Discussion Quo vadis Apple Macs - Intel, AMD and/or ARM CPUs? ARM it is!

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moinmoin

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Jun 1, 2017
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Due to popular demand I thought somebody should start a proper thread on this pervasive topic. So why not do it myself? ;)

For nearly a decade now Apple has treated their line of Mac laptops, AIOs and Pro workstations more of a stepchild. Their iOS line of products have surpassed it in market size and profit. Their dedicated Mac hardware group was dissolved. Hardware and software updates has been lackluster.

But for Intel Apple clearly is still a major customer, still offering custom chips not to be had outside of Apple products. Clearly Intel is eager to at all costs keep Apple as a major showcase customer.

On the high end of performance Apple's few efforts to create technological impressive products using Intel parts increasingly fall flat. The 3rd gen of MacPros going up to 28 cores could have wowed the audience in earlier years, but when launched in 2019 it already faced 32 core Threadripper/Epyc parts, with 64 core updates of them already on the horizon. A similar fate appears to be coming for the laptops as well, with Ryzen Mobile 4000 besting comparable Intel solutions across the board, with run of the mill OEMs bound to surpass Apple products in battery life. A switch to AMD shouldn't even be a big step considering Apple already has a close work relationship with them, sourcing custom GPUs from them like they do with CPUs from Intel.

On the low end Apple is pushing iPadOS into becoming a workable mutitasking system, with decent keyboard and, most recently, mouse support. Considering the much bigger audience familiar with the iOS mobile interface and App Store, it may make sense to eventually offer a laptop form factor using the already tweaked iPadOS.

By the look of all things Apple Mac products are due to continue stagnating. But just like for Intel, the status quo for Mac products feels increasingly untenable.
 
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dmens

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and why Apple have gone back to IMG Tec.

While we're on the subject of IMG Tec, let's just linger there a little on your chosen pedestal of heavenly IT glory, and their particular actions concerning this relatively tiny company.

Here is Apple. A truly giant, trillion dollar valued corporation sweating pennies in royalties paid to a tiny company that they could buy and sell a hundred times over considering their yearly profits - sweating so bad that they purposely devalued it to the point that it had to be bailed out by a Chinese backed venture capital fund, and only then renewed their IP licensing when the company leadership was likely desperate to make a deal, hoping to get IMG Tec's RT acceleration IP for dirt cheap during the new RT gold rush.

LOL. You have no idea what you talking about.
 

Tup3x

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I wonder if Apple is planning to make docking solutions for their phones and tablets in the future... They'd need to combine iOS and MacOS but the hardware isn't a problem anymore. Phone would have more than enough power to handle basic office tasks and web surfing.
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
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I wonder if Apple is planning to make docking solutions for their phones and tablets in the future... They'd need to combine iOS and MacOS but the hardware isn't a problem anymore. Phone would have more than enough power to handle basic office tasks and web surfing.

Apple of course wants people to buy iPhones AND an iPad AND a MBP. That alone makes it in their best interest to not do docking. But they will do just about everything else, including encouraging developers to make apps work on both interfaces.
 

soresu

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Dec 19, 2014
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While this patent means that such a product is possible, it is not necessarily likely to be brought to market.

Even major Android vendors haven't taken this angle seriously because it is a clunky solution at best - and Apple are nothing if not style first, this just feels too clunky for something that Apple would go for in practice.
 
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Eug

Lifer
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While this patent means that such a product is possible, it is not necessarily likely to be brought.

Even major Android vendors haven't taken this angle seriously because it is a clunky solution at best - and Apple are nothing if not style first, this just feels too clunky for something that Apple would go for in practice.
I don’t think Apple will do it with the iPhone either but they have already effectively done it with the iPad. It’s not macOS but a mature iPadOS with Magic Trackpad that is basically a docking system with keyboard and trackpad. The iPad just clicks in by magnets and becomes a screen, or you can just lift it off for it to become a bare tablet again. Even the entry level iPad 7 has a full-size keyboard solution now, that you can click on and off at will.

I have an iPad Pro 10.5” (2017) with Apple Smart Keyboard (no trackpad) and a 2017 MacBook 12” and I use the iPad Pro 95% of the time these days. However, that’s partially because I have an iMac at home so I have no use for a MacBook at home.
 

soresu

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Dec 19, 2014
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I don’t think Apple will do it with the iPhone either but they have already effectively done it with the iPad. It’s not macOS but a mature iPadOS with Magic Trackpad that is basically a docking system with keyboard and trackpad. The iPad just clicks in by magnets and becomes a screen, or you can just lift it off for it to become a bare tablet again. Even the entry level iPad 7 has a full-size keyboard solution now, that you can click on and off at will.
Ah that's different, the keyboard/trackpad being just a bare accessory (with an admittedly nice dock method) rather than a full blown dock as in the patent, or those lapdock things for Android phones.
 

Tup3x

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Ah that's different, the keyboard/trackpad being just a bare accessory (with an admittedly nice dock method) rather than a full blown dock as in the patent, or those lapdock things for Android phones.
The real reason is the software. Android software just aren't meant for mouse use (my P30 has desktop mode but there's really not much point in using that mode). If Apple would provide full MacOS experience when connected to separate display with keyboard and mouse (or some kind of laptop dock), it would actually be useful.

I must admit that it's my dream that some day my phone would have enough power so that I could just keep a dock at work and at home. I don't like commuting with laptop in my backpack...

Maybe some day... :pensive:
 

soresu

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Dec 19, 2014
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I must admit that it's my dream that some day my phone would have enough power so that I could just keep a dock at work and at home. I don't like commuting with laptop in my backpack...
You can do that already for a lot of work with even something relatively old like A72.

The actual CPU cores in flagship phones are more than capable of doing much of the work people do today given an unrestrained power supply through docking - albeit maybe thermally not the greatest idea to have them running full tilt for great lengths of time without a larger heatsink.

This is why I am patiently waiting for an RK3588 or Amlogic S908X board, though COVID seems to be slowed their release somewhat.
 

Doug S

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Feb 8, 2020
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I wonder if Apple is planning to make docking solutions for their phones and tablets in the future... They'd need to combine iOS and MacOS but the hardware isn't a problem anymore. Phone would have more than enough power to handle basic office tasks and web surfing.

I think its possible but only they can run the numbers internally to see if they work. It would obviously cost some Mac sales but it would likely greatly increase the macOS userbase even if there were fewer actual Macs sold. I've suggested Apple might do something like this for years, even before Continuum and whatever Samsung calls their version of it came out. It is a pretty obvious idea once phone SoCs are fast enough which they have been for a while now, but really needs macOS to run on ARM64 first so it hasn't really been feasible before.

They wouldn't need to combine iOS and macOS, they just need to make an macOS "app" can run that runs the full macOS GUI and has all the libraries and APIs available to it so every ARM Mac application can run on it. Have a little breakout Lightning cable that includes an HDMI port and a few USB ports for keyboard/mouse and a USB stick for when you need old fashioned 'sneakernet' data sharing. The cable would come with a personal/educational license to download/run the macOS app on your iPhone, paying extra for a commercial license to run in a business setting.

This would be great for a lot of light PC users. Use the TV you already have as a monitor then a keyboard/mouse would be all you need turn your phone into a full fledged desktop computer able to run software that doesn't translate well to a small screen like word processing, spreadsheets, tax prep, etc. Most people already have a keyboard/mouse lying around from an old PC so other than the cost of the dongle it would basically be free for personal use.

Think of all the college students who have an iPhone but don't have a Mac who would become Mac users and potential customers in the future. Imagine you're taking a business trip, and instead of bringing a laptop bag you only need to bring your Lightning dongle because you can rely on being able to check out a keyboard/mouse from the hotel's business center and hook it up to your room's TV. When you visit an office the next day they have hot desks with monitor/keyboard/mouse you can connect to.

Microsoft could have really benefitted from this if they hadn't bungled Windows Phone and Intel hadn't bungled mobile x86. Microsoft doesn't have any PC business to cut into like Apple does, so it would be a no-brainer slam dunk for them. I guess that's probably why they introduced Continuum, they'd probably been working on it for years assuming Windows Phone running on x86 SoCs would be around for it when it was complete, and didn't want to waste all that effort.

The big question is whether the numbers work for Apple since unlike Microsoft they would be cutting their own throat to some extent. Obviously it reduces Mac sales among current macOS users as some will find this capability good enough for their needs. Will the growth in the macOS platform from the infusion of all the new users result in enough future sales to make it worth it? Or does it make the Mac even more of a niche product, and go from 5% to 2% of the PC market long term?
 

mikegg

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Jan 30, 2010
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Nr 3 is only your speculation. Not a fact, unless you have insider information.

Apple moving to ARM Macs will start happening the moment when they will port Final Cut Pro X and Logic Pro to iPads. Not before. So far it hasn't happened, and yet - everybody says that it is a done deal that Apple is moving to ARM on Macs.
Apparently you didn't read the thread title. We are, in fact, discussing exactly what I posted about.
Glo. already pointed out the fallacy of No. 3.
As to No. 4


Kuo 'believes' - it doesn't say that Kuo 'knows'? It's a research note and, almost certainly, has a caveat that this note is speculative and bears certain risks. Maybe he's right, maybe not. We do not have any concrete information at this time.
We don't even have leaks of engineering prototypes - nothing concrete at all, AFAIK.

If you have any proof of your claims, please post them. I'm quite fine with being proved wrong on the basis of facts.
The biggest logical fallacy that people genuinely believe, that is true, about Apple porting Macs to ARM is very simple.

They are making ARM Software run on x86 architecture, not the other way around. If they would be moving Macs from x86 to ARM shouldn't they do exactly the latter: already announce option for porting x86 Apps to ARM?

ARM Macs are not going to be the same as MacBook Air/Pro, and iMac Pro/Mac Pro.

ARM Macs will be like Apple TV, that has Screen, keyboard, and access to all of Apple most important services: Apple Arcade, Apple Music, Apple TV. There was a rumor some time ago that Apple would release a Mac targeted towards gamers.

What is the biggest Gaming platform in Apple ecosystem? Yeah... I can easily see AppleTV-like box that can easily work both like Mac or... Gaming Console.

It is 100% relevant. Because if Apple will not port FCPX and Logic Pro to iPads - they are NOT MOVING THEIR MACS TO ARM! Its that simple. That is not how Apple works, and how Apple does things. Apple's third biggest revenue stream is rapidly becoming Services. Logic Pro is used by hundreds of thousands of musicians which are posting their music in Apple Services. Apple designed Mac Pro, and FCPX specifically for people that are in Apple ecosystem for Video Production, mainly because they want people that use AppleTV Services to also produce their films on Macs.

Apple hasn't ported both of those Apps for simple reason. There is not enough performance in ARM CPUs. Remember - porting all of their platforms to ARM would be justifiable only if it would give performance benefits for people who need this, not just toys on which they can watch Youtube.
Interesting takes here...
 

mikegg

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Jan 30, 2010
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Apple is releasing two, maybe three ARM based computers, for people who do not need that sheer horsepower. They are releasing entry level products in the main product categories: iMac(desktop), MacBook(Laptop). Both will be passively cooled(how cool passively cooled iMac is?! [sorry, I had to...]).

But the x86 will not be replaced by ARM in Apple cosystem, fully. x86 will have its place in Apple ecosystem, and in computing in general.
Ouch
 

mikegg

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Jan 30, 2010
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Haha. So the guy, who brings you the topic of Apple releasing ARM based computer and a laptop is suddenly also wrong on the topic of Apple being required to use more cores to compete with Intel, because Apple designs are not powerful enough.

If that is the case, that Gurman is wrong, he is Also wrong on the topic of Apple switching from Intel to their own ARM chips ;).

Jesus. This is getting ridiculous.
This post is ridiculous.
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
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The biggest logical fallacy that people genuinely believe, that is true, about Apple porting Macs to ARM is very simple.

They are making ARM Software run on x86 architecture, not the other way around. If they would be moving Macs from x86 to ARM shouldn't they do exactly the latter: already announce option for porting x86 Apps to ARM?

ARM Macs are not going to be the same as MacBook Air/Pro, and iMac Pro/Mac Pro.

ARM Macs will be like Apple TV, that has Screen, keyboard, and access to all of Apple most important services: Apple Arcade, Apple Music, Apple TV. There was a rumor some time ago that Apple would release a Mac targeted towards gamers.

What is the biggest Gaming platform in Apple ecosystem? Yeah... I can easily see AppleTV-like box that can easily work both like Mac or... Gaming Console.
I meant desktop Safari which is obviously still x86. It shouldn't be too hard to port it over to ARM given that it's been ARM-compatible since the first iPhone.

I'm sure Apple will switch to ARM. It's no longer debatable. Having apps work seamlessly between iOS, iPadOS, and MacOS is far more important to Apple than not pissing off a portion of their Mac userbase.

But how would I know exactly when they'll port Final Cut Prox and Logic Pro to ARM? Doesn't seem relevant.
It is 100% relevant. Because if Apple will not port FCPX and Logic Pro to iPads - they are NOT MOVING THEIR MACS TO ARM! Its that simple. That is not how Apple works, and how Apple does things. Apple's third biggest revenue stream is rapidly becoming Services. Logic Pro is used by hundreds of thousands of musicians which are posting their music in Apple Services. Apple designed Mac Pro, and FCPX specifically for people that are in Apple ecosystem for Video Production, mainly because they want people that use AppleTV Services to also produce their films on Macs.

Apple hasn't ported both of those Apps for simple reason. There is not enough performance in ARM CPUs. Remember - porting all of their platforms to ARM would be justifiable only if it would give performance benefits for people who need this, not just toys on which they can watch Youtube.
 
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Glo.

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When will it happen? Kuo reported that it will start happening in 2021.

When will they move all of their computers over? No one knows. I did speculate here: https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...tel-amd-and-or-arm-cpus.2579341/post-40130536
Its not what I asked about. Bad deflection of the question. Im glad that you admit, you don't know, that it will happen, only you speculate.
I don't understand this port.

In Xcode, Apple has done major work to make it extremely easy to ship your app for ARM or x86. It's often as easy as selecting a different option from the dropdown. Source: I'm a software developer.
You do realize that Apple has started a program that is allowing iOS Apps be run on x86 systems that have MacOS installed?

Not the other way around which would indicate that they are moving Macs to ARM, from top-to-bottom.
Yes. I think that's the point of switch to ARM.
Then, it means they are no longer Macs. In Apple design language: form defines function.
You don't know what performance looks like for an Apple-designed chip running at 45w or 90w and with a fan blowing over it.
You do not know also whether Apple actually CAN do this and scale their designs to those Thermal Envelopes, without losing IPC, and scaled performance. And if at those thermal Envelopes, those ARM chips would actually be faster than x86 CPUs.

Apple is releasing ARM based Macs, a laptop and desktop. That is sure. But they won't switch their entire lineup to ARM, from top-to-bottom. There is way too many struggles to overcome, especially considering they have already large ARM-user base in iOS. And there is way too many clues for which it won't happen: Lack of FCPX and Logic Pro ports to ARM, program that allows iOS Apps to be run on x86, not hte other way around, etc...

iOS Apps are not the same as x86, and Apple x86 computers are not the same as ARM. Once again, in Apple design language: Form defines function.
 

Glo.

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Apr 25, 2015
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Ok. It seems like you're finally convinced that Apple is switching to ARM based Macs.

I think we're done here.
Apple is not switching Macs to ARM. Don't manipulate my words to fit your agenda. It only shows your toxicity in discussion, when faced with point of view that is not fitting yours.

There is a difference in releasing Mac that is powered by ARM, and Switching their whole lineup to ARM. Which is why I asked you about switching from top-to bottom, porting Logic Pro and FCPX to ARM/iOS.

Apple will release ARM based Macs? Yes. Will Mac Pro, iMac, iMac Pro, Mac Mini, MacBook Air, MacBook Pro be updated with ARM CPUs in upcoming future? No.
 

eek2121

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You guys can debate this all day. Right now the evidence suggests nothing is changing. Speculation is all well and fine, but until I see Xcode or Final Cut Pro on an iPad, I seriously doubt we will see a Mac with an ARM design. Assuming 30% overhead for an x86 emulator, that would set Apple back drastically from a performance standpoint.

I strongly suspect the iPad Pro is Apple’s way of toying with an x86 replacement. The macOS itself has a better chance of going away than x86 does.

So now that I'm at my desktop, I wanted to provide a bit more context around my thinking.

First, there have been zero leaks or credible rumors to indicate a move to ARM for Apple. If anything, it's the opposite. New betas of the macOS continue to indicate support for future x86 CPUs. Apple has also increased it's wafer orders for iPad SoCs, but there is currently no publicly available evidence of TSMC fabbing a new SoC for an undefined device. Furthermore, TSMC is at capacity currently. There is no way Apple could switch to ARM and have it come off without a hitch. They can't even switch to AMD and have it come off without a hitch.

Second, all of Apple's actions thus far indicate a strong desire to bolster the macOS ecosystem. For example, the ability to run iOS apps on the macOS, the ability to port iOS apps to the macOS fairly easily, etc.

Third, I seem to recall that Apple has a contract with Intel until 2022. I would have to dig up the source for that.

Fourth, I know certain industry partners that would have knowledge of stuff like this, and none of them are aware of anything.
 
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Glo.

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Apr 25, 2015
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You guys can debate this all day. Right now the evidence suggests nothing is changing. Speculation is all well and fine, but until I see Xcode or Final Cut Pro on an iPad, I seriously doubt we will see a Mac with an ARM design. Assuming 30% overhead for an x86 emulator, that would set Apple back drastically from a performance standpoint.

I strongly suspect the iPad Pro is Apple’s way of toying with an x86 replacement. The macOS itself has a better chance of going away than x86 does.

So now that I'm at my desktop, I wanted to provide a bit more context around my thinking.

First, there have been zero leaks or credible rumors to indicate a move to ARM for Apple. If anything, it's the opposite. New betas of the macOS continue to indicate support for future x86 CPUs. Apple has also increased it's wafer orders for iPad SoCs, but there is currently no publicly available evidence of TSMC fabbing a new SoC for an undefined device. Furthermore, TSMC is at capacity currently. There is no way Apple could switch to ARM and have it come off without a hitch. They can't even switch to AMD and have it come off without a hitch.

Second, all of Apple's actions thus far indicate a strong desire to bolster the macOS ecosystem. For example, the ability to run iOS apps on the macOS, the ability to port iOS apps to the macOS fairly easily, etc.

Third, I seem to recall that Apple has a contract with Intel until 2022. I would have to dig up the source for that.

Fourth, I know certain industry partners that would have knowledge of stuff like this, and none of them are aware of anything.
Apple is releasing two computers that have ARM chips, according to Kuo. A laptop and a desktop.

But releasing two computers does not equate to switch to ARM completely, top to bottom. Whats more as I have been saying all along this thread, and many threads on Macrumors: ARM based Mac is a competitor to Chromebooks.

Basic, web browsing machines that can install Apps from iOS: like Youtube, Twitter, run iOS games, give access to Apple services: Music, TV, and to Apple ecosystem of Apps.

It does not mean that Mac Pro, iMac Pro, iMac, MacBook Pros will get ARM based CPUs.

And last bit, to all of ARM-based-Mac-Supporters, read this, on this topic from Jean-Louis Gassee who was one of Apple executives during the late 80's:
 

amrnuke

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I use Sketch for work which is not available on Windows. MacOS supports every piece of software I need, while Windows does not. Of course, everyone is different.

As someone who does use a Mac, I have plenty of reasons to care about them.
Sketch is x86 program requiring Mojave, to port it over to iOS / ARM or whatever new macOS / ARM they're creating may go smoothly, may go poorly. We all remember Rosetta, right?

It may be the case that you're stuck on an x86 version of macOS for a while unless the transition goes smoothly.

I certainly hope that's not the case - the last thing we need in this arms race is for one side to falter.

Apple's success in laptops and desktops is all of our success, IMO, because it'll push AMD, Intel even harder.

Apple have the money to make this work, but I don't know that they have the multi-threaded experience at this point.

Have we heard about many hires or transfers of AMD / Intel people into Apple who could be helping out with such development?
 

Glo.

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Apr 25, 2015
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IMO, this will not happen.

They need to migrate everything to ARM in +- 1 years with a SoC that outperforms existing stuff but a large margin for companies to have a reason to upgrade. Edit: If not, a lot of companies would have fragmented ecosystems and that's a big issue.

If I had to guess, I would say they will release a faster iPad with an attached flip-keyboard and call it iPad Flip/Go/Whatever ... and kill the Chromebook market :p
This is EXACTLY what is happening. 12 core SoC that is ARM based will be lower in performance than ULV x86 chips from MacBook Air and MacBook Pro. Here is the killing of the hopes and dreams of those believing ARM will soon replace x86 everywhere.

From 7:23. Direct quote from the horses mouth:
Marc Gurman says that Apple is developing multiple chips, that are slated for Entry Level, 12 inch MacBook, BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT SOPHISTICATED ENOUGH TO COMPETE WITH INTEL

The same Marc Gurman, who reported this said that those ARM chips have 8 large cores, and 4 efficiency cores.

Apple is not moving their whole lineup to ARM. They are developing seperate lineup of desktop computers, that are ARM based. Those computers will be MacBook and Entry level iMac.

At this very point its abundantly clear what is going to happen.
 

Glo.

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Apr 25, 2015
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Huh? What are you smoking to falsely believe that the x86 chips in the Macbook Air are faster than Apple's phone SoCs? Not sure what the current chip is in the Macbook Pro and how exactly it compares to the A13 cores on a single threaded basis, but if it is behind it is by a single digit percentage. The A13 easily beats the CPU in the Air.

Having 8 cores means it could match or exceed any mobile x86 CPU in multithreaded code as well.
Let me melt people's minds even more. Straight from the horses mouth, which is Mark Gurman who brought the news about ARM Macs.

"The transition to in-house Apple processor designs would likely begin with a new laptop because the company’s first custom Mac chips won’t be able to rival the performance Intel provides for high-end MacBook Pros, iMacs and the Mac Pro desktop computer. "
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...sell-macs-with-its-own-chips-starting-in-2021 11th paragraph of their analysis.

So basically, according to even Apple themselves, those ARM cores are not fast enough to compete with Intel x86 CPUs.

And Gurman then goes on and talks about how Apple wants to tackle competition with Intel.

"By doubling or quadrupling the amount of cores Intel offers."

So, no guys. Put your hopes and dreams down. ARM is not faster than x86, even if some people on this forum claim otherwise.

Yeah, 8 ARM cores blowing away 8 x86 cores. Kek.
 
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Glo.

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Apr 25, 2015
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Neoverse N1 is keeping up with Cascade Lake pretty well and Apple's cores are wider. I think the "won't rival" comment has more to do with burst frequency and 3rd-party software optimization than IPC.
Can you show me an application that uses SPEC for Transcoding, video editing, photography, or sound work?

Or its not "real world application"?

It only keeps up in SPEC. Not Photoshop, not DaVinci Resolve, not Logic Pro, not Final Cut Pro X, not Blender. Which should be the MAIN focus of all of the reviews.