Question Raptor Lake - Official Thread

Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Since we already have the first Raptor Lake leak I'm thinking it should have it's own thread.
What do we know so far?
From Anandtech's Intel Process Roadmap articles from July:

Built on Intel 7 with upgraded FinFET
10-15% PPW (performance-per-watt)
Last non-tiled consumer CPU as Meteor Lake will be tiled

I'm guessing this will be a minor update to ADL with just a few microarchitecture changes to the cores. The larger change will be the new process refinement allowing 8+16 at the top of the stack.

Will it work with current z690 motherboards? If yes then that could be a major selling point for people to move to ADL rather than wait.
 
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DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
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Sure, lets cherrypick numbers and reviews to match our conclusion.
Hi! Welcome new reg who is (apparently) maybe biased in the same fashion as a number of other new regs we've had over the last few months who totally doesn't seem to be part of a guerilla marketing campaign. In general it's not a good idea for anyone to cherrypick numbers, including you. But people keep trying to do so anyway. So um, take your own advice and have a nice day!

Let's be fair here, we can't openly criticize Intel for throwing efficiency out the windows while also complaining the E cores aren't scaling high enough. The E cores are there in a support role, they better run with moderate clocks.
I was actually expecting e-core speeds to go down by necessity, to bring them back to their efficiency range. There are twice as many. Anything else throws too large a power share at the e-cores, possibly at the expense of the Raptor Cove power budget.

Geekbench is a better all around benchmark for ST and MT
Ugh no thank you. Cinebench has its limitations, but . . . bleh.
 

tamz_msc

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2017
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Windows 11 22H2 shouldn't be used for benchmarking at all in its current state. There is a glaring flaw in it which is that the CPU utilization metric in task manager doesn't get reflected in CPU utilization showed while using any kind of overlay, be it MSI Afterburner, AMD or NVIDIA overlays, and even Windows Game Bar while using Win + G. The overlays barely show any utilization at all, while task manager reports the correct usage.

Until issues such as this are fixed, reviewers should stay away from Windows 11 22H2.
 

poke01

Senior member
Mar 8, 2022
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People buy and do all sorts of stupid and dangerous things.

Companies should be more responsible and not sell the product at a ridiculous and dangerous setting just to be able to top the charts.

View attachment 69942

I quickly cut the irrelevant low power part of the table off. Even at 250 watts it performs as high as 7950X. I will run my CPU capped at 180W, that is what my air cooler can handle. I am now playing with 13600K and 13700K, not sure which one I will keep.
IMO, keep the 13600K because this is a dead platform and it's always good to have some extra money in your bank account. Also I think the big changes are coming soon with Arrow Lake. So the i5 13600k will get replaced in 2-3 years as you I believe are an enthusiast.
 
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IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
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With 8 extra E cores they can dial down frequencies in MT and have higher thtoughput at lower TDPs, you have noticed that they aknowledge that the competition has the perf/watt crown and that they hope to get it back in 2024.
Ok, but they'll need the full TDP again to compete with Zen 4. I don't really believe they'll cut the top TDP figure, because it can be used for more performance. The trend is increasing TDPs.

That doesn't mean chips are less efficient. They are just increasing the dynamic range. The low power chips are awesome nowadays.
 
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IntelUser2000

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But, your all E core idea is a good idea for certain use cases. That is why Intel is pursuing that idea with Sierra Forest with rumors of 128 E cores.
It doesn't have to be 1.25x the area, because if they are designing a new SoC with all E cores, things can be moved around to optimize for it. Right now I bet you there's a fair bit of empty space cause you are trying to fit differently sized rectangles into a one large rectangle.

Also Sierra Forest with Intel 3 in 2024 is definitely going above 128 E cores. I'm expecting 256 or even more. If we're expecting Granite Rapids to be at least 120 cores, then 120 E cores on the same node is kinda underwhelming. By pure ratio of core sizes, we should expect something like 384 cores.

Crestmont is probably going to outperform Sunny Cove in perf/clock and it's something they'll need to go against 2024 competition.

So PMICs are being used because they are smaller than capacitors? Or relatively cheaper?
Beancounters. That's it.

All this talk about being more reliable hasn't resulted in anything more reliable because they take more reliable components and use it to save on costs instead. So you end up being the same, or even worse than before.

Case in point when I bought a broken e-bike to fix. I noticed the MOSFETs for the power controller short circuited. The datasheets showed 56V for the maximum, while the battery is rated 44V, or 12 LiPo cells. Well, when fully charged, the 12 LiPo cells would reach 51.2V, dangerously close to the absolute maximum rating of the MOSFET.

I bet over time it got degraded to the point where it went down to 51V. We're talking about an e-bike that would have cost $3,000+ US when new.

20 years ago, they didn't design it that way. Sure the technology improved but the mindset went the opposite. Most prevalent among Chinese vendors, but rest of the world adopts it to compete.

Same with SSDs using "no moving and reliable parts" but they turn it around to save on cost.

Also the faux green movement doesn't help. Lead-free solder is brittle, unlike leaded solder. And they can create solder whiskers, and short out components over time.

If they were really being "green" they would make it more repairable, and make things like laptops more modular. Companies like Apple penalized repair shops for years now.
 
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pakotlar

Senior member
Aug 22, 2003
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I wouldnt count on a 5.3GHz all 16 cores, to be within the >35% MT uplift 5GHz is enough, so that should land by there.
In any case the performance uplift this upcoming generation isn’t impressive outside of server parts, going by rumors. Much better than we had in Intel dominating days, but I’ve gotten spoiled by AMD in recent years and want more high-IPC cores in consumer space. There’s only so much they can do keeping core counts low, or using efficiency cores with circa Skylake IPC.
 
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pakotlar

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Aug 22, 2003
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Golden Cove shows strong performance in Cinebench because of its unified scheduler and larger L2. Larger L2 alone should give Zen 4 a sizeable boost in Cinebench, though not that it matters much for the end user in the end.

Thats about R15, now 2 Cinebench releases out of date. Do we have any indication on how R23 performs (the Cinebench Golden Cove is typically compared to Zen 3 on)?

Edit: Interesting article btw. One thing they mention is the large L3 improves IPC by avoiding the large latency spike by going to memory. This will, btw, also improve overall performance because Zen 3 incurs a huge power spike (large relative to L3 access) when going to main memory, so when accessing data from L3, Zen 3 can sustain higher clocks (all else held equal).

Alder Lake behavior is different. Its performance in L3 is abysmal bothin terms of latency and in terms of the power it takes to fetch a byte, compared to Zen 3. So for Alder Lake, and Raptor Lake, its very important to stay in L1 and L2. That’s why Raptor Lake’s doubled L2 is so important. We’re going to see better performance for latency sensitive applications that have many accesses that spill out of L2 currently on ADL, as well as lower power, and that benefit will be disproportionate to the benefit Zen 4 would get.

On this note, we should expect Raptor Lake and Zen 4 to converge in terms of power efficiency due to microarchitecture (not entirely of course), rather than diverge, because Zen 3 was already so darned efficient, and Alder Lake so poor (at the clocks needed to match Zen 3 performance). Regression to the mean. Zen 4 moving to TSMC 5nm will decrease the strength of convergence due to microarchitecture, unfortunately for Intel.
 
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FangBLade

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Apr 13, 2022
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That's What happens when your L2 size goes Up by 60% but your associativity remains the same(10Way for Client , but 16-Way for Servers)
Yeah, the reason why Zen 3 benefits so much of extra cache is because latency increase is minimal, excellent implementation, and Zen 4 l2 cache was already tested and it is also excellent, minimal latency increase while having 2x size, can't wait to see how Zen 4 scales in gaming with 3dcache + double l2.
 
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IntelUser2000

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Oct 14, 2003
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I talked about it here: https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/intel-current-and-future-lakes-rapids-thread.2509080/post-40772218

DLVR is not the focus. I hate how the press doesn't even read the content and just post whatever they feel like.

(If there is a part of society that needs to go off the face of the earth, it's the press. I am not talking just about mainstream media. I mean same with tech channels and youtube channels, all of them. GONE)

The secondary VR is the point. As I said in my conclusion, the second regulator has to be off for the most efficient point, because the secondary regulator reduces efficiency. With higher loads it has to be engaged more and that's why the drop happens(among other reasons).

The secondary regulator is not much more than a guarantee that the CPU can work at lower voltages without causing stability issues. If say 50% is the cutoff point where the second regulator has to be active, then you' get less and less gains as you go above that.

And typically overclocking and adjusting BIOS messes with power management features. I can't imagine it working well in that case at all.

Also yes in heavy MT loads you lose gains. That's why it's a mobile feature and likely benefit low load and burst scenarios.
 
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Det0x

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Sep 11, 2014
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OK now if 2300 ST can be had without too much trouble, Raptor Lake starts looking attractive.
Seems like 2300ST is already reachable today with a Alder Lake @ 5.5ghz
1659806329207.png
LIMITATIONS
  • Use Geekbench 5.4.5. and HWinfo v7.26
  • Maximum Frequency/cache limitation 5500MHz
  • Disabling CPU cores/HT/SMT NOT allowed.
  • A VALID Geekbench 5 link is required.
  • A CPUZ 2.01 or newer Validation link is required, registered on your HWBOT username.
  • A verification screenshot is required, using the official wallpaper, GB 5 score, CPUZ tabs for CPU & Memory and HWinfo.
  • Only members of the rookie, novice, enthusiast league may participate.
  • No Extreme cooling allowed (chiller, Single Stage, Cascade, Dry ice, LN2)
 
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nicalandia

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Jan 10, 2019
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230W is the PL2 on high end 12th gen Intel parts, nothing to do with AM5. Raptor Lake is 250W.
350W is a number you made up, because you have no idea what you’re talking about.
Would you stop spamming this thread with your nonsense nonsense gibberish?? I am about to report you for derailing this thread.
 
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ZGR

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Oct 26, 2012
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Ashes is definitely an interesting benchmark. It seems to make use of e-cores which is pretty awesome. Here is a 12900kf from yesterday within spitting distance of the 13900k.

1660300495389.png

The last update for Ashes includes this changelog:

v3.1 Changelog
  • Update Mesh optimization pass to reduce game load up time by 70%
  • Camera angle adjusted to be less top-down and adjust as the player zooms in and out
  • Max threads increased from 16 to 24 to increase performance as many machines now have more CPU cores
  • Update the Oxide logo
  • Adjusted rendering priorities so that larger units look substantially better when there are fewer units on the screen
  • Artemis HP reduced from 575 to 480
  • Version bumped to v3.10
  • Updated Turtle Wars scenario for balance changes from 3.0
  • Updated Entropy scenario for same reason
  • Regenerated Nashira map

If the game engine supported more threads, the 13900k would actually scale really well over the 12900k here. If the bigger L2 cache helps Raptor Lake get better minimum FPS, then that would be awesome, but we have to wait for reviews.

Frametime analysis needs to make a comeback.
 

igor_kavinski

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2020
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AMD has done some silly stuff in the mobile space that's similar (see: 5xxx series and Cezanne/Renoir).
I wouldn't use that word for what they do. The correct word is DECEPTION. A series should be based on the same architecture. In 5000 series, you have to know that odd number is Zen 2 and even number is Zen 3. Most users wouldn't be aware of this and suppose if they have a choice between 5500U and 5600U and buy the former due to lower price, later on they will be angry when they find out that 5600U was the better buy.
 
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psolord

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Not sure if anyone noticed but those price pics seem to confirm one thing about gen 13 - default max boost clocks.


View attachment 66569
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My stupid ass though they were grams and I was like, hey look, the bigger the cpu, the heavier it gets, aka more transistors, yeepee, I'm so smart! xD

(yes I know about the fusing off of parts on same dies and related tiering-I wasn't born yesterday, I'm just stupid, it happens)
 

maddie

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Jul 18, 2010
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YES. Cause maybe I misunderstood something, so please tell, if Im wrong I wanna know and correct myself. I thought amd increased power consumption across the board to compete with Intel, while intel kept the consumption steady while adding more cores. Is that wrong?
Well you asked for it. You are obnoxiously aggressive, confrontational and frankly boorish as a new member here. Most of the big arguments taking place are between members who have been battling for a long time and understand limits for the most part. Jumping in and trying to intimidate opposing views is what is leading to a pushback.

In other words, it's how you write, not so much what you write.

With regards to power, Intel countered with increased power then AMD partially returned the favor. To be honest, they (AMD) probably did design for higher clocks and power before ADL emerged, as the circuitry changes needed would have to a fundamental part of the design and not a sudden reaction.
 
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Det0x

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Sep 11, 2014
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Another Intel Core i9-13900K “Raptor Lake” CPU gets tested ahead of October launch

The CPU was tested on MSI Z690 GODLIKE motherboards and compared with Core i9-12900K CPU. The system was equipped with Colorful Gamer RGB DDR5-4800 and GeForce RTX 3090 GPU. EJ used Phanteks Glacier One 360 MP solution featuring Asetek AIO cooler. Their mini-review is focusing on comparison between 16-core i9-12900K Alder Lake and 24-core i9-13900K Raptor Lake CPUs.

In Prime95, Raptor Lake running all cores at 5.2 GHz saturates at 378W and 85°C. Judging from the video, this appears to be the Maximum Turbo Boost limit set to 440W.
1662288916386.png

The sample was then tested in most popular CPU test: CPU-Z and Cinebench. Intel 13th Gen CPU is a clear winner here in all tests. The performance appears to match what was already shared.
1662288942198.png
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This sample is clearly not optimized for gaming, though. The performance is all over the price for some titles tested at 1080p resolution. In some cases, Raptor Lake is indeed faster, but there are instances where it is totally opposite. In fact, even with the Performance unlocked to 5.5 GHz, the CPU ends up slower than 5.2 GHz.

1662289246445.png
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Numbers pretty much as expected, but it seems like even an elevated powerlimit wont be enough to save raptor lake against zen4 this time..
 
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dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
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Intel made that decision many years ago and will be sticking with it at least until 2030.

Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Luna Lake and Nova Lake e cores((Gracemont/Crestmont/Skymont/Darkmont) will not incorporate AVX512
Nova is aiming for 2025/2026. That is a far cry from "at least until 2030". Nova is supposedly a huge architecture change (biggest change since Core), do you have evidence that it won't have AVX-512? Or that they won't fix the scheduler problem, or that they won't have a AVX-512 chiplet?

I do find it humorous to watch people who bashed AVX-512 now claim it is great and those who claimed AVX-512 is great now say it is niche.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
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It doesn't matter whether you have the best processes or design. Tradeoffs always exist. So if you can target one design for low thread and other for MT the latter chip will always be quite a bit better power and area wise.

The computer world keeps getting complex whether in cooling, architecture, or software. Hybrid seems like a logical next step. Multiple cores and multiple threads per core was before that.

Another thing is increased use of fixed function and purpose-oriented units.

Alderlake is just the first generation and a damn good try. I assume the gap between P and E cores in regards to perf/clock will close quite a bit, but few % every generation culminating in quite a bit over 3-4 generations.
 

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