Apoppin, he started his conversation with you by politely asking you to take issues with his opinions rather than with him. I think that's a valid request.
You then tried provoking him again by saying "or what?" Then you say that since he's not complaining about R600 being late his words are doing nothing but clouding the issue "by default." That may be, but so is asking where the R600 is in a thread where no one truly knows, and then answering your own question with, "R600 isn't here. It's late. AMD is behind."
In addition, you first claim that he is "clouding the issue" by taking a different perspective than "OMG, R600 is late. WTF? AMD sux." Then you claim that all he can do is "attack the poster" when in reality that's all you've been doing.
So unless you can show me where he "attacked" you, I think it's safe to say that you're doing nothing but trolling.
You then tried provoking him again by saying "or what?" Then you say that since he's not complaining about R600 being late his words are doing nothing but clouding the issue "by default." That may be, but so is asking where the R600 is in a thread where no one truly knows, and then answering your own question with, "R600 isn't here. It's late. AMD is behind."
In addition, you first claim that he is "clouding the issue" by taking a different perspective than "OMG, R600 is late. WTF? AMD sux." Then you claim that all he can do is "attack the poster" when in reality that's all you've been doing.
So unless you can show me where he "attacked" you, I think it's safe to say that you're doing nothing but trolling.
blckgrffn
Diamond Member
SexyK - Mindshare is notoriously hard to judge, so while I definitely agree that high-end dominance has some serious perks, I'm again dubious that it's the high-end dominance of the 8800-series that has driven nVidia's chipset and mobile GPU sales. The vast majority of these products are not directly bought directly by consumers but through OEMs who, one would think, would have the good sense not to buy a product simply because another product from the same vendor is tops on the performance list. The x1900 series topped the 7900 in a lot of benchmarks but it didn't make the x1600's any more appealing.
I want you to understand that I do appreciate your point in general, but I need more than just the assertion that the 8800-series dominance is what drives OEMs to buy nVidia chipsets and mobile GPUs. I'm not at all trying to say that it has no impact. I'm really just trying to say that I think it has its biggest impact on a very small subset of nVidia's market, and that it's easy to overstate it's importance. If you've done any research on the subject on the web where nVidia's OEM customers talk about how the presence of the 8800 has affected their purchasing decisions, I'd genuinely love to see it. I'm always willing to be educated about how these businesses work.
From what I've observed however, very, very few people actively buy their own GPUs per se--the GPUs come with the PCs themselves. Most often, the decision as to what GPU options to give the consumer has already been made by the manufacturer. You get a few options from Dell, for example, that most buyers judge by the price of the card and the size of the memory buffer. As an aside, many of my friends don't even know the names of nVidia or ATI. Even when they're purchasing a system and selecting a card from one of them it just goes in one ear and out the other. They buy a computer from a major manufacturer like Dell that does what they need and, when it no longer does what they need, they buy a new one. Dell is looking at the best volume deal in several specific price segments in order to determine what to offer. If Dell tells them that a certain GPU is kick-arse, they believe it and buy it. They don't browse around on AT reading benchmarks.
On some level, I'm still aghast when I go to manufacturers like Gateway and still see 'gaming' computers being sold with x1950xt's. I've seen the benchmarks and I wouldn't buy one in a million years. Yet people still buy them because that's what they're offered by those big manufacturers. 3 out of 4 of Dell's XPS 710s have the default option as a 7900gs. In fact, it's not until to you select the system that has a base price of $2K that you get the option for an 8800-series.
The reason I mention this is merely to point out that I sincerely doubt that Dell's decision to offer a 7900gs has anything to do with the 8800's performance (or the battle between the 7900 and the x1900 series, per se). It most likely has everything to do with the price they could get for the 7900gs relative to the performance Dell thinks their customers will demand. Dropping $2000 on a computer that has a 7900gs seems imbecilic to me, but I've gotten interested in following the GPU benchmarks. Most of Dell's customers haven't. They merrily buy a $2K gaming rig with only a 7900gs and go their way.
As to the timing issue, you may very, very well be right. I don't know. Just like everyone else I'm speculating. I don't know how long after seeing R600 it will take nVidia to get new parts in the channel. I really don't. If they've already got parts manufactured ready to ship to their partners for final assembly, then you're clearly right, they'll be able to have parts in the channel nearly instantaneously.
Do you think that nVidia already has manufactured G80 refresh parts, or does it just not take but 20-30 days to get parts in the channel from start to finish? That's an honest question, I really want to know this. I don't have a great grasp of either company's manufacturing capacity or how their product cycles work.
It would just strike me as a bad idea for nVidia to have too many G80-refreshes already made when they don't know how R600 is going to perform. If they're banking on R600 only besting G80 by 15% and they target 10% over that for the G80 refresh but R600 comes in with a 35-40% improvement on the G80, then they would have a refresh already manufactured that wouldn't retake the crown.
At any rate, right or wrong, there's no need to 'bow down' to anyone. That's more my point than anything else. I'm not really posting because I want or need to be right. I'm posting because it's an interesting exercise to try and judge how the market will play out. If you're right (and you really, really might be), then you're right. It will be a little bit of a downer simply because it will mean a slightly increased chance that AMD will abandon the really high end GPU market because nVidia has kicked the crap out of them so consistently that they don't even want to compete any more. Great for nVidia, not so great for consumers as the cost to entering this market is pretty high. That's not to say that some other major player couldn't emerge.
If nVidia out-times AMD/ATI again, however, they clearly deserve all the business props in the world.
I'll just make two final observations and be on my way.
I'm not sure I completely agree with this. More because I don't think it's about 'cornering' the market for ATI. I think at this stage it's just about getting first dibs for once, even if it is ever so brief. Even if ATI had the best part out for the first 30 days of a major DX10 launch, that would be a step in the right direction for them. I guess I also think that having DX10 parts out right now is not really relevant. As someone else said, it's DX9 performance that is driving the 8800 sales. DX10 compatibility is really icing on the cake. I think both companies want to have the best DX10 parts available when people actually start upgrading their hardware because of DX10 games.
Just as a last point, I think the less sophisticated consumers (as I indicated above) have their choices made for them by the major manufacturers. I think you may be really talking about the less sophisticated performance buyers who follow the GPU market somewhat. The really savvy performance buyers are going to look at both benchmarks and choose the best price/performance ratio. The big manufacturers are going to choose the product that provides the best price in relation to the performance expected by their uneducated consumers.
In the end, I think the 7600's success wasn't because the 7800 had come out long before the x1800/x1900, creating positive mind-share, nor was it because the 7900 kicked the crap out of the x1900 (it didn't), it was really because the 7600 kicked the crud out of anything ATI had in that price range. It was a great, profitable, mid range part. The price/performance ratio hooked both the savvy performance crowd and the major manufacturers. nVidia could offer the 7600 cheaper than ATI could offer a comparable part.
Cheers and thanks for your thoughts.
Hey a quick post from me! [chuckle]
I think Apoppin is upset that in a P.S. to one of my posts I defended my 'blog' style posts by saying that I thought the business dealings of multi-billion dollar corporations deserved more than 50 words and 20 emoticons. He rightly interpreted that as a somewhat disparaging remark concerning the nature of his posts. If he is overly offended by that I certainly apologize, nor do I intend to do it again.
SexyK - after such a long post in response to your thoughts I'll just add (after seeing a later post of yours) that I don't mean to downplay the importance of being a market-leader (performance-leader) at all. I think it's indicative of how well nVidia has run their business that they're leading the market and that's always, always a good thing. I just wanted to suggest that being the market leader is more important sometimes than it is at others. There are 'critical' points where being the market leader at that point is more valuable than being the leader at other points. I think it's very important to be the market leader now (kudos to nVidia) but I think it is more important to be the market leader in a few months (which will probably again be nVidia, kudos to them).
Yes I'm stubborn, but I'm certainly not unreasonable!
I think Apoppin is upset that in a P.S. to one of my posts I defended my 'blog' style posts by saying that I thought the business dealings of multi-billion dollar corporations deserved more than 50 words and 20 emoticons. He rightly interpreted that as a somewhat disparaging remark concerning the nature of his posts. If he is overly offended by that I certainly apologize, nor do I intend to do it again.
SexyK - after such a long post in response to your thoughts I'll just add (after seeing a later post of yours) that I don't mean to downplay the importance of being a market-leader (performance-leader) at all. I think it's indicative of how well nVidia has run their business that they're leading the market and that's always, always a good thing. I just wanted to suggest that being the market leader is more important sometimes than it is at others. There are 'critical' points where being the market leader at that point is more valuable than being the leader at other points. I think it's very important to be the market leader now (kudos to nVidia) but I think it is more important to be the market leader in a few months (which will probably again be nVidia, kudos to them).
Yes I'm stubborn, but I'm certainly not unreasonable!
apoppin
Lifer
OK, back from work
{of course, i played Stalker first}
as usual your logic is faulty and your "analysis" is totally wrong ... it certainly isn't clearly "if .. then"
let's see what dreddfunk has to say for himself
--[thank-you that i didn't have to ReRead everything
]did you forget, Josh, i complained about his *tone* , lecturing me and 'talking down' to me?
--by the way ... who cares WtF *you* think? you certainly aren't adding anything of use to this discussion ... nor should you even be involved ... you are certainly no moderator
:thumbsdown:
i think you are trolling and trying to cause even more problems between members here ... why don't *you* butt out? :|
anyway, dreddfunk, i am quite sorry for my part in answering you in such a 'dismissive' way and for not taking your issues more 'seriously' and/or point by point. ...
i certainly don't see my posts as 'attacking' and if *you* took it that way - nevermind the trolling buttinskys - it was not my intention and i will again apologize and i will also attempt to 'restrain' myself toward your posts in the future.
palindrome
Senior member
- Jan 11, 2006
- 942
- 1
- 81
I certainly hope so
That way, after it's big brother comes out, I can buy the first edition for CHEAP, just like I did the x1800xt. Ati drivers FTW.
palindrome
Senior member
- Jan 11, 2006
- 942
- 1
- 81
But when the x1900xt's came out, the x1800xt was a BARGAIN for the performance you got! I think I got mine for like 270 or so Feb of '06
The R600 will come bundled with a free copy of DNF folks. This is the reason for the delay.
My prediction is the r600 will blow the g80 and it's refresh out of the water, but not until June. DX10 will never truly work on the g80. Now that I have all you Nvidia fans panties in a bundle, time to pick on ATI.
The R600 will be an over thirsty, bloated mess that nobody will want inside their case. It will be a card of extremes so poorly designed, that it will appear slapped together in a desperate bid to out do Nvidia.
My prediction is the r600 will blow the g80 and it's refresh out of the water, but not until June. DX10 will never truly work on the g80. Now that I have all you Nvidia fans panties in a bundle, time to pick on ATI.
The R600 will be an over thirsty, bloated mess that nobody will want inside their case. It will be a card of extremes so poorly designed, that it will appear slapped together in a desperate bid to out do Nvidia.
apoppin
Lifer
based on what? why june? and why will it beat the g80's refresh?
we don't have any DX10 games for the g80 to not work on
... and the R600 *may* be an over thirsty, bloated mess
BUT i *guarantee* that there are ATi fans on this forums who will buy it Day One ... and proudly roast the insides of their case - even IF it turns out to be worst case
Keysplayr
Elite Member
- Jan 16, 2003
- 21,219
- 55
- 91
I have no doubts that R600 will compete well or best G80 in raw performance. But not the refresh (G81).
And the R600 might be a bloated sack of protoplasm as some predict, but believe it or not, it will sell.
I am having mixed feelings about a G80 or R600 type upgrade for me. I'm thinking G84 ish on a nice quiet Core2Duo system.
I really don't game that much anymore. That may change later on.
Anyways, I am not surprised AMD didn't go 65nm with R600. TSMC is making these GPU's correct?
And the R600 might be a bloated sack of protoplasm as some predict, but believe it or not, it will sell.
I am having mixed feelings about a G80 or R600 type upgrade for me. I'm thinking G84 ish on a nice quiet Core2Duo system.
I really don't game that much anymore. That may change later on.
Anyways, I am not surprised AMD didn't go 65nm with R600. TSMC is making these GPU's correct?
5150Joker
Diamond Member
Build a Shuttle like me. I just spent a grand today buying a Shuttle SD37P2 V2, Core 2 Duo E6300 and 2 GB Corsair. Hopefully I can get this thing to run with my 8800 GTS.
Keysplayr
Elite Member
- Jan 16, 2003
- 21,219
- 55
- 91
Sounds like a nice compact setup, but that puppy is going to be loud. I had a shuttle when they first came out. Sooooooo loud and it was right in my face on my desk. I am sure they have improved them, but I actually have my PC in the next room. So I have a wall of insulation and sheetrock between me and the tower. This is somewhat inconvenient at times, but I have dead silence. I don't want to hear ANY fan noise anymore. The less white noise in my office the better.
apoppin
Lifer
forget core2Duo ... better check CPU forum ...
... it's already outdated
well ... almost
How long will a E6400@ 3.2GHZ "future proof" me for gaming?
Quad Core is where it is at [next year, not now - it's hot and expensive]:
:thumbsup:
Supreme Commander Uses *all* 4 Cores - is your Dual Core enough?
and yes, TSMC ...
... probably 65nm for the r660
see i didn't say r600 is ....
*cough*
You also said that his "job" was to "cloud the issue" when it was nothing more than his *opinion* being voiced in a *hobby*.
Please, do you mean to tell me that through all of your vivid quarrels with the likes of Rollo, Gstanfor, etc. that you are now complaining about something as subtle as "tone?"
:Q
And if "tone" is really a bother to you, perhaps you should reanalyze the kind you gave dred earlier in the thread. (It's pretty easy to spot, just look between all of your smilies on page 4).
Disclaimer: The above comment carries an insulting tone that Apoppin probably won't like.
His somewhat offensive "tone" wasn't meant to be offensive as he has stated, yet even if it were meant to be, it was completely valid given the way you were provoking him earlier.
Who doesn't? We can play the "who cares" game all day, but just because you don't care doesn't mean you have to read anything from me, much less respond to it.
Agreed. Asking you questions adds the same amount to this thread as you asking everyone where R600 is. (This is just funner and more sensible, snice I have a greater chance of getting a response from you than you do an AMD rep.)
No, I certainly shouldn't be involved. After all, that would only add to more opinions that differ from your own. Certainly don't want that...
No where have I said I *was* a moderator, I'm just another member asking you to support what you've said, and *you* haven't even done that. Dred had to do it *for* you.
Who's trying to act like the Mod again? Perhaps next time before I post I'll ask you if it's okay. Sorry for the trespass, I thought I could do that on an open forum...
When did you become a Mod or even, at the least, the OP for this thread?
:thumbsup:
Then why even apologize? Why not further explain what you meant? If they weren't offensive, surely that would be an easy thing to do. It might also let you voice more thoroughly what you were trying to say, and what we all must have just "misread."
apoppin
Lifer
again ... who really cares what *you* think? ... you should not be involved [period] :|
and i certainly don't have to explain myself to *you* after dreddfunk and i already settled our differences.
i apologize because it is civil and the right thing to do .. nevermind "fault"
how are you "special" again? ... i missed that when i signed up
:thumbsdown:
you are trolling
and i certainly don't have to explain myself to *you* after dreddfunk and i already settled our differences.
i apologize because it is civil and the right thing to do .. nevermind "fault"
how are you "special" again? ... i missed that when i signed up
:thumbsdown:
you are trolling
apoppin
Lifer
i still do and that 'emoticon thing' has always been
so ... what is the problem ?
really
i get a little testy with dreddfunk who dissed me ... we trade a few public barbs and then 'settle it' with mutual apologies and a new understanding
how is it that anyone else should be involved?
apoppin
Lifer
5150Joker
Diamond Member
They definitely must have improved since then because this thing is nearly as quiet as my WC'd desktop. It even has overclocking options built into the bios which was a nice surprise.
Cookie Monster
Diamond Member
- May 7, 2005
- 5,161
- 32
- 86
blckgrffn
Diamond Member
I think the real shame is that by being late ATI/AMD has enabled nvidia to hold their hand longer and keep selling us the 79 & 76 series cards...
Let's hope the mid range battle is more interesting this time around. The latest run was definitely boring, nvidia all day long in the sub $150 market...
The fiance is going to need a new video card soon for when I buy her a 24" monitor, yet I haven't seen anything that provides as much value as her x850xt, which could probably push Guild Wars at that resolution.
Let's hope the mid range battle is more interesting this time around. The latest run was definitely boring, nvidia all day long in the sub $150 market...
The fiance is going to need a new video card soon for when I buy her a 24" monitor, yet I haven't seen anything that provides as much value as her x850xt, which could probably push Guild Wars at that resolution.
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