Rape victim is coveted status - George Wills

[Theb]

Too much is being done to stop sexual assault? Am I understanding his position correctly?

 

[brandonb]

I like how laying there doing nothing to reciprocate is "acting willing", even after saying no before. There is no requirement to continue saying no over and over again to unwanted sexual advances in order for it to be sexual assault.

What the hell is wrong with you.

If a woman said no, then a guy proceeded to continue. Don't you think she'd jump out of bed when she started feeling a penis enter her or his hands going around her panties and sliding them down and said "WTF are you doing? Get out of this bed! What didn't you understand about the No?"

But she let him... That is consent.

Some guys are persistent, or think someone may be joking around, etc I'm sorry to say, but she consented. If I was her, I would have done exactly what I said above. If they continued, I'd fight them tooth and nail. But she submitted and gave in to his demands. That is consent.

Using an analogy. Let's say you are shopping for a car, and the used car salesman said "You really want this car don't you?" And you said "No..." And he tried again later : "But it's really fast, and has shiny wheels! Let's go inside and sign the paperwork." And you went in and did it although you already said "No" doesn't mean you were conned. If you didn't want it, you keep saying no until they get it, or you leave.. Simple as that.

I'm surprised that you honestly don't get this.

 

[nehalem256]

Too much is being done to stop sexual assault? Am I understanding his position correctly?

His position is that their is a manufactured rape victim complex based off clearly fabricated statistics.

The administration’s crucial and contradictory statistics are validated the usual way, by official repetition; Joe Biden has been heard from. The statistics are: One in five women is sexually assaulted while in college, and only 12 percent of assaults are reported. Simple arithmetic demonstrates that if the 12 percent reporting rate is correct, the 20 percent assault rate is preposterous. Mark Perry of the American Enterprise Institute notes, for example, that in the four years 2009 to 2012 there were 98 reported sexual assaults at Ohio State. That would be 12 percent of 817 total out of a female student population of approximately 28,000, for a sexual assault rate of approximately 2.9 percent — too high but nowhere near 20 percent.

 

[fskimospy]

If a woman said no, then a guy proceeded to continue. Don't you think she'd jump out of bed when she started feeling a penis enter her or his hands going around her panties and sliding them down and said "WTF are you doing? Get out of this bed! What didn't you understand about the No?"

But she let him... That is consent.

Some guys are persistent, or think someone may be joking around, etc I'm sorry to say, but she consented. If I was her, I would have done exactly what I said above. If they continued, I'd fight them tooth and nail. But she submitted and gave in to his demands. That is consent.

Please point me to the legal standard anywhere where after someone says no to sex if they don't fight you off the next time that they are considered to have consented. There is in fact no requirement anywhere to physically resist the person.

Using an analogy. Let's say you are shopping for a car, and the used car salesman said "You really want this car don't you?" And you said "No..." And he tried again later : "But it's really fast, and has shiny wheels! Let's go inside and sign the paperwork." And you went in and did it although you already said "No" doesn't mean you were conned. If you didn't want it, you keep saying no until they get it, or you leave.. Simple as that.

I'm surprised that you honestly don't get this.

Yes, let's use that analogy.

So...holy shit, are you kidding?

Saying no and then not fighting someone off when they continue is not the same thing as going to a car dealership, saying no, and then going in and signing a contract that affirmatively states your desire to buy a car.

This thread is turning into a gold mine of crazy.

 

[Subyman]

Too much is being done to stop sexual assault? Am I understanding his position correctly?

Nope. He's saying that people are being trained to look at any act as being a sexual act and then to be offended by it. Like I said, a man glancing at a butt could be considered offensive to a woman if she is constantly looking to be offended. Some people won't be satisfied until everyone looks straight ahead and feels no emotion.

 

[nehalem256]

Please point me to the legal standard anywhere where after someone says no to sex if they don't fight you off the next time that they are considered to have consented. There is in fact no requirement anywhere to physically resist the person.

Except the quote from her is that she "basically" said no.

btw still waiting for an answer to:

What if he started undressing her when they woke in the morning? What about the next night? Exactly how long is one "no" good for when the girl otherwise appears to be acting willing?

Or are you unable to think for yourself and can only mindlessly parrot feminist rhetoric?

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Using an analogy. Let's say you are shopping for a car, and the used car salesman said "You really want this car don't you?" And you said "No..." And he tried again later : "But it's really fast, and has shiny wheels! Let's go inside and sign the paperwork." And you went in and did it although you already said "No" doesn't mean you were conned. If you didn't want it, you keep saying no until they get it, or you leave.. Simple as that.

Voluntarily signing a contract is consent. But let's say you were passed out and someone picked your hand up, placed a pen in it, and moved your arm to sign your name to a contract; is that contract legally binding? No, of course not. Similarly, the absence of fighting does not mean that one has consented to sexual intercourse. Saying "no" is a pretty clear indicator of not consenting; if a man chooses to pursue further, he would be well advised to make damn sure he gets an actual "yes" before taking things too far, or he's liable to be charged with sexual assault or rape.

 

[brandonb]

Please point me to the legal standard anywhere where after someone says no to sex if they don't fight you off the next time that they are considered to have consented. There is in fact no requirement anywhere to physically resist the person.

Sorry its common sense. If you don't want to be raped. You GTFO...

Yes, let's use that analogy.

So...holy shit, are you kidding?

Saying no and then not fighting someone off when they continue is not the same thing as going to a car dealership, saying no, and then going in and signing a contract that affirmatively states your desire to buy a car.

Not fighting someone off? She was sleeping in the same bed as someone who wanted sex... He was persistent, and she stayed there and took it like a champ. It has nothing to do with fighting someone off... She could have just got out of bed and walked away... She didn't even do that.

This thread is turning into a gold mine of crazy.

You'd be the only one.

 

[etrigan420]

You'd be the only one.

No, he wouldn't.

Likening buying a car to rape?

Gold. Mine.

 

[fskimospy]

Sorry its common sense. If you don't want to be raped. You GTFO...

Not fighting someone off? She was sleeping in the same bed as someone who wanted sex... He was persistent, and she stayed there and took it like a champ. It has nothing to do with fighting someone off... She could have just got out of bed and walked away... She didn't even do that.

Today I learned that when it comes to sexual assault the burden is on the victim to escape, not on the perpetrator not to commit sexual assault.

Speaking of a gold mine of crazy...

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

She was sleeping in the same bed as someone who wanted sex... He was persistent, and she stayed there and took it like a champ. It has nothing to do with fighting someone off... She could have just got out of bed and walked away... She didn't even do that.

Again, how does anyone know this happened. Six weeks elapsed before anything was reported and it seems that most assume it's true. Well it might be, but there is no evidence to it.

 

[brandonb]

Voluntarily signing a contract is consent. But let's say you were passed out and someone picked your hand up, placed a pen in it, and moved your arm to sign your name to a contract; is that contract legally binding? No, of course not. Similarly, the absence of fighting does not mean that one has consented to sexual intercourse. Saying "no" is a pretty clear indicator of not consenting; if a man chooses to pursue further, he would be well advised to make damn sure he gets an actual "yes" before taking things too far, or he's liable to be charged with sexual assault or rape.

She wasn't passed out. Nor was she drunk. It actually says:

where in 2013 a student “was in her room with a guy with whom she’d been hooking up for three months”:

So they were friends with benefits or whatever for months prior. She never said No either... She "basically said no" Which could mean "I'm tired and not in the mood."

 

[fskimospy]

She wasn't passed out. Nor was she drunk. It actually says:

So they were friends with benefits or whatever for months prior. She never said No either... She "basically said no" Which could mean "I'm tired and not in the mood."

Nice selective editing. What it ACTUALLY says is this:

“They’d now decided — mutually, she thought — just to be friends. When he ended up falling asleep on her bed, she changed into pajamas and climbed in next to him. Soon, he was putting his arm around her and taking off her clothes. ‘I basically said, “No, I don’t want to have sex with you.” And then he said, “OK, that’s fine” and stopped

They made a prior determination just to be friends. She said she didn't want to have sex, and he agreed and stopped, which clearly indicates he understood what was being communicated.

 

[thraashman]

If a woman said no, then a guy proceeded to continue. Don't you think she'd jump out of bed when she started feeling a penis enter her or his hands going around her panties and sliding them down and said "WTF are you doing? Get out of this bed! What didn't you understand about the No?"

But she let him... That is consent.

Some guys are persistent, or think someone may be joking around, etc I'm sorry to say, but she consented. If I was her, I would have done exactly what I said above. If they continued, I'd fight them tooth and nail. But she submitted and gave in to his demands. That is consent.

Using an analogy. Let's say you are shopping for a car, and the used car salesman said "You really want this car don't you?" And you said "No..." And he tried again later : "But it's really fast, and has shiny wheels! Let's go inside and sign the paperwork." And you went in and did it although you already said "No" doesn't mean you were conned. If you didn't want it, you keep saying no until they get it, or you leave.. Simple as that.

I'm surprised that you honestly don't get this.

Exactly. Just like how if you have a gun and a police officer yells at you to put the gun down and you do. He doesn't have any right to shoot you when you pull out another gun!

Man, there are a lot of rapists in P&N I realize.

 

[Jaskalas]

There is in fact no requirement anywhere to physically resist the person.

That's a tough one. A guy cannot persist once invited to bed? Once he declares his intent, she need not resist?

The car salesmen analogy is pretty good to counter a single meek little "no". Shouldn't that "no" involve taking action to end that situation, to no longer lay in bed with that person? The self description of being too lazy to do something about it is quite damning.

Rape is violence, rape is force. That little story is neither. Sure it's a grey area, but I cannot condemn a man for being invited to a situation and taking advantage of it when meeting no resistance. I really cannot treat this guy the same as if he dragged someone off the street, beat them until they stopped squirming, and then pounded them until they were bloody.

There are circumstances and factors, degrees of immorality that must be separated and addressed as separate things.

 

[brandonb]

Nice selective editing. What it ACTUALLY says is this:



They made a prior determination just to be friends. She said she didn't want to have sex, and he agreed and stopped, which clearly indicates he understood what was being communicated.

And what did the rest say?

I was just tired and wanted to go to bed. I let him finish. I pulled my panties back on and went to sleep.’”

Let me bold that:

I was just tired and wanted to go to bed. I let him finish. I pulled my panties back on and went to sleep.’”

I let him. What does that mean? I let him? To me, that sounds like consent. If she did not want to let him finish, she could have jumped out of bed. Pulled her panties back on. And left the area. If he held her down, or wouldn't let her escape, that is rape. But she let him.

 

[fskimospy]

That's a tough one. A guy cannot persist once invited to bed? Once he declares his intent, she need not resist?

If someone wants to have sex with you they will indicate it as such. It doesn't mean that they need to sign a contract saying yes, but after someone has clearly said no to you and you acknowledge it, simply the fact of them enduring your advances does not imply consent.

You are under no requirement to continue to fight against a person in order to not have them inflict an unwanted sexual act upon you.

The car salesmen analogy is pretty good to counter a single meek little "no". Shouldn't that "no" involve taking action to end that situation, to no longer lay in bed with that person? The self description of being too lazy to do something about it is quite damning.

The car salesman analogy is horrifyingly bad. It is equating not continuing to fight against being assaulted with an affirmative contract signed.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Rape is violence, rape is force.

No, rape is sexual penetration without consent. That's why we have a thing called "statutory rape;" both partners may have been perfectly willing, but one was not legally able to consent. I would agree that this situation is not as bad as a violent attack on the street, but it's still rape.

 

[thraashman]

And what did the rest say?



Let me bold that:



I let him. What does that mean? I let him? To me, that sounds like consent. If she did not want to let him finish, she could have jumped out of bed. Pulled her panties back on. And left the area. If he held her down, or wouldn't let her escape, that is rape. But she let him.

So, honest question? How many women have you raped? Because this is you saying you clearly consider his action (which were fucking RAPE) to be ok. So, based on this criteria, how many times in your life have you been a fucking rapist piece of shit?

 

[Jaskalas]

You use the word "continue" to fight. That is wrong. There was no fight. You cannot continue what was never started.

You also directly ignore the most significant point of my argument. That you cannot treat him the same as someone who violently dragged her off the street and beat her into submission.

You must have distinctions based on the circumstances!

 

[fskimospy]

You use the word "continue" to fight. That is wrong. There was no fight. You cannot continue what was never started.

You also directly ignore the most significant point of my argument. That you cannot treat him the same as someone who violently dragged her off the street and beat her into submission.

You must have distinctions based on the circumstances!

Interesting. So if I have my wallet sitting on the table. You ask me if you can take it. I say "no". If you take it later and I don't forcibly stop you, by your logic this means I consented to your theft.

As for whether you want to treat violent rape differently than acquaintance rape, that's not what's under discussion here.

 

[nehalem256]

They made a prior determination just to be friends.

Well sorta...

They’d now decided — mutually, she thought — just to be friends

Of course then right afterward she jumped into bed with the guy. One can see why he might be confused about the whole "friendship" thing.

She said she didn't want to have sex, and he agreed and stopped, which clearly indicates he understood what was being communicated.

‘I basically said, “No, I don’t want to have sex with you.” And then he said, “OK, that’s fine”

Her whole story is filled with equivocation on what happened from beginning to end.

Jump into bed, sorta say you don't want to have sex, and let the guy undress you and get undressed himself without in any way indicating displeasure...

Why do you seem to think women are so incapable of agency?

 

[Atomic Playboy]

You use the word "continue" to fight. That is wrong. There was no fight. You cannot continue what was never started.

You also directly ignore the most significant point of my argument. That you cannot treat him the same as someone who violently dragged her off the street and beat her into submission.

You must have distinctions based on the circumstances!

And the person who mugs me outside my house and punches me in the face isn't as bad as the person who robs a bank and shoots the teller. But it doesn't really give me much solace to hear, "Hey, it could've been worse, you could've been shot!" Well no shit; that doesn't exactly forgive the crime, does it?

 

[brandonb]

So, honest question? How many women have you raped? Because this is you saying you clearly consider his action (which were fucking RAPE) to be ok. So, based on this criteria, how many times in your life have you been a fucking rapist piece of shit?

Well, since I consider rape differently than you. By my definition: 0. By your definition: 0...

I've never had a gal break off a friends with benefits, then hop into bed with me, and let me put it in her vagina.

 

[alzan]

That's a tough one. A guy cannot persist once invited to bed? Once he declares his intent, she need not resist?

The car salesmen analogy is pretty good to counter a single meek little "no". Shouldn't that "no" involve taking action to end that situation, to no longer lay in bed with that person? The self description of being too lazy to do something about it is quite damning.

Rape is violence, rape is force. That little story is neither. Sure it's a grey area, but I cannot condemn a man for being invited to a situation and taking advantage of it when meeting no resistance. I really cannot treat this guy the same as if he dragged someone off the street, beat them until they stopped squirming, and then pounded them until they were bloody.

There are circumstances and factors, degrees of immorality that must be separated and addressed as separate things.

Translation: "boys will be boys"

Since it was her place and her bed the guy should have either slept on the couch or floor or better yet left.