Question Raptor Lake - Official Thread

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Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Since we already have the first Raptor Lake leak I'm thinking it should have it's own thread.
What do we know so far?
From Anandtech's Intel Process Roadmap articles from July:

Built on Intel 7 with upgraded FinFET
10-15% PPW (performance-per-watt)
Last non-tiled consumer CPU as Meteor Lake will be tiled

I'm guessing this will be a minor update to ADL with just a few microarchitecture changes to the cores. The larger change will be the new process refinement allowing 8+16 at the top of the stack.

Will it work with current z690 motherboards? If yes then that could be a major selling point for people to move to ADL rather than wait.
 
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TheELF

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2012
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Actually they started back with the 9900k. Imagine that.
Yes sure, that's why every overclocking guide before that starts with the words, this is the hacked bios you need to flash to be able to overclock because power is limited to stock TDP....
All the mobos before that had unlimited power limits, with the 9900k they started to use power limits for the first time.
 

utahraptor

Golden Member
Apr 26, 2004
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How difficult is it to change the power limit? Can it be done in real time on the fly or do you have to go into the bios? I was curious if you had like a car racing pedal peripheral input, could you rig that up so that if you say pushed it a little the power limit would up maybe 20% and if you pushed it all the way down it would go to unlimited. That way you could hammer down if you had a temporary but heavy work load or your frames started to drop in a game or something.
 

gdansk

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2011
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The limit is whatever people will buy.
You're right in the end but are consumers given enough options? I bought a 230W TDP CPU. But I don't use it that way. AMD didn't get the message that I'd have preferred 170W TDP because I bought the "wrong" SKU. And the availability of Intel's more reasonable power limit SKUs is almost always awful.
 

TheELF

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2012
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How difficult is it to change the power limit? Can it be done in real time on the fly or do you have to go into the bios? I was curious if you had like a car racing pedal peripheral input, could you rig that up so that if you say pushed it a little the power limit would up maybe 20% and if you pushed it all the way down it would go to unlimited. That way you could hammer down if you had a temporary but heavy work load or your frames started to drop in a game or something.
You use one main setup from bios, either full bore or minimum, and then you use IXTU from windows to set up profiles for any workload you run that would benefit from a different setup, say you use your PC 90% for webbrowsing you would set the bios to low power and use IXTU to give as high an amount of power as you want to the other 10% of workloads you only use rarely.
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
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~1500 W, including everything else in the system (memory, dGPU, chipsets, etc)

sheeze why not just make it 1750W where its the limit for most 120V 15amp socket in most of America.
Lets force people to put a dedicated outlet on its own 15amp breaker just for there PC.

Or for the Entusiest, lets have them install a NEMA-20 or a 240V 30Amp socket just for there gaming PC to go pew pew when they are powering a 4090 along with it.
 

MarkPost

Senior member
Mar 1, 2017
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People buy and do all sorts of stupid and dangerous things.

Companies should be more responsible and not sell the product at a ridiculous and dangerous setting just to be able to top the charts.

View attachment 69942

I quickly cut the irrelevant low power part of the table off. Even at 250W it performs as high as 7950X. I will run my CPU capped at 180W, that is what my air cooler can handle. I am now playing with 13600K and 13700K, not sure which one I will keep.

That score @275W, is what a 7950X capped @150W scores
 
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LightningZ71

Golden Member
Mar 10, 2017
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The gap will increase as new demanding games are made

Judging by the positioning of the 5800X3d, it doesn't get any more obvious that this game has a cache thrashing critical loop. It looks to possibly have a use for extra threads over 16, but it isn't a massive need considering how the 12900k is beaten by the 13600k. That demonstrates that clocks and L2 are important too.

No real idea why Rocket lake is where it is, save for code favorable to the Intel cove core design and Intel's cache strategy.
 

A///

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2017
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If intel can get their power use under control for meteor lake or arrow lake then they stand a very good chance of very highly likely out gunning Zen 5. Power use is the femme fatale for Intel right now. It's an issue for those who care about power use or the heat associated with it. Raptorlake encompasses the lessons they learned over the years and as prices for implementations have gone down it made sense to begin incorporating one trick wonders into newer product stacks. The better cache layout on raptor is likely insprired from the lessons learned about the 5775c. I don't know about the e core spam. Their engagement is strange and the lack of ht is a con for me. If Intel can solve these minor issues going forward their approach makes sense unless amd can manufacturing higher core dies at a cost effective rate.I did see the video for the bom of an amd 16 core but it ignored r&D costs and general overhead. I'm looking forward to what Intel can address and push out over the next two generations. Whatever comes out then would have begun development around the time of swan.
 

A///

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2017
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mindfactory sales data is out. Zen 4 still not hot, but neither is raptor lake. Zen 3 has impressive sales across its range. it was assumed ddr4 would be the big save for raptor lake due to the lower costs but it doesn't seem like that helped it much. Sales data may improve for raptor lake in the coming weeks with the holiday season upon us, raptor may see a large increase in sales. Zen 3 specifically the 5800x3d may be the biggest thorn in amd and intel's ass right now.
 

nicalandia

Diamond Member
Jan 10, 2019
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mindfactory sales data is out. Zen 4 still not hot, but neither is raptor lake. Zen 3 has impressive sales across its range. it was assumed ddr4 would be the big save for raptor lake due to the lower costs but it doesn't seem like that helped it much. Sales data may improve for raptor lake in the coming weeks with the holiday season upon us, raptor may see a large increase in sales. Zen 3 specifically the 5800x3d may be the biggest thorn in amd and intel's ass right now.
That's because with DDR4 Raptor Lake Falls behind Zen4 and 5800X3D
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
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Still has nothing to do with a specific Intel CPU vs specific AMD CPU.

What a laugh.

Yes sure, that's why every overclocking guide before that starts with the words, this is the hacked bios you need to flash to be able to overclock because power is limited to stock TDP....

Sorry but that's a fiction. 8600k owners weren't limited by firmware.

You're right in the end but are consumers given enough options?

Technically yes, since at least AMD provides not one but two ECO modes you can toggle on with a software switch (assuming AMD has sorted out the issues with Ryzen Master not properly supporting Raphael's ECO modes on all boards yet). Not sure how hard/easy it is to use software tools to constrain power use on Raptor Lake. Alternatively you can just limit power draw by speccing a smaller cooler, though as @Kocicak has encountered with certain workloads, that doesn't always seem to work out very well.

On the Intel side, consumers are kind of stuck since they can't even get updated hardware (Raptor Cove, Gracemont Plus) except from a few "enthusiast" SKUs. Hopefully there will be OEM-oriented versions of Raptor Lake available eventually? The entire mobile fleet is still Alder Lake, and everything from the 13600 on down are also Alder Lake, so if you wanted the updated hardware with (mostly) improved efficiency, you're out of luck unless you're getting DiY-oriented gear.

(and if we're being honest, AMD hasn't released many Raphael SKUs yet either, though that will change dramatically in January when they launch some mobile product you won't be able to buy until maybe June at the earliest)
 
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A///

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2017
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That's because with DDR4 Raptor Lake Falls behind Zen4 and 5800X3D
ive had a severa drinks an am half in the bag to th zapoid but that was my point with the budget comments a while back. ddr5 prices need to bottom out big time oh otherwise raptor lake sales will be a corky storky dud like alderlake was because it came after the high tide of sales periods. it's rough riding from here on out until the recession and associated inflation runs out by 2024. I'm paying 40-50 pc higher costs at grocery and clothing stores than I was last year. at this rate i may go vegan to save money.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
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I don't believe Alder Lake was a innovation or a breakthrough. It was not focused on efficiency that mattered in a laptop or a datacentre.

If Alderlake was just 30% faster than Rocketlake, no one would have cared this much.

But because it was twice as fast and practically at same power levels, while coming in the same year as Rocketlake, suddenly they are performance competitive when it looked very far away from doing so just 6 months prior to it.

You do need increased efficiency to do this. They could have capped it at say, 160W but they did not.

There's a difference in laptops. In laptops it's less about power efficiency at it's about battery efficiency. Because in laptops battery life is dominated by idle power use plus it's ability to get to lower power states quickly.
 

Asterox

Golden Member
May 15, 2012
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mindfactory sales data is out. Zen 4 still not hot, but neither is raptor lake. Zen 3 has impressive sales across its range. it was assumed ddr4 would be the big save for raptor lake due to the lower costs but it doesn't seem like that helped it much. Sales data may improve for raptor lake in the coming weeks with the holiday season upon us, raptor may see a large increase in sales. Zen 3 specifically the 5800x3d may be the biggest thorn in amd and intel's ass right now.

That is AMD-s plan, and by logic it is only problem from Intel point of view.AMD sells Zen 3 processors, unless something has changed in the meantime.

AM5 has been active for a little over a month, or he didn't even get his shoes dirty yet.

Raptor Lake lounch, or that business week Mindfactory sold 1020 red ones.


This week sales, but the business week is not over yet. :mask:

 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
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No real idea why Rocket lake is where it is, save for code favorable to the Intel cove core design and Intel's cache strategy.

Yeah Rocket Lake being where it is is weird indeed. And the 7600x being slightly quicker than the 10900K is also very odd.

As far as I know, that game only hammers the CPU in certain segments of the game like the populated areas and whenever the rats are on screen. Supposedly there can be up to 300,000 rats on screen.
 

poke01

Platinum Member
Mar 8, 2022
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My problem is lower
If Alderlake was just 30% faster than Rocketlake, no one would have cared this much.

But because it was twice as fast and practically at same power levels, while coming in the same year as Rocketlake, suddenly they are performance competitive when it looked very far away from doing so just 6 months prior to it.

You do need increased efficiency to do this. They could have capped it at say, 160W but they did not.

There's a difference in laptops. In laptops it's less about power efficiency at it's about battery efficiency. Because in laptops battery life is dominated by idle power use plus it's ability to get to lower power states quickly.
In laptops Intel boosts past their rated TDP. Say the P series it's TDP is 28 watts but it goes up to 64 watts. This is not efficiency. Intel low power states are horrible and crap on laptops.

Turbo boost is Intel's own enemy. Disable it and you don't get the pref you paid for.

If Intel truly creates a CPU that operates at the rated TDP to get the full performance like they used to a very long time ago Intel would be king in laptops.
 
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IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
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In laptops Intel boosts past their rated TDP. Say the P series it's TDP is 28 watts but it goes up to 64 watts. This is not efficiency. Intel low power states are horrible and crap on laptops.

TDP = power used in laptops, thus it has to be conformed to it unlike in desktops where they can do whatever they want with heatsinks sized and weighing like a brick.

Sure lots of laptops go beyond that but that's their choice to oversize the cooling capability. But if the laptop is meant for X TDP, then it *has* to ramp back down to X TDP regardless or it'll overheat and damage the components and/or chassis.
 

A///

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2017
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This week sales, but the business week is not over yet. :mask:
Because it makes sense to buy am4 over am5 and 13th gen. DDr5 is expensive no matter what. You can use a ddr4 board but you are leaving performance on the table. It's why i said that rpl may suffer from the same faith that alder had. Poor sales even if it is the better product by a mile.