RANT: When stupid people make laws.

[StageLeft]

For those who care (maybe one of you if you're bored enough?) for a foreign trained nurse to get a nursing license in Alabama that nurse needs a social security number. It's written in law. Do you know how a person get's a SSN? They need a job. Do you know how they get a job? With a nursing license. Do you see what I'm getting at? That's right. After hours of scouring the net and finally pinning it down I've determined that Alabama and other states that require a SSN to issue a nursing license have shot themselves in the foot. If a foreign trained nurse does things "by the book", it's impossible for him or her to work in the US because they will not qualify for a SSN until they have a job. Common hospital policy is no job unless the person already has a license.

Now one might say "Who cares? They don't care about you stupid foreign nurses!" Not so! In fact Alabama board of nursing specifically has a section talking about foreign trained nurses and how to work in AL. They also say that an SSN is required. Upon deeper inspection AL board of nursing's official position is that following the guidelines at SSA they can give the applicant a letter which will allow them to get the license. However, SSA's official position (written in some other publication on their site) is that they will not give SSNs for reasons of state licenses - such as a professional (ie, nursing) license. Obviously the AL board of nursing lawyers who told us it could be done in this matter never bothered to look at the situation in depth. There are lots of states who have done the same asinine thing (requiring an SSN to get license but not being able to issue an SSN).

And so we sent off an email to AL board of nursing and will followup tomorrow to find out exactly how the hell they're going to figure this out. Dumb asses!

 

[Jzero]

"You can only get an SSN if you have work authorization from the INS and the card will be stamped "valid with work authorization from INS"

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Jzero

"You can only get an SSN if you have work authorization from the INS and the card will be stamped "valid with work authorization from INS"

OK I laughed at that but seriously I'm going to only laugh once!!
:|

 

[ElFenix]

chicken... egg... chicken... egg...

yeah i can see the problem.

EDIT: get another job that doesn't require an SSN first?

 

[Sluggo]

Frankly I would feel fortunate that she even gets to practice nursing at all without having received her formal training here in the U.S.

 

[Jzero]

I couldn't resist after reading your other thread

That is seriously screwed up though. It almost seems like you copied the text out of Catch-22.

You can be exempted from combat air patrol if you are insane.
You need only request the doctor give you an exemption on the grounds of your insanity.
But if you ask the doctor to ground you, you can't possibly be insane.

That's the catch.
What catch?
Catch-22....

Can one get a job someplace menial long enough to grab an SSN?
Hell, can't the hospital hire you as a janitor or an orderly or a lackey, get you an SSN, and then you can get a license and become a nurse?

 

[Aves]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
EDIT: get another job that doesn't require an SSN first?

Exactly what I was thinking. It would suck for a while, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

Hope things get worked out quickly.

 

[Sealy]

I have a girlfriend who lives in L.A. but she wants to move up here to Vancouver, but she can't unless she has a job here. She can't get a job here unless she has a visa, she can't get a visa unless she has a job...blah blah blah. She's a special needs teacher and is seeing a guy here, guess she'll just have to get married to him! Dumb system!

 

[Sluggo]

To be a little more helpful.

All she need is a letter from an employer (your neighbor...named Jack) Your friendly neighbor Jack, or maybe Millineum *ahem* writes a letter saying that he has hired Mrs Skoorb to clean his home on a weekly basis (he can fire her after the first time she doesnt show up for work...the first time in this case) He signs the letter and has it notarized. Mrs Skoorb takes the letter to the local SS office and stands in long lines and pleads her case (with a few tears for good measure) to the surly employee. After being given the runaround for several hours, the surly employee will finally take mercy on her, and consider her gainfully employed by Millineum and issue her a SS card.

 

[PsychoAndy]

Originally posted by: Sluggo
To be a little more helpful.

All she need is a letter from an employer (your neighbor...named Jack) Your friendly neighbor Jack, or maybe Millineum *ahem* writes a letter saying that he has hired Mrs Skoorb to clean his home on a weekly basis (he can fire her after the first time she doesnt show up for work...the first time in this case) He signs the letter and has it notarized. Mrs Skoorb takes the letter to the local SS office and stands in long lines and pleads her case (with a few tears for good measure) to the surly employee. After being given the runaround for several hours, the surly employee will finally take mercy on her, and consider her gainfully employed by Millineum and issue her a SS card.

Plausible...yet still frigheningly bad. I like it.

Attention everyone: If this works, we are coining this act of getting a SSN in the U.S. "Pulling a Skoorb."

-PAB

 

[AmazonRasta]

I don't know if an SSN (social security number) in the USA is the same thing as an SIN (social insurance number) in Canada, but here you have to get your SIN card before you can even get a job. All you have to do is apply for it and they send it out to you. You can get all the certifications you want, but you still can't work (legitimately, of course (under-the-table is never a problem though - but who would want to deal with an under-the-table nurse?)) until you have your SIN.

/edit - Just realized that Skoorb (a fellow Canadian) is the creator of this thread. My reply was directed to him, but since he's Canadian I guess he knows all this stuff. So, all you Americans out there that don't know how the employment system (or unemployment when it comes to Newfies ) works in Canada, that's a brief and vague overview. BTW all you Canucks, if I'm missing anything, please add.

 

[StageLeft]

Sorry guys - Canadians (or anyone) can't get just "any job" and get work authorization. It's more involved. She can get a job only under certain guidelines like nursing, computer systems analyst, etc. She'd never get a TN visa as a house cleaner. Without a visa (given to her by INS at the border) she cannot get an SSN because SSA requires to see this real INS-issued visa which is only issued if employment is offered in specific positions.

Frankly I would feel fortunate that she even gets to practice nursing at all without having received her formal training here in the U.S.

Well Canadian nurses are generally trained better AFAIK but that's beside the point - she goes through a process adminstered by cgfns.org and they qualify her education as equivalent to the US so that's how it works.

amazon rasta SIN & SSN are the same thing. In the US as in Canada one needs an SSN to work legally. However if a person comes to the country to work it takes a couple of weeks to get an SSN and if they show their employer a receipt of application from SSA (social security administration) then legally they can start right away.

 

[Linflas]

Sounds like a nice catch 22. My wife was fortunate enough to not have to go through this since her passport was stamped for permanent resident status when she passed through the Champlaign border crossing. Despite that she did have a lot of trouble getting a job until she was finally sent her green card about 3 months after we were married. A lot of employers would not accept the stamp in her Canadian passport as proof of eligibility to work. Is there someway your wife can get the same type of "intent to employ" proof that you had to get when you moved here? You may need to tough it out and spend endless time on hold with the INS folks to try and find out what they suggest.

 

[rufruf44]

I'm assuming this is for Mrs.Skoorb ? Since she's already here and IIRC you already in your way in obtaining permanent residency, I can't imagine she still doesn't have a SSN ? She should be in H-4 visa class, which will entitled her to get a SSN, although there's a strong movement in the Social Security Administration to deny issuing a SSN (but thats a different story). But you're canadian, and I don't know if there's any difference in treating your case from other alien worker.

If the nurse candidate is outside the US, then the company that sponsor her will have to arrange for the H1-A visa first. After it has been issued she can come to the US ahead of the specified employment date (i think there's a specific range), get a SSN, and get certified. SSN process should not take more than a couple weeks (30 days).

 

[Mill]

That really sucks Skoorb. Maybe an immigration attorney could help. I am sure there are some around town that can probably deal with the SSA and INS to get her squared away. While it will cost at first, you may end up saving in the long run if she can get employment quicker than all the hassle you all have been going through. I don't know much about this type of stuff but I figured a lawyer would.

 

[Aves]

It think Millenium has it, the process seems pretty damn complicated and an immigration lawyer may be the only way to go about it.

Spending the money will certainly suck but there may not be an alternative.

 

[GasX]

Originally posted by: Millenium
That really sucks Skoorb. Maybe an immigration attorney could help. I am sure there are some around town that can probably deal with the SSA and INS to get her squared away. While it will cost at first, you may end up saving in the long run if she can get employment quicker than all the hassle you all have been going through. I don't know much about this type of stuff but I figured a lawyer would.

Alabama? Immigration Lawyers? Not a very busy practice...

 

[MomAndSkoorbaby]

ARGH! That's all I have to say....ARGH!

The hospitals here say they are "dying for Canadian trained nurses....because of your reputation and training..." yet the laws make this damn near impossible....


Sigh. :/

 

[Linflas]

Originally posted by: MrsSkoorb
ARGH! That's all I have to say....ARGH!

The hospitals here say they are "dying for Canadian trained nurses....because of your reputation and training..." yet the laws make this damn near impossible....


Sigh. :/

I feel for you guys. I imagine that the INS has gotten much more difficult to deal with these days especially after the few black eyes they have taken lately over some of their express visa practices. Since the hospitals are telling you that they want Canadian nurses do they not have any suggestions as to how you can go about solving this problem? There is no maze more complicated than one set up by government officials. Somewhere in this thread it was mentioned that there is a possibility that Skoorb may get permanent resident status? If that happens your problems should be over since you should be eligible as well by marriage.

 

[Red Dawn]

Get a job bagging groceries at Winn Dixie and when you get your SSN leave and go work for Robert E. Lee Memorial

 

[wyvrn]

The US is in severe shortage of qualified nurses, to they really need to get this problem worked out. I hope your situation gets resolved.

 

[Stark]

for a minute there i thought skoob's real name was actually gaylord focker.

 

[MomAndSkoorbaby]

Originally posted by: Stark
for a minute there i thought skoob's real name was actually gaylord focker.

HAHA. That's funny.

Unfortunately, the hospitals can do nothing. Trust me...we have explored pretty much every single angle.....

 

[Mill]

nm

 

[Garet Jax]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Get a job bagging groceries at Winn Dixie and when you get your SSN leave and go work for Robert E. Lee Memorial

It's not that easy. If Mrs. Skoorb gets a job bagging groceries and then goes to the INS to say "Hey I have a job, give me a SSN!". She is in effect saying "Hey, I have been working illegally and want you to give me an SSN to make it all legitimate!". This is a very bad idea and she could be subject to deportation.

The only way to get an SSN is to have a work visa. The only way to get a work visa is to have a job offer in hand. For Canadian and Mexicans they can get a TN. It is a lot more complex for other Nationalities: they have to go through the H1 visa process.

There used to be a loop hole where state agencies required SSN to give permits or licenses (Driver's licenses were the big ones, but nursing licenses are another one). The state agencies would write a letter basically saying they needed an SSN and this would be enough to get one. The US has closed this loop hole and no longer give out SSNs for this reason. Now you must have a work visa to get an SSN.

The state agencies had to modify their policies to give these licenses to people without SSNs. Their solution was to take a Tax ID number instead of the SSN. Every person in this country can get a Tax ID number because you can't pay taxes without one.

My suggestion is to get a Tax ID number and try to get someone to write a letter (from INS or similar) saying that Alabama can take the Tax ID instead of the SSN to transfer the nursing license. The other suggestion I have is to call the Canada/US border crossings for help. the people who answer the phones are the actual INS agents who work the border. Ask them questions and you will get answers directly from the horse's mouth so to speak.

Hope this helps.