Radeon 9700 Or NV30?

[DeathByDuke]

Help! In A Dilemma!
NV30 OR R300?
Hard question isn't it?
We don't know sod all about NV30, but we know R9700 can do over 120fps at 1024x768x32 in UT2003!
We Know R300 is a bloody beast of card and The Carmack is publicly in love with it!
ATi cards are always cheaper than nVidia's on release - but NV30 is likely to be faster and more framerate throwing than you could shake a stick at!

Now, my dear readers, WHICH ONE!!!

And please no suggestions of the Parhelia 512 getting 200% boost in next drivers - it's the Daikatana of hardware! :frown:

 

[funboy6942]

I have heard that in terms of speed the 9700 is just as fast as the ti4600 UNTILL you turn up all the toys then it just smokes it. So I would say it depends on what you want it to do. I love ATI card so I will most def be geting it but I am sure that when the nv30 comes out it will kill the ati with and with out the goddies turned up it just always happends that way between the two. It a circle that will never end between the two unless the 9700 can still kick ass when the nv30 is released, that would be a site to see.

 

[DeathByDuke]

Hmm, things just are confusing aren't they? I just wish the P10 and Kyro3 get released before they turn into Vaporware
(BitBoys OY stand up!) I love the idea of using the Pixel Shaders for Video processing of DVDs and AVI's - it just shows how programmable the new 2.0 format is. Does anyone reckon NV30 will be a hell of a lot more expensive? And what about NV28? I know its probably a o/c GF4 Ti - but surely it could match the 9700? - I love to choose ATi over nVidia for gaming and ot just for the All-In-Wonders
and DVD playback quality...

 

[AnAndAustin]

Well buying the top card is never a good idea as they devalue so quickly. However Rad9700 isn't officially out yet, I think they still haven't finalised the clock settings yet! However preliminary results show the Rad9700 is about 50% faster than GF4TI4600, and more than 200% when both cards use 4xAA and Aniso! nVidia's new card will be faster than Rad9700 (they won't release until it is), but I doubt it will beat it by much. The best advice is to wait (and I hardly ever say that), Rad9700 needs independent reviews of final retail boards before anybody parts with $400, and ATI will surely release a cut down or lower clocked Rad9700 priced about $150-200, even at half the speed this card could still do battle with Parhelia512 and GF4TI cards. Not only that but with ATI's new boy being so awesome it will encourage nVidia to release their new cards at lower prices. If you have to buy now then GF4TI4200-128MB are great cards, fantastic perf (o/c to 4400 or 4600 speeds) for $150 and should age better than any card currently out there, esp since nVidia won't be using the GF5 branding for this new card. If anybody needs a card right now then at $90 Rad8500LE and GF3 cards are great, at $150 GF4TI4200 cards are fantastic and for the perf orientated with $400 the Rad9700 is the clear winner. Check the other video forum posts to see what I mean.

 

[gennro]

NV30, it is supposed to use the Antialiasing that 3dfx uses (which is still better then any other video card has) with no framerate hits.
600 million polys a second
1ghz ddr II
400 mhz or faster core
built on the .13 micron process


it will own the r300 by far, nvidia beat 3dfx, why can't they put ati where they belong?

only time will tell..

 

[snow patrol]

The NV30 will absolutely whip the R300 I should think, but then again, it's going to be out much later than ATi's offering so you'd naturally expect it to.

 

[gururu]

If you are willing to wait for the nv30...wait. then you can decide with real world marks.
If you neeeeeeeed a card soon (like me!), then get a 9700 in three weeks.
or:
get a Ti200/Ti400 just to run UT2003. then get the best card in six months.
but if you wait 6 months, then the 10000 will soon be out, then you're screwed.

either way you can't win.

the less cynical (and more practical) side of me says. "buy 9700 fast, because the i845G is eating all the memory."

 

[AnAndAustin]

QUOTE snow patrol: "The NV30 will absolutely whip the R300 I should think, but then again, it's going to be out much later than ATi's offering so you'd naturally expect it to."

Well put snow patrol, it always tends to be a game of leap frog, but now that is one giant step that ATI have took, can nVidia beat it?

QUOTE gururu: "If you are willing to wait for the nv30...wait. then you can decide with real world marks."

It is important to remember even the Rad9700 hasn't completely proven itself yet with final retail cards and full independent reviews.

QUOTE AnAndAustin: "Well buying the top card is never a good idea as they devalue so quickly. However Rad9700 isn't officially out yet, I think they still haven't finalised the clock settings yet! However preliminary results show the Rad9700 is about 50% faster than GF4TI4600, and more than 200% when both cards use 4xAA and Aniso! nVidia's new card will be faster than Rad9700 (they won't release until it is), but I doubt it will beat it by much. The best advice is to wait (and I hardly ever say that), Rad9700 needs independent reviews of final retail boards before anybody parts with $400, and ATI will surely release a cut down or lower clocked Rad9700 priced about $150-200, even at half the speed this card could still do battle with Parhelia512 and GF4TI cards. Not only that but with ATI's new boy being so awesome it will encourage nVidia to release their new cards at lower prices. If you have to buy now then GF4TI4200-128MB are great cards, fantastic perf (o/c to 4400 or 4600 speeds) for $150 and should age better than any card currently out there, esp since nVidia won't be using the GF5 branding for this new card. If anybody needs a card right now then at $90 Rad8500LE and GF3 cards are great, at $150 GF4TI4200 cards are fantastic and for the perf orientated with $400 the Rad9700 is the clear winner. Check the other video forum posts to see what I mean. "

My thoughts exactly ... LOL!

 

[bunnyfubbles]

gennro, where'd you get those specs? Last I knew was that current specs for the NV30 are still supposed to be a secret

I don't see how so many people think the NV30 is going to burn the R300. I thought the R300 was being developed to compete with nVidia's next gen chip, the NV30, not the NV25. I think of the GF4 line as a bonus for nVidia, no more than a superfast string of GF3's and GF2's to tear appart the Radeon 8500/LE/7500 line. So far I haven't seen any specs that would imply the NV30 as greatly superior. Seems to me the NV30 is using bascially the same technology the R300 has only it is on a .13 micron process plus it will probably have a few extra "goodies" (rumors of nVblur, nVidia's version of glide and support for glide in older games, 3Dfx AA and what not...) that nVidia will throw in to try and promote their product. The only thing I think that could make the NV30 faster than the R300 would be if nVidia just gives the NV30 higher core and memory clocks which I dont doubt it will have. Am I missing some specs here? 512-bit memory interface or something? 200 million transistors? The last I charts I saw comparing the NV30, P10, Parhelia 512, and the R300... the way I saw the charts showed the NV30 with maybe a few slight advantages (not knowing the true core/mem speeds of either chip), and the NV30 wont be available until when? Later this fall or winter?

and if the Radeon 9700 does have 2.0 or 2.2ns DDR ram, that means it should be able to hit a 900-1000MHz memory a few months before the NV30 is even available.

No, I don't think the NV30 is all that big or bad. If it is and nVidia knew they weren't threatened by the Radeon 9700s very impressive performance, wouldn't they just release some of their specs? I would think that would scare off some potential 9700 buyers to go ahead and wait. Or do they have some serious work to do in order to make sure they at least release the NV30 in a state where it can just outperform the R300. nVidia simply fell behind ATI in R&D I think because of Microsoft and the XGPU, I forget exactly why but nVidia is now playing catch-up (and I don't doubt that they'll catch up )

You shouldn't even worry about buying a next gen card from ATI or nVidia right now, none are availble...

 

[bunnyfubbles]

and unless I win the contest ATI held for a chance to win a Radeon 9700, I doubt I will get myself a next gen board from ATI or nVidia until I know more of what it can do and I also find out some harder evidence as to what the NV30 is capable of. Right now it is guessing, and I hate to guess, especially when it involves my money

 

[Emultra]

I think 0.13 micron is not to be ignored.

 

[AnAndAustin]

Well I agree that the GF4 line is simply just suped up GF2 (GF4MX) and GF3 (GF4TI) technology, but it is still very good, esp that 4200 for what it costs.

As for the new nVidia card (or cards knowing nVidia), it seems pretty certain that it will use 0.13mu which should certainly enable higher clocks (GF4TI4600=300/650), DX9 implimenting 128bit colour, 10bit RGB, FP precision throughout, AGP8x, 512bit RAM bus (and from how efficient nVidia are with a 256bit bus that should be awesome) and quite possibly support for 3 monitors (wouldn't that really piss Matrox off LOL). Of course AMD should have got much better results with their 0.13mu T.bred, but didn't ... looks like we'll have to wait and see.

 

[sash1]

Because the NV30 card will be on the .13 fabrication process, its production cost will rise, because revamping chip fabrication increases price. FiringSquad said:

"Instead what we are given is a look at just what is possible with NV3x, and based on what we?ve seen so far it should match up very closely with ATI?s RADEON 9700."

But the 9700 will be arriving first, and should be marginally cheaper than the NV30.

~Aunix

 

[Bingo13]

Since we are talking about products not yet on the market, how about the BitBoys GL12000 Pro.

 

[AnAndAustin]

AunixP35, Developing the technology andf building the plants is expensive but the production costs of 0.13mu are MUCH smaller than 0.18mu and as such it will be much cheaper for nVidia to produce their 0.13mu NV30 than for ATI to produce their 0.15mu Rad9700, in any case ATI had all those costs when switching from 0.18mu Rad8500 to 0.15mu Rad9700 (IIRC) but 0.15mu isn't as good or as cheap to produce as 0.13mu. This would make things much better for nVidia, certainly in the long term, however as of NOW it has enabled ATI to get their product on the market first (if they hurry the F up).

 

[jbond04]

The NV30 will offer more programmability in the pixel shaders than the R300 (looping, branching, etc.), and will also sport a higher clock speed and memory speed. I think it will defeat the R300 by a sizeable margin. Not to mention nVIDIA's beautiful drivers.

 

[BFG10K]

The NV30 should be much faster and more expensive than the 9700 but it could also be many months after the 9700's release before it arrives.

However since neither card is available I think it's largely pointless to make a decision which card to get right now.

 

[DeathByDuke]

Now i'm confused!
NV30 is rumoured to be coming with about 32GB/sec of memory bandwidth!!! - OUCH!
And, to quote PC Gamer UK - "either ATi have sorted out thier delays or they know something about NV30 that we don't...."
Hmmm, gets you thinking doesn't it? After all a 3-6 month headstart is what 3Dfx gave to nVidia when the Voodoo5 started to cough - and that I reckon is what killed them. Oh, what the hell! We all like a bit of compettition don't we?

 

[ss284]

I see absolutely no value in this thread whatsoever. First thing, neither of the cards are out yet. 2nd thing, the scheduled released date for the nv 30 is anywhere from q4 2002 to q2 2003, which roughly equates to 3-9 months behind the r300. We all know that there is about a 6 month refresh for nvidia, and their refresh of the gf4 is due anytime now. The nv 30's launch date is far from now. The r300 will be out in about a month, and it will be the fastest card by a wide margin. And it will remain that way for some time before the nv 30 is released, which will most likely be within 6 months. I dont understand why you are attempting to compare the two cards when they are almost 6 months apart. Its obvious that the nv 30 will be faster than the r300, but what does that matter when you cant even buy the nv 30? The r300 will be most likely be unchallenged for the holiday season, and you know the people who buy top end cards will have r300s. When the nv 30 comes out, they will probably buy that.

This isnt a dillema as there isn't more than one choice. The r300 is the one you'll be able to buy within a month, the nv 30 is far from that. If you want the current, fastest vc, get the r300. We all know the street price of newly launched video cards is around 75% within a few weeks. The radeon 8500 was a bit more than 200 with a msrp of 300, and the gf3 was about 400 with a msrp of 600. The nv30 won't cost more than 500 dollars, because ATI will have something to cause competition.

Also, dont lower the Parhelia to the level of that garbage gamed titled daikatana. I dont think any currently released video card deserves that insult. At least the Parhelia has some redeeming features such as beautiful TV output, and tripple head. Plus, their multiple monitor software makes hydravision and nview look .... daikatana-esque.



-Steve

I'm getting both btw.

 

[GrimReefer]

Also, dont lower the Parhelia to the level of that garbage gamed titled daikatana. I dont think any currently released video card deserves that insult. At least the Parhelia has some redeeming features such as beautiful TV output, and tripple head. Plus, their multiple monitor software makes hydravision and nview look .... daikatana-esque.

woot! rootin for the underdawg!

the R300 is gonna be freakin amazing. I am so stoked. Nothing out atm will be able to shake a damn thing at this mofo. When NV30 is eventually rolled out, its gonna have a 6 month technology advantage so of course its gonna smoke this godly r300 like Michael Johnson.... but thats a little bit too far in the future for me to wait on pickin up the current demon....

btw, when is the R300 suppose to be released?

 

[JKing76]

I don't give a damn about underdogs, near-to-mid future releases, or fanboying for particular companies. All I care about is that, if what reviewers like Anandtech about the 9700 hold up, ATI finally has an insanely great gaming GPU to combine with their excellent image quality and, more importantly, absolutely top-of-the-line AIW system. And I indeed to take advantage of the best gaming card and the best TV support as soon as it's available.

 

[dfloyd]

AunixP35,

Its cheaper to make chips at .13 than it is at .18. It will balance out in the long run.

I myself am not excited by either chip..... yet.

I learned my lesson about buying cards with features that I cant use (Wait till you can use them and you usually get a faster, newer card or at least one that costs half as much).

When doom 3 / Unreal II is released then I will consider one of these cards. Until then I dont see any reason to buy one.

 

[tazdevl]

Originally posted by: AnAndAustin
AunixP35, Developing the technology andf building the plants is expensive but the production costs of 0.13mu are MUCH smaller than 0.18mu and as such it will be much cheaper for nVidia to produce their 0.13mu NV30 than for ATI to produce their 0.15mu Rad9700, in any case ATI had all those costs when switching from 0.18mu Rad8500 to 0.15mu Rad9700 (IIRC) but 0.15mu isn't as good or as cheap to produce as 0.13mu. This would make things much better for nVidia, certainly in the long term, however as of NOW it has enabled ATI to get their product on the market first (if they hurry the F up).

Couple of things to remember...

1) Neither nVIDIA or ATI has any fabs. They outsource their production to fabs such as TSMC or UMC. They focus on their core competency which is chip design and leave production to folks who are better at it.
2) .13 is a more economically viable alternative ONLY when yields are good. You produce more chips per platter which allows you to leverage economies of scale. The last number I heard was that TSMC's .13 yields were around 15%. If TSMC can't get the ball rolling nVIDIA will be in a position where they will not be able to meet demand. We, the consumer, end up getting screwed and paying $500 for a NV30 based card. The .15 process the R300 is being produced on is quite mature at this point and I would imagine from a cost standpoint, they will most likely be cheaper to manufacture for a short time.
3) One other thing some folks don't seem to realize... nVIDIA and ATI pay for the final product that meets their requirements... up front manfacturing costs are carried by the fabs.

As a few other folks have said... trying to figure out which card to buy and speculating on a product that won't be released for at least 3 more months is an exercise in futility, especially considering the fact that the NV30 specs have not officially been announced. I imagine both cards will be solid products, the question boils down to need and cost. Of course the NV30 is probably going to be faster... it will most likely run @ a faster clock speed with faster memory and be released later than the R300. That's the way the graphics market works.

If you need a faster card soon, get the R300. If you can wait.. wait until the NV30 is out and read a couple of reviews and buy the one that you feel best about.

I doubt the performance delta will be great enough to make a difference with current machines, especially considering that these two products will no longer be limiting performance... it will be the rest of your system. When a 3.5+ GHZ CPU hits the streets with PCI X, Hyperthreading, DDRII, SATA... then it might be time to upgrade again.

It will be interesting to see what Anand has to say about the NV30 after he clarifies his little blurb on the main page. His bias towards nVIDIA is clearly evident and has been for a couple years.

 

[tazdevl]

nm

 

[SSXeon5]

Well the 9700 will be $350 at launch, upgradesource.com said when they get em it will be that price. And they overprice so im guessing $330-320 for it a bit after launch. With 52fps @ 1600x1200x32 with 4xAA/16xAF Trilinear in UT2003 is amazing.

Radeon 9700 Pro

? ~335Mhz? Core Clock, ~320Mhz? Memory Clock
? 0.15-micron GPU
? 110+ million transistors
? 8 pixel rendering pipelines, 1 texture unit per pipeline, can do 16 textures per pass
? 4 programmable vect4 vertex shader pipelines
? 256-bit DDR memory bus
? 128MB of memory on board, clocked at over 300MHz (resulting in a minimum of 19.2GB/s of memory bandwidth)
? AGP 8X Support
? Full DX9 Pixel and Vertex Shader Support
? Single Full Speed 165MHz integrated TMDS transmitter

Price ~$350

Radeon 9500 Pro

? ~300Mhz? Core Clock, ~300Mhz? Memory Clock
? 0.15-micron GPU
? 110+ million transistors
? 4 pixel rendering pipelines, 1 texture unit per pipeline, can do 16 textures per pass
? 4 programmable vect4 vertex shader pipelines
? 256-bit DDR memory bus
? 128MB of memory on board, clocked at over 300MHz (resulting in a minimum of 19.2GB/s of memory bandwidth)
? AGP 8X Support
? Full DX9 Pixel and Vertex Shader Support
? Single Full Speed 165MHz integrated TMDS transmitter

Price ~$200

Im guessing on the speed of both, but the 9500 is rumored to have half the rendering pipelines as the 9700 to compete with the Ti4200/4400.

And Launch is Aug 19th! ONE MORE WEEK!!!!!

SSXeon