Quick: What is "Seperation of Church and State" all about?

Oct 9, 1999
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I need to use it as part of my speech class. ... so far I have got conflicting ideas.. can someone clear it up in layman terms.

from what I understand its not to allow other religions to thrive in our schools?? am i right?
 

CTho9305

Elite Member
Jul 26, 2000
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so the govt doesn't force one religion, or oppress religion/etc.
banning prayer in schools would be oppression, as would forcing/endorcing it.
 

Tauren

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Jan 30, 2001
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"Congress shall make no law respecting a establishment of religion..."

It's in the constitution.
 

Tauren

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2001
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Exact verbiage:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.



It is supposed to keep religion out of government policies and decisions.
 

Dedpuhl

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
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It is supposed to keep religion out of government policies and decisions.


"When religion ruled the world it was called the Dark Ages"

 

KokomoGST

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Nov 13, 2001
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Actually, the intention of the amendment was originally to protect freedom of religion (state meddling in church) as much as to prevent the church in the state (a la the Vatican of previous time).

Modern day interpretation has taken to a bit further than the original intentions of some of the founders. Most of the contention with "the church" in schools is that some people think it's wrong to spend tax money to support groups involved in or linked to a religious org. Which IMHO is fine, but some go so far as to say they can't assemble on school grounds. What about "right of the people peaceably to assemble"? Tis a tricky subject.
 

rahvin

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Oct 10, 1999
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Unless I'm mistaken the phrase "Seperation of Church and state" is a quote from a paper Jefferson wrote the virginian legislature when they tried endorse a religion. He said a wall should be erected to seperate church and state, those words were then used in the supreme court decision.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
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Layman terms:
1) Government cannot force you to be a part of any religion.
2) Government cannot force (or even encourage) you to practice a different religion/different rituals.

Example of (1):
A public school cannot force you to pray at school or at school sponsored events. Note: a student at school CAN pray, and students at school CAN pray in groups (even out loud). The only restriction is that the prayers aren't forced or led by any government employee (teachers, coaches, principles, school sponsored non-student speakers, etc.)

Example of (2): Government cannot provide money to groups that go out and actively push their religion on other people. No government funded groups can hand out bibles on street corners (attempts to switch people to Christian faith), or shout Islamic prayers at city council meetings (attempts to switch people to Islamic faith). In fact, if you want to practice satanic rituals, the government cannot force you to change your rituals. This goes as far as allowing your faith to break laws that other religions cannot break (alchol for minors in Christian churches, peyote for Native Americans, etc.) as long as these are minor laws (murders will never be allowed).
 

JupiterJones

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Jun 14, 2001
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The term comes from a letter by Thomas Jefferson where he says the Establishment Clause is designed to build a "wall of separation between church and state". The original intention was to keep the government out of religion. Notice what the words actually say, "Congress shall make no law....."

This has been perverted by liberal judges who abuse the power of the bench to forward an agenda. There really isn't any relationship between congress making a law respecting the establishment of religion and a school teacher in Louisiana having a Bible on her desk.


Don
 

Amused

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Apr 14, 2001
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<< I need to use it as part of my speech class. ... so far I have got conflicting ideas.. can someone clear it up in layman terms.

from what I understand its not to allow other religions to thrive in our schools?? am i right?
>>



Separation of church and state goes beyond schools. In fact, when the First Amendment was written, public schools weren't even thought of.

The concept is meant to keep government religiously neutral, to guarantee religious freedom for all. Our Founding Fathers were students of The Age of Enlightenment; a time when the popular philosophy was to break from nearly 1000 years of religiously based government, and government control of religion. Individual liberty and freedom of religion was the basic tenants of Age of Enlightenment philosophy. Up until our Constitution, every European country had a king with "divine right" of rule. Our First Amendment, as well as the rest of the Constitution, was a landmark break from that tradition.

The concept is, plainly put, that a country cannot be free if the government meddles with religion, therefore religion cannot meddle with government, lest it become religiously based. It is, contrary to revisionist history, a two sided wall (as if there were any other kind of wall?).

The term "Separation of Church and State comes mainly from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist association in reply to their fears that government would favor one religion over another, and therefore threaten religious liberty.

Here is the text of that letter:

To Messrs. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. My duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which delcared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

ThJefferson Jan. 1, 1802
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
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<< It's about not letting republicans take TOO much power in congress >>



Curious, considering the fact the the originator of the phrase was one of our country's first republicans. :confused:
 

JupiterJones

Senior member
Jun 14, 2001
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Curious, considering the fact the the originator of the phrase was one of our country's first republicans

Actually....Jefferson was a Democrat (Originally called Democratic-Republicans, later shortened to Democrat). The first Republican elected to major office was Lincoln.

The Republicans succeeded the Whigs in about 1854
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
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<< Curious, considering the fact the the originator of the phrase was one of our country's first republicans

Actually....Jefferson was a Democrat (Originally called Democratic-Republicans, later shortened to Democrat). The first Republican elected to major office was Lincoln.

The Republicans succeeded the Whigs in about 1854
>>



oops, I had that turned around, didn't I? :eek:

My bad.
 

beer

Lifer
Jun 27, 2000
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<< Curious, considering the fact the the originator of the phrase was one of our country's first republicans

Actually....Jefferson was a Democrat (Originally called Democratic-Republicans, later shortened to Democrat). The first Republican elected to major office was Lincoln.

The Republicans succeeded the Whigs in about 1854
>>



Except that their platform did not take shape as we see it today until the Great Depression days.



<< In fact, if you want to practice satanic rituals, the government cannot force you to change your rituals. This goes as far as allowing your faith to break laws that other religions cannot break (alchol for minors in Christian churches, peeote for native americans, etc.) as long as these are minor laws (murders will never be allowed). >>



Not quote. The Supreme Court has an absolute freedom of belief (you can believe whatever you want) but you cannot act on those beliefs. Native Americans who were protested jobs that required drugs tests argued unsucessfully that their religion entitles them to take peyote.
 

dullard

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May 21, 2001
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<< Not quote. The Supreme Court has an absolute freedom of belief (you can believe whatever you want) but you cannot act on those beliefs. Native Americans who were protested jobs that required drugs tests argued unsucessfully that their religion entitles them to take peyote. >>



I think by examples, and here is a good example. I have the freedom of expression. I also like to wield long sharp knives and swing them around. Thus I am free to dance with sharp knives (as long as I don't make violent threats to other people). However, if my boss decides it is unsafe for me to dance with sharp knives around our customers, then he has the freedom to fire me. This job loss doesn't end my freedom of expression since I can flail the knives around someplace else.

Native Americans can take the illegal drug if they want. They cannot be arrested or fined by the government since they have freedom of religion. However, businesses have the freedom to hire safe employees and their customers have the right to safety. Thus the government cannot override the business's choice to not hire drug takers which may cause harm to customers or employees.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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<< It's about not letting republicans take TOO much power in congress >>

You think Democrats aren't religious?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
 
Jan 18, 2001
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grew out of the conflicts in england, between catholics and protestants, britich crown and pope, and various royality vieing for the crown. during the 1500-1600s
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
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It's about not winding up like the middle east..bunch of religious dirt ball fundamentalists running runinous religious isms in place of government.:)
 

killface

Golden Member
Aug 17, 2001
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Wasn't there a bill passed recently that said religious organizations can vie for federal charity monies? That sure seems like a violation of that ammendment.
 

Ameesh

Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
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<< Curious, considering the fact the the originator of the phrase was one of our country's first republicans

Actually....Jefferson was a Democrat (Originally called Democratic-Republicans, later shortened to Democrat). The first Republican elected to major office was Lincoln.

The Republicans succeeded the Whigs in about 1854
>>



can anyone say "bitch slapped"?
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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<< can anyone say "bitch slapped"? >>

Apparently you can. Unfortunately you don't know when to use it.
 

DuffmanOhYeah

Golden Member
May 21, 2001
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<<

<< It's about not letting republicans take TOO much power in congress >>



Curious, considering the fact the the originator of the phrase was one of our country's first republicans. :confused:
>>


Funny you say this after I corrected you. ;)
 

DuffmanOhYeah

Golden Member
May 21, 2001
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<< Curious, considering the fact the the originator of the phrase was one of our country's first republicans

Actually....Jefferson was a Democrat (Originally called Democratic-Republicans, later shortened to Democrat). The first Republican elected to major office was Lincoln.

The Republicans succeeded the Whigs in about 1854
>>


Oh wow you are so wrong. Jefferson was a Republican. You see, there were these two parties back then. They were called Federalists and Republicans, based on the style of government they expounded. Jefferson, being an agrarian from Virginia, wished to have strong state powers. Federalists like Madison believed in a strong central government run by elites. Now we see that we have 2 parties, one lobbying for state power, the other for federal power. Now wait, which one of those did Jefferson fall into again? Oh yeah, that's right, the Republican one.
 

Damage

Senior member
Dec 3, 2001
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What I find wierd is that it seems freedom OF religion has been turned into freedom FROM religion. In public/government it seems no one is alowed to have their beliefs anymore, because it may offend some other group.

I don't have any axe to grind as I don't really subscribe to organized religion of any kind, but I think it's sad that what was supposed to protect a people has been perverted into a way to supress them. (At least outside of their homes).