quick question about human arrogance and wisdom:

[Goosemaster]

Obviously israel was going for disproportinality in an attempt at modern day attrition/ victory

Obviously Olmert isn't a military man and it looks like part of his actions reflected a desire to live up to the position in the face of past icons such as Netanyahu etc. That second part is of course debatable


I would say that my quandry follows a key weakness in my character. Call it basic nievite or whatever, but I still can't believe that the leaders of large nations cannot recognize the limits of attempting to execute attrition against guerrillas; cannot differentiate between the efficacy of general attriction with precision elemination of the enemy.

basically, I see an israel that beginnign to rip itself appart because in the end they opened up the field for hesballah to win (they are now givng a lot of $$ to the people on behalf of iran), accomplished nothing worthy of the expense ($$ anad lives) since hesballah has more support than ever, and are now angry that their PM made a bad decision.


My quandry is that I cannot come to terms with the fact that arrogance and a lack of foresight is always present in the leadership of great nations. It's as if we are doomed to repeat history as the saying goes, but it seems so pathetic really, that generatio nafter generations, every side, ever nation, every state, every empire commits the same errors again and again....

shurg...


edit: [/emo] :laugh:

 

[shortylickens]

"quick question about human arrogance and wisdom:
middle east related but not necessarily political. jsut come in and spill your beans but keep it civil...."

Exactly how long have you been here?

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: shortylickens
"quick question about human arrogance and wisdom:
middle east related but not necessarily political. jsut come in and spill your beans but keep it civil...."

Exactly how long have you been here?

I am so nieve...I thought that the paper mache Dam would hold

 

[everman]

/beer, popcorn, pie, lawn chair

 

[shortylickens]

Anyway, my personal opinion is we really cant help those people and need to stop trying.
Specifically, we need to stop making promises we cant keep.

I've been to Isreal and I really loved it, but those folks (like the arabs) really enjoy fighting and killing even when there is no clear end benefit.

At least we justify it by taking oil.

They have been fighting for thousands of years, and unless we breed them out they will keep finding reasons to hate each other and themselves and keep fighting.

We also need to spend our dollars here at home and fix the local problems. I dont approve of all that money going outside when so many people hate us anyway.

 

[Willoughbyva]

I agree. America has enough problems at home to be going off and doing a bunch of stuff over seas.

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: shortylickens
Anyway, my personal opinion is we really cant help those people and need to stop trying.
Specifically, we need to stop making promises we cant keep.

I've been to Isreal and I really loved it, but those folks (like the arabs) really enjoy fighting and killing even when there is no clear end benefit.

At least we justify it by taking oil.

They have been fighting for thousands of years, and unless we breed them out they will keep finding reasons to hate each other and themselves and keep fighting.

We also need to spend our dollars here at home and fix the local problems. I dont approve of all that money going outside when so many people hate us anyway.

It's really compellign to see this unfold though in ones lifetime.

I was too young to live through and personally analyze past episodes in the middle east saga of violence and disaccord,until this '30 day war'. sure I was acutely aware during the beginning of the downfall and hte end of arafat, but seeign wari nthe papers from afghanistan, iraq and lebanon/iusrael at the same time....



it's hard to completely warp your head around the entropy of humanity....

 

[everman]

War has been going on there ever since there were people living there. They'll even fight over small pieces of land with no significant natural resources just for the sake of fighting. They fight for the sake of fighting. They're human

 

[Willoughbyva]

They are human, but we shouldn't get involved in their disputes, unless it is to broker an honest attempt at peace.

Perry

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: everman
War has been going on there ever since there were people living there. They'll even fight over small pieces of land with no significant natural resources just for the sake of fighting. They fight for the sake of fighting. They're human

Accepting our weaknesses and growing out of them seems kind of muted when those that yeild that msot power do everything in their power to hinder and even reverse those changes out of simple greed.

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: Willoughbyva
They are human, but we shouldn't get involved in their disputes, unless it is to broker an honest attempt at peace.

Perry

How can one broker a lasting piece with the unreasonable?

They both claim different divine mandates....It's like trying to tell a brick wall to accept jesus.

It just sits there and does its own thing

 

[aswedc]

Honestly I think the greatest hope for the future right now is Dubai, and to a smaller extent Qatar. If there can be a truly rich, prosperous, world class city and economy in the Islamic Middle East all the terror will slowly break down. The other countries would face enormous pressure to follow. You can't blame things on the US or Israel when one of your own has achieved such success, and there is nothing money can't solve. Very few would choose a life of religious militarism over the middle class. The problem now is too many are faced with poverty and choose terrorism....

 

[chambersc]

I don't feel like typing some long, grandious couple of paragraphs detailing my opinion on this matter but will explain any of my bullets at a later time

1) It's not Israel's fault
2) The war wasn't stopped due to anything Israel had control over
3) The UN severely handcuffs a nations soverignty while undermining everyone's safety
4) I would advocate a larger skirmish in Israel (keep it regional)
5) The UN did a very bad thing by calling for a ceasefire because...
1) It stopped the one-sided war and allowed the enemy to regroup
2) A small resistance movement is not only getting more monetary support but a boost in their ideological viewpoint has arisen
3) This is classic pre-Vietnam stuff...have we not learned our lesson
4) The small group can claim victory because their definition of victory is something along the lines of "repelling the zionist state out of Lebanon"

Disclaimer: No spelling was checked. No thoughts were rationalized. The UN is necessary at administering unbinding press releases every once in a while but, when it comes to managing the will of countries, should TPAD.

 

[ForumMaster]

umm, and what did bush do in iraq? the exact same thing. the things is, we didn't attack them. they came over to our soil and attacked and kidnapped our soldiers. we didn't really have a choice but to go to war. the things is, we under estimated them. badly. we didn't know how many anti-tank rockets they had and that they had so many katyushas.

and for all your taling, for everything you said, i can find something that the US did in iraq. Olmert lost his political carrer and so did Dan Halutz (israel's chief of staff). so you say we had no chance against guerrillas? and why can the US? what we need to do is assasinate the iranian president and get it over with.

 

[everman]

Originally posted by: ForumMaster
[...] the things is, we didn't attack them. they came over to our soil and attacked and kidnapped our soldiers.

Of course they don't even recognize Israel as a state. People like Iran's President want Israel to be wiped off the map, he's been recorded saying that. It won't stop until there's some kind of huge war where either Israel is destroyed, or somehow Israel wipes the floor with everyone that attacked them.

 

[chambersc]

Originally posted by: ForumMaster
umm, and what did bush do in iraq? the exact same thing. the things is, we didn't attack them. they came over to our soil and attacked and kidnapped our soldiers. we didn't really have a choice but to go to war. the things is, we under estimated them. badly. we didn't know how many anti-tank rockets they had and that they had so many katyushas.

and for all your taling, for everything you said, i can find something that the US did in iraq. Olmert lost his political carrer and so did Dan Halutz (israel's chief of staff). so you say we had no chance against guerrillas? and why can the US? what we need to do is assasinate the iranian president and get it over with.

So many directions to take this statement that I don't know where to begin.