about $150 for 4 GB, DDR2) and a relatively mainstream motherboard/chipset (no more than $100-$120). I would like to keep my current 400 W PSU if at all possible, so if a 45nm would allow for that but a 65nm would not, that is also a big factor.

So considering everything above what CPU would you recommend? (And feel free to make a motherboard and memory recommendation as well.) I plan to do this upgrade before June, so use that time frame in your pricing estimations.

Thanks!

 

[Martimus]

This may help you budget your build.

I wouldn't suggest keeping a 3 year old 400W PSU for a Quad core and upper level GPU, because those older model PSU's were light on the +12V rails, and heavy on the 3.3V and 5V rails. I suggest getting a quality 500W or higher PSU so that even if the caps leak a little by the end of life it will still work for you without killing your components. Corsair or PC Power and Cooling are generally considered the best affordable PSU's. There is some good discussion over on the PSU forum that should help you figure out what you need in that department.

 

[Jax Omen]

you can get good DDR2 800 memory in a 2x2GB configuration for $60, no need to spend $150

I'd recommend a P35-based motherboard. there's the abit one in the motherboards forum that seems very popular. They should be around $100 for a good one.

I'd wait until april 20th for the CPU price drops and pick up a Q6600, if you don't mind overclocking. I'm pretty sure almost everyone can hit 3GHZ on it, and that'd be about as future-proof-for-the-money as I'd ever justify getting. Don't forget a better cooler.

As for the PSU, you'd probably be fine as long as you're not running a monstrous video card, but I'd still recommend picking up a new one, especially if your PSU is a no-name from an OEM. You can get an Earthwatts 430W for ~$50 at newegg right now, or the 500W for ~80. Don't ever skimp on a PSU, it's better to overspend than to underpower your rig.

If your monitor supports 16x10 resolution or so, get a 9600GT. ~$130 after rebate for a very powerful card at that resolution. If you're at a higher resolution, go for the 8800GT/GTS, depending on how much you wanna spend (the GTS is approximately 10% faster for about $30 more).

 

[archcommus]

Originally posted by: Martimus
This may help you budget your build.

I wouldn't suggest keeping a 3 year old 400W PSU for a Quad core and upper level GPU, because those older model PSU's were light on the +12V rails, and heavy on the 3.3V and 5V rails. I suggest getting a quality 500W or higher PSU so that even if the caps leak a little by the end of life it will still work for you without killing your components. Corsair or PC Power and Cooling are generally considered the best affordable PSU's. There is some good discussion over on the PSU forum that should help you figure out what you need in that department.

Thanks for the link! My specific PSU is an Antec SmartPower ATX12V v2.0 SP-400 400W, so it's actually not 3 years old. My last PSU was even before the Athlon 64 build, but it had some fan issues in summer of 2006 so I got it replaced under warranty and received this one. Is this model good enough for this new system?

Originally posted by: Jax Omen
you can get good DDR2 800 memory in a 2x2GB configuration for $60, no need to spend $150

I'd recommend a P35-based motherboard. there's the abit one in the motherboards forum that seems very popular. They should be around $100 for a good one.

I'd wait until april 20th for the CPU price drops and pick up a Q6600, if you don't mind overclocking. I'm pretty sure almost everyone can hit 3GHZ on it, and that'd be about as future-proof-for-the-money as I'd ever justify getting. Don't forget a better cooler.

As for the PSU, you'd probably be fine as long as you're not running a monstrous video card, but I'd still recommend picking up a new one, especially if your PSU is a no-name from an OEM. You can get an Earthwatts 430W for ~$50 at newegg right now, or the 500W for ~80. Don't ever skimp on a PSU, it's better to overspend than to underpower your rig.

If your monitor supports 16x10 resolution or so, get a 9600GT. ~$130 after rebate for a very powerful card at that resolution. If you're at a higher resolution, go for the 8800GT/GTS, depending on how much you wanna spend (the GTS is approximately 10% faster for about $30 more).

$60 for 4 GB? Wow, I'm out of the loop. That sounds great! How "value" of a brand is that? I will look into that motherboard. So you're certain 45nm would not offer any benefits that are worth spending the money on right now? I'm also curious about what kind of cooler I would need and what steps would be involved in OCing (just increasing the FSB?), as I am typically not an OCer. I am shooting for a quiet system as well.

My monitor is a 19" 1280x1024, but I'd like a video card powerful enough that could handle 1680x1050 in the future.

 

[Jax Omen]

I *think* that PSU would be adequate, but again, my philosophy is to go overboard on the PSU >_>

That's practically any decent brand. look on newegg. $60-$70 or so. It's only $150 if you buy RAM at BestBuy or Circuit City.

45nm only matters if you run programs that make use of SSE4.1. Other than that it's SLIGHTLY faster clock-for-clock, but not enough to justify the price difference.

at 1280x1024, definitely go with a 9600GT. It's powerful enough for 1680x1050 in almost any current game (read: not Crysis) at near-max settings, if not max. At your current res, it'll probably even drive Crysis pretty darn well.

 

[Winterpool]

I assembled my new Core 2 Duo system this past weekend and came from an even more obsolescent system than yours -- indeed, mine was in fact becoming obsolete. I couldn't run a great deal of video content, and all the Flash on the Web was beginning to crash my computer at least once a week (I hate Flash for other reasons as well, but that's another story). I couldn't wait any longer.

Like you I wanted my system to last a little while, and I also wanted to feel a little bit 'leading edge' so I plumped for a Wolfdale processor, though in reality a Q6600 would likely have better served my present and future needs. You haven't indicated what sort of applications concern you the most (though I presume you game given your video card budget), but the consensus amongst enthusiasts is that quadcore offers better 'futureproofing' under the assumption that there will be more software in the future capable of using >2 cores.

If you're going quadcore, I must second the rest of the punters here and suggest you get a new power supply. SmartPower became increasingly unreliable over time (which is probably why the brand has been retired), though I've never had real difficulties with any of my Antec SPs (my Athlon still runs on a 400-watt SmartPower). But quadcore overclocking can get fairly power-hungry. Perhaps more important, there have been significant increases in power efficiency amongst the better PSUs, for example even Antec Neo HEs tend to rival the 80+ efficiency of their EarthWatts. And this efficiency persists even at relatively low power levels (which is where my computer tends to linger 90 per cent of the time). So you won't be wasting proportionately more electricity just because you're using only, say, 50 per cent of your PSU's capacity. So there's a lot to gain by buying a newer power supply with room to grow.

P35 boards are inexpensive at present, and two sub-$100 boards in particularly (the Abit IP35-E and Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3L) are extremely popular amongst thrifty enthusiasts. They'll certainly run Wolfdales and the Q6600, but I've not seen too much data on how they're faring with the Yorkfields.

And, yes, DDR2 memory too is at the low end of a price cycle. I regret not buying 4 GB (2 x 2) myself, though I'm pretty strapped for $ at present. To give one example, you can buy 4 GB of Corsair 'XMS2' PC2 6400 for $110 - 40 rebate = $70.

 

[Martimus]

Originally posted by: archcommus

Originally posted by: Martimus
This may help you budget your build.

I wouldn't suggest keeping a 3 year old 400W PSU for a Quad core and upper level GPU, because those older model PSU's were light on the +12V rails, and heavy on the 3.3V and 5V rails. I suggest getting a quality 500W or higher PSU so that even if the caps leak a little by the end of life it will still work for you without killing your components. Corsair or PC Power and Cooling are generally considered the best affordable PSU's. There is some good discussion over on the PSU forum that should help you figure out what you need in that department.

Thanks for the link! My specific PSU is an Antec SmartPower ATX12V v2.0 SP-400 400W, so it's actually not 3 years old. My last PSU was even before the Athlon 64 build, but it had some fan issues in summer of 2006 so I got it replaced under warranty and received this one. Is this model good enough for this new system?

Actually the older Antecs had bad Caps in them, which had a tendency to blow (I had one blow up on me, and it took out nearly my whole system) Of the two Antec PSU's I have owned, one blew up (It was an Antec TruPower) and one had a primary Cap leak (Antec NeoPower). Supposedly the quality of components that Antec uses is much better now, but I still wouldn't trust that PSU with any power hungry components (like the GPU and quadcore that you want) If it goes, it will likely damage the CPU, MB, and GPU; which will put you back quite a bit.

 

[v8envy]

3 years is a bit much to hope for from a mainstream rig. I'd go with a Gigabyte DS3L ($90) or Abit P35-E ($65 AR), E21XX cpu ($70), 9600GT or 8800GT ($150 AR) 4 gigs of cheapie ram ($50ish) for a total of about $400 and steel yourself for needing to upgrade 1-2 years from now with the other $400. Put the rest of the upgarde budget into an envelope and hide it -- upgrading for the future IN the future will buy you a lot more. Yes, you're skimping now -- but you can get a much faster machine with the leftover budget a year+ from now than you'd buy splurging.

Oh, and cheap ram is $12 AR for 4 gigs. $30/2 gigs is AR pricing on the good stuff.

 

[chin311]

i just placed a similar order from newegg yesterday, much in your position i was running an athlonx2 4200+, 1gb pc3200, 250gb system which i sold and upgraded, i ended up going the WOLFDALE route because i can't utilize quad core, i mostly just use internet and light gaming so the E8400 was what i ended up with. heres what i ordered:


SAMSUNG 20X DVD±R DVD Burner with LightScribe Black SATA Model SH-S203N - OEM
Item #: N82E16827151154

Standard Return Policy
$33.99


Transcend 4GB(2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model JM4GDDR2-8K - Retail
Item #: N82E16820208353


$66.99


LINKSYS WMP54G 32bit PCI2.2 Wireless-G Adapter - Retail
Item #: N82E16833124115

Limited 30-Day Return Policy

$39.99


Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 ST3500320AS 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s 32mb Hard Drive - OEM
Item #: N82E16822148288

$109.99


EVGA 256-P2-N751-TR GeForce 8600GT 256MB 128-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 SLI Supported Video Card - Retail
Item #: N82E16814130085

Limited Non-Refundable 30-Day Return Policy

$89.99


GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3L LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX All Solid Capacitor Intel Motherboard - Retail
Item #: N82E16813128059

Limited 30-Day Return Policy

$89.99


Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor Model BX80570E8400 - Retail
Item #: N82E16819115037

$209.99

Thermaltake TR2 W0070RUC ATX 430W Power Supply - Retail
Item #: N82E16817153023

$43.99

 

[bryanW1995]

Originally posted by: Jax Omen
I *think* that PSU would be adequate, but again, my philosophy is to go overboard on the PSU >_>

That's practically any decent brand. look on newegg. $60-$70 or so. It's only $150 if you buy RAM at BestBuy or Circuit City.

45nm only matters if you run programs that make use of SSE4.1. Other than that it's SLIGHTLY faster clock-for-clock, but not enough to justify the price difference.

at 1280x1024, definitely go with a 9600GT. It's powerful enough for 1680x1050 in almost any current game (read: not Crysis) at near-max settings, if not max. At your current res, it'll probably even drive Crysis pretty darn well.

I personally just upgraded two computers. One was an e6750 rig in an ip35 board, went to an X3350. The other was an opteron 180, went to an ip35e and a Q9450. Everyone here seems to be on the Q6600 bandwagon, but my temps are much better than anyone I know of at 3.6 on a Q6600, and my oc was extremely easy to boot. You'll need 4-4-4-12 pc6400 or maybe even pc8500 ram, but again that stuff is incredibly cheap these days. I just got a 2x1gb set of dominators for $39 AR at newegg, and they had xms2 and several other quality brands for less than $30 AR. I haven't installed the Q9450 in the ip35e, but I can say for sure that the ip35pro is a badass overclocker for quads. They periodically have sales on them at newegg, at last check it was $99 AR!! I would definitely have sprung for the extra $28 if I had just waited...:frown:

 

[Jax Omen]

Oh, I'm sure your temps are better, but a Q9450 costs ~$150+ more than the Q6600, does it not? the Q6600 offers similar performance for way less money.

 

[Markfw]

I wasn't impressed with my X3350 (Q9450). It was pretty hard compared to a Q6600.

 

[Jax Omen]

Yes. To Markfw you listen.

/Yodamode

 

[archcommus]

Thank you Winterpool for all the valuable input. Yeah, I like the idea of having a cooler, lower power 45nm chip, but I can't say the price difference is worth it. I typically purchase CPUs in the low $200 range, for example the Athlon 64 3200+ I have now cost me about $200 exactly, and even that was plenty powerful for at least 2 years before I started to feel its age (at the time just with games, really started to feel its age with all things with the move to Vista). A 9300 is lacking cache compared to alternatives, and a 9450 is pushing upper $300's. But I cannot say for sure I would overclock a 6600. I know it's easy, but I don't like to OC. I prefer retail, stock coolers, stability, and preserving warranties. So I'm not certain on that. But right now a 6600, one of the mentioned motherboards, and some value 4 GB kit is sounding good. A new PSU could be good, especially if it's more efficient and has enough power for later down the road, but the cost would have to be right to fit into my budget. How cheaply could I get a quality 500+ W PSU?

 

[Jax Omen]

Earthwatts are high-quality and a 500W is <$100 on newegg.

I'm getting a 430W for Kitty for $50.

 

[Markfw]

Personally, I liked this one
Its $75 AR for 600 watt 80 % plus certified.

 

[bryanW1995]

Originally posted by: Markfw900
I wasn't impressed with my X3350 (Q9450). It was pretty hard compared to a Q6600.

I'll get a better handle on this when I get my 9450 up and running, but I cannot stress enough how much lower my temps are with this 9450 than what people have reported on their Q6600's. I personally think that if you can get in on a deal like the $299 for a 9450 at microcenter and you're doing a completely new build (as in buying a new mobo and ram) then the 9450 is the way to go. You can get 4-4-4-12 pc 6400 for $29 AR at newegg and an ip35 pro for $99, so overclocking to 450+ fsb shouldn't be much of a challenge for most users.

 

[Jax Omen]

Bryan, my point was more that sure, you're getting lower temps on a 45nm part. Is it any faster?

Essentially, so far you're stating that you think it's worth $100 to you for lower temps and NO benefit. Pretty sure even the hardcore watercooling crowd mostly spends their hundreds of dollars on cooling *to get a bit more performance*, not just for lower temps.

If you can't get better performance than the Q6600, it's a waste of $100+ to get a Q9450, regardless of the temperature improvement.

 

[Markfw]

Originally posted by: bryanW1995

Originally posted by: Markfw900
I wasn't impressed with my X3350 (Q9450). It was pretty hard compared to a Q6600.

I'll get a better handle on this when I get my 9450 up and running, but I cannot stress enough how much lower my temps are with this 9450 than what people have reported on their Q6600's. I personally think that if you can get in on a deal like the $299 for a 9450 at microcenter and you're doing a completely new build (as in buying a new mobo and ram) then the 9450 is the way to go. You can get 4-4-4-12 pc 6400 for $29 AR at newegg and an ip35 pro for $99, so overclocking to 450+ fsb shouldn't be much of a challenge for most users.

I have 4 Q6600 G0's (not to mention the 2 B3's) and after the overclocking is done, my X3350 is barely faster than any of my Q6600;s, and requires almost the same vcore to get there, and is actually hotter than all of my G0's, but less than my B3's. Maybe I got a bad chip, but those are my experiences.....

 

[Denithor]

I will second the concept of mid-range upgrade now and another mid-range upgrade in another 1.5 years.

For one very good reason.

Nehalem.

Buy what you need today, unless you need quad-core it's a waste of money now and over time (higher energy consumption will set you back ~$5/month versus a comparable dual-core). Just get a nice dual core, overclock it, and be very happy with its performance for the next year or so. Then upgrade the whole thing to Nehalem (which will require a new motherboard/cpu/DDR3/etc) and should bring with it a whole new level of performance. Plus, by the time you are ready to upgrade the price gouging for Nehalem will be over and you will be able to get a good system for a fair price.

My recommendations:
e8400 (2x3GHz, 6MB cache) $216
Gigabyte P35-DS3L $89
Mushkin 2x2GB DDR2-800 (5-4-4-12 @ 1.8V) $55 after MIR (ends tomorrow)

Either EVGA 8800GS ($110 after MIR) or 8800GTS (G92 512MB version for $230 after MIR). Don't bother spending more than that on video cards as the next gen is expected to be much faster and due out within the next several months.

 

[bryanW1995]

mark I am highly confident that realtemp has the correct tjunction for the 45nm quads. assuming that is correct, you are running a lot cooler with that cpu. add in sse4and the five percent or so spaaed bump plus the couple bucks per month power savings and you still come out ahead.

 

[archcommus]

Well, we currently have: do a small upgrade to dual core now and another small upgrade later, upgrade to Q6600 because it's the best value for the price, and upgrade to Q9450 because of speed, temp, and power benefits, all pending options. I'm really not sure what to think is best right now.

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
mark I am highly confident that realtemp has the correct tjunction for the 45nm quads. assuming that is correct, you are running a lot cooler with that cpu. add in sse4and the five percent or so spaaed bump plus the couple bucks per month power savings and you still come out ahead.

at this point i have no idea whats correct and whats not.

why cuz real temp says 2 of my cores are eatting heat, meaning there lower then ambient. lol.

Core temp at least shows my cores above ambient but thats cuz of a +10 advantage.

Coretemp changes my VID when it feels like it, i have no idea why, im really linking it to the multi.

Realtemp everyone keeps saying is accurate, but why is it 10 off from coretemp?


Anyhow the safe overclocker say we go with the higher reading.
The Enthusiest overclocker says go with whomever says is more accurate.

Aigo says, i have no clue which is really correct so im going by my probes.
<which i know are correct cuz my coolant is anyhwere between 1-3C depending on load ABOVE my rad air intake like it should be>

 

[archcommus]

Any more comments? I don't really like the idea of doing a dual core upgrade now, just because dual cores are so old and I'd like a little more cutting edge after having this system for 3 years. I also know I won't be in the mood for another upgrade in only a year and a half's time. I'm still not certain if the Q9450 is worth the price premium, but considering I'd probably have to pay at least $150 more for it than the Q6600 within the next month, right now I'm leaning towards the Q6600. Then either the Gigabyte or Abit board most likely, a cheap 4 GB memory kit, some $250-ish NVIDIA video card, and a new PSU, still not sure which. I would like more PSU recommendations since I know nothing about them. I want QUIET, at least 500 W, efficient, and good for any semi-high end video card I throw at it (not going to be doing ultra high end or SLI or anything).

 

[v8envy]

Then go ahead with the 65nm quad, but be prepared for it lasting you the exact same period (or less) than an E8400 (or even E2XXX). My point is: splurging does not guarantee you'll be able to run the latest games 2 years from now when a value CPU could be as much as 2-4x faster, mainstream GPU could be 2-4x faster, and games makers are targeting that market. Futureproofing by spending extra right now is a very bad gamble. In a month or so the E7300 should be out -- a value priced CPU which once overclocked should spank the pants off anything < $1000 in gaming. A year from now? I expect 50% faster again, for the same price.

CPU performance had more or less stagnated from 2003 until 2006. Most games until Oblivion or so were not held back by CPU power. Things have changed over the last year and look to change again in the next 6-12. We are on the verge of significant performance boosts in both GPUs and CPUs. Buying mainstream or upper mainstream today is not guaranteed to buy you 6 more months let alone 1.5 extra years over an extreme value system.

Oh, I have the EarthWatts 500 PSU. It a decent, heavy unit. Efficient and quiet at idle. Gets a bit noisier at load. Should be good for a mild overclock and any single GPU.