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Reach out to the Taliban': British defence secretary

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event8horizon

Senior member
Nov 15, 2007
674
0
0
Originally posted by: crisscross
So.. the Taliban destroyed buddhist statues, pretty much thinks women are inferior to men in every possible way and denies them medical care, education and jobs. Allows a plane hijacking (IC-814) by terrorists. But yes we should definitely talk to them they are definitely extremely sane and rational people.
do u see a familiar name in that list.

As a result the government accepted [2] the demand to release the following terrorists in exchange for the release of the passengers and crew of flight IC 814.

Maulana Masood Azhar
Mushtaq Ahmed Zargar
Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh

they got the mi6 agent out who also sent atta the 100,000 for the 911 hijackings.

 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Lemon law
The delusion present in this thread is that there is some concrete definition of good and evil and that concrete definition can be defined as a single variable. But the palehorse delusion is that he is that GOD appointed arbiter, who can go into another society, and unerringly distinguish the people who are 100% evil and leave unscathed the people who are 100% good. Perhaps because the taliban wear black hats that say T and Al-Quida wears black hats saying AQ.

And that somehow both Al-Quida and the Taliban are simply people who were born conceived in sin. Predestined to be tainted by bad ideas and incapable of ever learning better. And they started out by picking the wings of flies, and went on to band together with a goal of tearing down society because they just hate everyone. And in a sense, one can always find a few such examples. And if we listed to the British in 1776, our George Washington was one such person along with Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, and the rest of those rabble rousers. And since they could not be persuaded, they had to be hunted down and killed.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, AQ and the taliban think they are the good guys and they are saving their world from the bad guys in GWB, Palehorse, and the rest of the evil Western imperialists. And at least in the case of the taliban, they are also saving their world from their own home grown thugs who set up their own private fiefdoms. And to do so, they must embrace their romantic old way of life that never really was before the Western imperialists came. With the rather draconian measure of disenfranchising 50% of their population, namely all females, in the process. Normally such religious states have limited shelf lives, the people rebel when these leaders themselves become decadent. But in the grand scheme of things, at least the taliban did break the power of the war lords that were holding Afghanistan in state of near perpetual anarchy that the petty squabble of the US and the Soviet Union helped create. And on the good side of the ledger, Afghanistan was finally moving towards a state of nationhood where trade and commerce was becoming possible because goods could be transported because thievery was now stopped. And left alone, Afghanistan would have started resembling much of Pakistan which was embracing modernity and the benefits it brings.

As we all know, AL-Quida and not the taliban attacked us, and now we are in this big snit. And we can't see that things are multi dimensional, and are reduced to the same romantic failings the taliban has about preserving a way of life that never was. We see nothing but evil in them and they see nothing but evil in us.

I can't per say disagree with palehorse that the taliban represents the wrong road for both Afghanistan and Pakistan, I am simply saying we have to show them rather than force them. And because we have built nothing in Iraq and Afghanistan, we have nothing to show.
Do you believe that child rapists and mass murderers, found anywhere, can be rehabilitated? yes/no
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
2
0
The palehorse74 delusion is that he can frame the question this way---Do you believe that child rapists and mass murderers, found anywhere, can be rehabilitated? yes/no

And it carries an implication that is the sole motivators of Al-Quida or the taliban.

Maybe the right way to ask the question is to look at Vietnam. A country we helped to divide into two parts and a country that had cycled from being occupied to regaining freedom countless times in its long history. And the USA just became the next lucky country to join a long list of occupiers who had to be given the ole heave ho by the Vietnamese
people.

Morality wise and given what they could offer for the future, North Vietnam and the Viet Cong were your generic equivalents of rapists and mass murders. And with some exceptions, the USA was the good guys. But because a unified
Vietnam trumped all other considerations, we were supporting a divided Vietnam and opposed an overwhelming powerful Vietnamese historical force. And simple as that, therefore we lost.

The real question may be what would have happened if we had been smarter? And sided for a Vietnamese reunification
more favorable to us? Then we may not have lost.

Just a little reminder to you palehorse74, you are the stranger in a strange land, and you will get nothing done by simplistic violence or just trying to just impose your values on people who regard you are the generic equivalent of child rapists and mass murders. And as we can see from the results on the ground, most of the Afghan people are deciding the taliban are preferable to the likes of you.

If you want to wring the admission out of me that the taliban has some people that are rehabilitable child rapists and mass murders, I will cheerfully agree, but when you are viewed by many in AFGHANISTAN in exactly that same light, IT SHOULD BE A WAKE UP CALL TO YOU THAT YOU SHOULD BE OPEN TO SOME SELF EXAMINATION OF OTHER METRICS THAT DRIVE THE CONFLICT AND DEFINE WINNING vs. LOSING.

Palehorse74, we have been having what amounts to a non productive argument over exactly these same points for years now. And never in the world history of palehorse have we seen any answer from him that does not involve an extermination single variable metric. And here we are two years later having another non productive argument, and meanwhile you have not made an inch of progress. And after two damn years of making no progress, it has not dawned on you that you need some better strategy????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,522
4,198
126
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: Lemon law
The delusion present in this thread is that there is some concrete definition of good and evil and that concrete definition can be defined as a single variable. But the palehorse delusion is that he is that GOD appointed arbiter, who can go into another society, and unerringly distinguish the people who are 100% evil and leave unscathed the people who are 100% good. Perhaps because the taliban wear black hats that say T and Al-Quida wears black hats saying AQ.

And that somehow both Al-Quida and the Taliban are simply people who were born conceived in sin. Predestined to be tainted by bad ideas and incapable of ever learning better. And they started out by picking the wings of flies, and went on to band together with a goal of tearing down society because they just hate everyone. And in a sense, one can always find a few such examples. And if we listed to the British in 1776, our George Washington was one such person along with Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, and the rest of those rabble rousers. And since they could not be persuaded, they had to be hunted down and killed.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, AQ and the taliban think they are the good guys and they are saving their world from the bad guys in GWB, Palehorse, and the rest of the evil Western imperialists. And at least in the case of the taliban, they are also saving their world from their own home grown thugs who set up their own private fiefdoms. And to do so, they must embrace their romantic old way of life that never really was before the Western imperialists came. With the rather draconian measure of disenfranchising 50% of their population, namely all females, in the process. Normally such religious states have limited shelf lives, the people rebel when these leaders themselves become decadent. But in the grand scheme of things, at least the taliban did break the power of the war lords that were holding Afghanistan in state of near perpetual anarchy that the petty squabble of the US and the Soviet Union helped create. And on the good side of the ledger, Afghanistan was finally moving towards a state of nationhood where trade and commerce was becoming possible because goods could be transported because thievery was now stopped. And left alone, Afghanistan would have started resembling much of Pakistan which was embracing modernity and the benefits it brings.

As we all know, AL-Quida and not the taliban attacked us, and now we are in this big snit. And we can't see that things are multi dimensional, and are reduced to the same romantic failings the taliban has about preserving a way of life that never was. We see nothing but evil in them and they see nothing but evil in us.

I can't per say disagree with palehorse that the taliban represents the wrong road for both Afghanistan and Pakistan, I am simply saying we have to show them rather than force them. And because we have built nothing in Iraq and Afghanistan, we have nothing to show.
Do you believe that child rapists and mass murderers, found anywhere, can be rehabilitated? yes/no
You are in the grip of a delusion that makes perfect sense to you. You are in the same boat as Hitler, you are certain. Child rapists and mass murderers are bad and therefore everything you think is justified in your mind, just as if Jews were bad. Of course, mass murderers and child rapists do happen to be bad so your delusion is somewhat harder to treat, but then it would not have been possible to convince Hitler otherwise either. The point is not that you are wrong, but what you justify out of your belief, the notion that because something is bad it must be destroyed by any means possible. That is not the case, nor is any hate of the bad required.

Murders and rapists are sick, possibly genetically defective in the area of empathy, or made mentally ill by childhood experiences and a fixation on a need to get even. You yourself only contaminate your self when you hate them. What needs to happen is that they be stopped from harming others. That can be done with calm cool deliberation and iron will. No hate, rage, fanatical raving is required or needed or desirable. It clouds the mind.

You, with your certain hate, become a danger to all human kind. You become fanatical. You lack judgment and you lack compassion. You will never be in any position to judge whether the enemy can be redeemed. I am not saying all our enemies can be brought back to the light, but that you mentality will insure that none ever are because you are a fanatic and dangerous to reason. You are sure that none can be saved and so you will kill all regardless of what could be. You are blinded by your hate.

The rule is that you destroy evil mercilessly and without compromise up to the point where evil begs for mercy and vows to repent. They you have to switch on a dime and love. You need to be totally emotionally free and uninvolved. You have to be free of your own self hate to see the truth of the other. Only if you are mentally well will you see it in the other.

When you say the other can't change you say that about yourself. Is it likely you will change? No wonder you're suspicious, eh?
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
2
0
Originally posted by: crisscross
Hey TGB no response to my post?
Has it ever occurred to you crisscross, that your post is based on a stupid premise and therefore deserves no response.

1. Unless you can prove that TGB is part of the hijackers and that he caused this supposed sin, he is somehow compelled to admit his country has been wrong. And horribly shamed when he agrees.

2. And since Pakistan is not 100% good, therefore the USA is 100% good and have committed no sins in the entire history of the world.

Get a clue crisscross, trading accusations only leads to no where metrics where two wrongs don't make a right but maybe some unknown number of wrongs against some known number of wrongs might make somehow make a right?

If you want to know my frank assessments.

a. It was in the national interests of Pakistan to have the Afghani people under the fanatical rule of the taliban. And other wise the Pakistanis cared little for the Afghan people.

b. Reagan used the Afghan rebellion against the soviets to tweak the nose of the Russian bear. And other wise did not give a damn about the Afghani people. Thereby motivating above metric (a) because an Afghanistan in anarchy was not in the Pakistani interests.

Both statements are basically true IMHO. Which is more evil? I will let history judge.

Some where lost in all this, is some wise well thought out foreign policy that does not result in one stupidity causing another and another and another.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Lemon law
The palehorse74 delusion is that he can frame the question this way---Do you believe that child rapists and mass murderers, found anywhere, can be rehabilitated? yes/no

And it carries an implication that is the sole motivators of Al-Quida or the taliban.

Maybe the right way to ask the question is to look at Vietnam. A country we helped to divide into two parts and a country that had cycled from being occupied to regaining freedom countless times in its long history. And the USA just became the next lucky country to join a long list of occupiers who had to be given the ole heave ho by the Vietnamese
people.

Morality wise and given what they could offer for the future, North Vietnam and the Viet Cong were your generic equivalents of rapists and mass murders. And with some exceptions, the USA was the good guys. But because a unified
Vietnam trumped all other considerations, we were supporting a divided Vietnam and opposed an overwhelming powerful Vietnamese historical force. And simple as that, therefore we lost.

The real question may be what would have happened if we had been smarter? And sided for a Vietnamese reunification
more favorable to us? Then we may not have lost.

Just a little reminder to you palehorse74, you are the stranger in a strange land, and you will get nothing done by simplistic violence or just trying to just impose your values on people who regard you are the generic equivalent of child rapists and mass murders. And as we can see from the results on the ground, most of the Afghan people are deciding the taliban are preferable to the likes of you.

If you want to wring the admission out of me that the taliban has some people that are rehabilitable child rapists and mass murders, I will cheerfully agree, but when you are viewed by many in AFGHANISTAN in exactly that same light, IT SHOULD BE A WAKE UP CALL TO YOU THAT YOU SHOULD BE OPEN TO SOME SELF EXAMINATION OF OTHER METRICS THAT DRIVE THE CONFLICT AND DEFINE WINNING vs. LOSING.

Palehorse74, we have been having what amounts to a non productive argument over exactly these same points for years now. And never in the world history of palehorse have we seen any answer from him that does not involve an extermination single variable metric. And here we are two years later having another non productive argument, and meanwhile you have not made an inch of progress. And after two damn years of making no progress, it has not dawned on you that you need some better strategy????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
I was not using the terms "murderer" and "rapist" figuratively. Each and every member of the Taliban whom I have had the displeasure of meeting (100+) was quite literally a rapist and/or a mass murderer -- with no exceptions!

As usual, you avoided answering direct questions, and rambled on with some incoherent nonsense about Vietnam -- once again proving your complete lack of knowledge on all things Afghanistan.

GG.
 

daniel49

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2005
4,814
0
71
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Originally posted by: crisscross
Hey TGB no response to my post?
Has it ever occurred to you crisscross, that your post is based on a stupid premise and therefore deserves no response.

1. Unless you can prove that TGB is part of the hijackers and that he caused this supposed sin, he is somehow compelled to admit his country has been wrong. And horribly shamed when he agrees.

2. And since Pakistan is not 100% good, therefore the USA is 100% good and have committed no sins in the entire history of the world.

Get a clue crisscross, trading accusations only leads to no where metrics where two wrongs don't make a right but maybe some unknown number of wrongs against some known number of wrongs might make somehow make a right?

If you want to know my frank assessments.

a. It was in the national interests of Pakistan to have the Afghani people under the fanatical rule of the taliban. And other wise the Pakistanis cared little for the Afghan people.

b. Reagan used the Afghan rebellion against the soviets to tweak the nose of the Russian bear. And other wise did not give a damn about the Afghani people. Thereby motivating above metric (a) because an Afghanistan in anarchy was not in the Pakistani interests.

Both statements are basically true IMHO. Which is more evil? I will let history judge.

Some where lost in all this, is some wise well thought out foreign policy that does not result in one stupidity causing another and another and another.
Has it occured to you that maybe TGB missed his question as he didn't respond to mine either. that usually happens when people don't read the entire thread.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
2
0
And now the daniel149 contention is----Has it occured to you that maybe TGB missed his question as he didn't respond to mine either. that usually happens when people don't read the entire thread.

As if TGB perfectly represents all the many million of Pakistanis. And all of them first consult TGB before they do anything.

Get a damn clue, TGB is just one person with one viewpoint, and he has some value because we have many posting from the US and very few "civilians" posting from either Pakistan or Afghanistan or India.

The other point to make is that the "Pakistani Government" is hardly a homogeneous command and control single mind.
With many in the ISA secretly opposing Musharraf and up to all kinds of mischief. To expect TGB to know about all these palace intrigues is a dubious assumption at best when its quite clear Musharraf himself does not know the half of it either. The USA is deeply divided and so is Pakistan. At least Pakistan is better able to keep its kooks better boxed in.
 

daniel49

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2005
4,814
0
71
Originally posted by: Lemon law
And now the daniel149 contention is----Has it occured to you that maybe TGB missed his question as he didn't respond to mine either. that usually happens when people don't read the entire thread.

As if TGB perfectly represents all the many million of Pakistanis. And all of them first consult TGB before they do anything.

Get a damn clue, TGB is just one person with one viewpoint, and he has some value because we have many posting from the US and very few "civilians" posting from either Pakistan or Afghanistan or India.

The other point to make is that the "Pakistani Government" is hardly a homogeneous command and control single mind.
With many in the ISA secretly opposing Musharraf and up to all kinds of mischief. To expect TGB to know about all these palace intrigues is a dubious assumption at best when its quite clear Musharraf himself does not know the half of it either. The USA is deeply divided and so is Pakistan. At least Pakistan is better able to keep its kooks better boxed in.
You been sucking on lemons? you sure are a sourpuss.
I asked one because one is here. if more come I will be happy to ask them also.
I in no way was agreeing or disagreeing with crisscrosses post just noting that tgb may have missed it.
You should consider taking a vacation from here, your a bit tense in MHO.
 

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