Question Quick Question about Gen 4 or PCIE 4.0 NVME drives

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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So far, looking at other posts here as discussed in earlier related threads, I think it is safe to assume that a Gen 4 NVME drive is backward-compatible to PCIE v.3.0.

Is it safe to suppose that this only results in the expected speed of an NVME within those hardware constraints?

As apparent from other recent threads I've posted, I'm going through a major household hardware makeover and simplification. I have a machine I built last year out of older-gen (but brand-new) Z170 and related parts, and the board is the ASUS Z170-WS workstation board with plenty of PCIE lanes and x16/x8 slots. I need -- at least temporarily -- to boost the storage capacity of that system while I plan purchase or DIY build of newer hardware.

All the NVME drives with capacity above 2TB (for instance, a 4TB Western Digital "Black") are Gen 4 technology. I am considering purchase of this WD NVME drive.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
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For Gen3, I'm a big fan of the Intel QLC drives, the 660p and 670p in 2TB sizes. They are relatively inexpensive ($72).
 

Tech Junky

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Jan 27, 2022
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Gen 3 drives are fine. More than enough speed for the os. Everything is backwards compatible.

Personally I cap drives at 1TB though for nvme as this is the sweet spot for price and capacity. Prices are always changing though. If you go bigger consider partitioning and backup the production partition to the secondary and to the raid.

My Linux backups to the raid after the first one take a minute or two at this point. If it takes a dive I can partition a new drive, copy the backup, run a couple of commands to make it bootable and be running again.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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Gen 3 drives are fine. More than enough speed for the os. Everything is backwards compatible.

Personally I cap drives at 1TB though for nvme as this is the sweet spot for price and capacity. Prices are always changing though. If you go bigger consider partitioning and backup the production partition to the secondary and to the raid.

My Linux backups to the raid after the first one take a minute or two at this point. If it takes a dive I can partition a new drive, copy the backup, run a couple of commands to make it bootable and be running again.
Thanks to Larry and Junky.

Last year, I bought a few 1TB SK Hynix NVME drives, and a 2GB SK Hynix also. I never deployed the 2GB drive, but I had fitted it in a PCIE expansion card. I'll be looking for a "temporary home" for my server files -- that's the problem I'm working on at the moment. By tomorrow, I'll have those server drives mounted, unless there was some problem with the controller I'd used in the server. I can't imagine why that would be the case, but my fingers are crossed. Once I have those four disks mounted in the temporary Win 10 system I'd used for an HTPC, I'll load the Stablebit software and the files should be available for rescue and relocation.

This is going slower than I'd like, but I'm taking apart two PCs to build one for at least temporary use.

The Z170 system with the workstation board seems like a perfect home for those files while I investigate a Synology NAS device.

If 2TB Gen 3 NVME drives are around $100 + or - , I can buy some and get another dual-NVME controller-with-bifurcation card. But I'm looking at options, like the 4TB WD Black NVME. There's plenty of available storage already in the workstation system: the remainders of 3 1TB NVMEs, each with piles of capacity left, and a 2TB spinner with plenty of available space. If I have to put my library of DVR movie captures on some hot-swap spinner just to save them, I can do that while I sort out everything else. I can live without watching those movies for at least a couple months until things are back to normal.
 

Tech Junky

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@BonzaiDuck

You're making this more complicated than it needs to be as well as tossing money at a solution that doesn't need to be.

Unless you're working on huge files in a live manner the NVME option isn't prudent.

As to moving the HDD's from one case to another might not be needed if you simply use a Linux USB drive to boot from on the existing system to pull the files from the drives. If it's a simple OS drive issue in the existing FS box not working then you could just clone the W10 drive and put it into the FS system to bring it online w/o monkeying around with porting drives from one case to the other.

There's a saying.... work smart, not hard.
 

Tech Junky

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Also, if you have a system that will be powered up anyway for some other purpose just get a DAS instead of NAS to save some $$$$.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KY73BNQ - $200 and hits up to 400MB/s and can be a simple enclosure or do Raid 0/1 in 2 arrays

The whole idea is you simply plug it into whichever PC is powered on and share the drives through that system. Skip the extra NAS costs for the NIC / CPU built into them. Unless you want a standalone FS in the form of a NAS. The DAS might be the easier option as it's a smaller form factor and can be easily moved from one system to the next just by connecting the USBC cable to the new system and making the shares.

If you're seriously downsizing and collapsing your tech dump the ATX boxes completely and switch tot he laptop and then plug in the DAS to your router to make it a NAS in terms of functionality. If you still want the bigger screen then get a USB dock for the laptop and connect it to the screen / laptop w/ a wireless keyboard w/ a trackpad.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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Also, if you have a system that will be powered up anyway for some other purpose just get a DAS instead of NAS to save some $$$$.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KY73BNQ - $200 and hits up to 400MB/s and can be a simple enclosure or do Raid 0/1 in 2 arrays

The whole idea is you simply plug it into whichever PC is powered on and share the drives through that system. Skip the extra NAS costs for the NIC / CPU built into them. Unless you want a standalone FS in the form of a NAS. The DAS might be the easier option as it's a smaller form factor and can be easily moved from one system to the next just by connecting the USBC cable to the new system and making the shares.

If you're seriously downsizing and collapsing your tech dump the ATX boxes completely and switch tot he laptop and then plug in the DAS to your router to make it a NAS in terms of functionality. If you still want the bigger screen then get a USB dock for the laptop and connect it to the screen / laptop w/ a wireless keyboard w/ a trackpad.
That's all good advice to consider. But it's hard to let go of old habits and established home-computing paradigms. I need to get to a point where a single computer with some emergency backup option (another computer, like my laptop) leaves me with a comfortable sense of security and capability. I haven't done any programming or database work in 20 years. But I have 20+ years worth of files that I have to sort through before I prune them back. And there's my movie and DVR collection to consider.

Maybe I just need to scale back without completely changing my approach to things. Two years ago, I had two people to consider, and six years ago, there were three. Beyond that, other family members got my discards as hand-me-downs, and they were very happy with that.

MEANWHILE! You can call it "old" and Win-11-incapable, but I'd put together this system last year with a Kaby-Lake and Z170 parts. It has tons of PCIE lanes and a surplus of PCIE x16/x8 slots. I'm going to drop into it the spare NVME 2TB. After putting the important files from the server on it, I'm impressed with the speed of local file access for such a system as opposed to pulling files from a server, even with G-bit ethernet.
 

Tech Junky

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let go of old habits
Well, you can hold onto to those habits and spend more time and money on it along with keeping it complicated or you can start over with more efficient use of time and money.

Windows isn't what is used to do what you want to do. It sucks and breaks causing you to spend more time and effort to maintain it.

If all you need is a repo for files and data setup Linux on it and enable samba and you'll be stable 24/7. Stick the box in the corner somewhere and manage it through webmin / ssh. You only need a monitor for the initial setup to click a few buttons as prompted. Once it's configured you just do it through CLI or the web GUI with webmin. You could enable RDP on it and go that route as well if you want to feel that desktop experience.

It's not about W11 or Z170 or NVME or PCIE lanes. It's about having a stable setup you don't waste time with.

Of course local file access is always faster than pulling from a server on the LAN if you only have a 1GE connection. Basing your network speed off the speed of the drives is how you get the performance you want. My Raid setup only does 400-450MB/s so, that puts my LAN needs at 5GE to prevent a bottleneck. Most of the time I'm wireless so, on that side I'm at 1.5gbps which is fine for the majority of what I'm doing as I can just copy whatever to my internal drive and run it at full speed while needed.

KISS it and be done with it.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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Linux . . . Samba . . . I'm going to look into this some more. I'm thinking there's plenty of time. But time flies --

We saw writing on the wall about support ending for Win 10 -- this year I think. But taking care and computing with caution, I can squeeze more from the systems stuck with Win 10 -- probably without much greater risk.

I'm going to upgrade my laptop to Win 11 Pro -- an LG Gram purchased in 2021. I should've just put Win 11 on it right away, but I didn't. Now I'm debating whether to clone the disk before I update. People on forums spoke to error messages, speculations that the update was dealing with unsigned drivers. But I don't have any drivers on the laptop that didn't come with it new.

Next, I"m going to set up file shares and/or synching from my main Win 10 desktop. Two of those -- twins, actually. Good Macrium backup systems to hotswap 2.5" drives. So, in this household and over the next couple weeks or so, I will get rid of either one or two computers. The server -- it took care of itself. dead hardware that I can gut from the case. Then the case becomes available if I want to buy parts and build new. If I get rid of the HTPC currently fitted with the server's HDDs and controller, that's two down.

But I'm also looking at Dell Precision and Optiplex, and the small-footprint versions of same. I just don't fully believe yet that an OEM -- top tier! -- will give me all the expansion or modification options that I want. At least when you build a machine, you can feel like you've already been inside of it.

I have to transition to Win 11 eventually for "main desktop" and laptop. And I need to wean myself of having a server on my network. Or otherwise go forward so that it becomes more of a peripheral means of backup storage.

I'm not even going to buy any expensive NVME drives right now. I've got a spare 2TB SK Hynix I can just add to one of my desktops. I'm going to have piles of storage there without any server. But the NVME was what I was asking about initially in this thread.

Anyway, my server died -- I figured that it would sooner or later -- and it's forcing me to make simplifying decisions. Now that I have my files back, I can take more time with the next steps.
 

Shmee

Memory & Storage, Graphics Cards Mod Elite Member
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There is no need to go to Windows 11 yet for you that I could think of, as Windows 10 is still supported, till 2025 sometime I believe. Other than that, I am not sure what you are asking about here. If you need to build a new NAS/server, you can do so, but I wouldn't run Windows on it. There are NAS/server OS designed particularly for that.

As for NVMe drives, in general the PCIe gen4 drives are backwards compatible as mentioned, but will be limited to around 3600 MB/s on PCIe gen3 x4. Though, if you are thinking of putting together a new NAS/server, or repairing the current one, I would probably go with quality 3.5in HDDs (enterprise or NAS pro grade) or just 2.5in SATA SSDs. These are much easier to hotswap and add a bunch of, and the backplanes are much cheaper.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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There is no need to go to Windows 11 yet for you that I could think of, as Windows 10 is still supported, till 2025 sometime I believe. Other than that, I am not sure what you are asking about here. If you need to build a new NAS/server, you can do so, but I wouldn't run Windows on it. There are NAS/server OS designed particularly for that.

As for NVMe drives, in general the PCIe gen4 drives are backwards compatible as mentioned, but will be limited to around 3600 MB/s on PCIe gen3 x4. Though, if you are thinking of putting together a new NAS/server, or repairing the current one, I would probably go with quality 3.5in HDDs (enterprise or NAS pro grade) or just 2.5in SATA SSDs. These are much easier to hotswap and add a bunch of, and the backplanes are much cheaper.
You are very correct about much of it. I go through occasional "upgrade panic" episodes every so often. Part of my underlying motives are a fear of "not keeping current". But I just updated my 2-year-old laptop with Win 11 Pro, and I can see that I would've been happier deferring the upgrade. Now I have a learning curve when I least need to consume my time and trouble.

I also found the information about any "dropped support" for both Windows 10 and Windows 11, so -- yeah-- Win 10 is good for another 2 year and 4 months, and then probably good after that, if one has good updated malware protection, or there's some unforeseen obsolescence of a feature that can't be replaced by other means.

Now, as to the "server" system. You are correct about the 3.5" HDDs. I have currently "resurrected" the server's functional presence in my LAN. I can worry about future longevity of the existing 3.5" 3TB drives -- four of them. Replacing those drives with "re-furb" or new -- certified and warrantied units is a fairly cheap proposition. I can get them for between $35 and $50. HOWEVER. Because I wanted quick availability of replacements, I had already purchased at least one -- and likely two spares. The first of these is still in it's sealed anti-stat wrap. The other had been mounted in a hot-swap bay of the server, but only turned on briefly for back-ups, and then overlooked and forgotten -- unlocked and therefore not powered on all this time.

I took another, closer look at OS options and prospects. First, I am now the only household user, with three "accounts" on my network -- one for each of three front-end/client or workstation/laptop systems. If I need or want to access files on the server that I'm rebuilding, I can just use Windows file-sharing.

Looking at the feature differences between Windows "client" OS and server OS, the server-OS features may only be "conveniences" and otherwise not worth paying for. I don't need a domain server. I don't need active directory. But if all my connected (wired or wireless) systems are being backed up locally, then I don't see any additional vulnerability or performance issues. I can still run a drive pool with Stablebit under Windows 10. If I don't need a "backup server" to regularly run backups of client systems during the night, it is because each system is regularly backed up by Macrium separately. If I were to install a server OS --- say Windows 2016 -- I would need special backup software if the built-in backup features did not meet my needs, because you cannot run the regular Macrium on the server OS.

Another problem with using the server OS concerns the server battery backup. You cannot simply go out and buy a regular APC UPS and expect its software to install and then communicate with the server OS and hardware. You have to buy a server UPS. Otherwise, you'd be waiting for the power-outage disaster which depletes the UPS until it's run down, because either the server model UPS or the regular workstation model will not shut down the server in 5 minutes because the software doesn't communicate with the hardware. You'd otherwise have to be available and at home to shut down the server during a power outage.

The resurrected "server" also happens to be my HTPC machine -- "serving" my HT and TV with my library of captured movies and TV shows. I only ever needed Win 10 for the HTPC -- or before Win 10, then Win 7.

I could install TrueNAS on the same hardware instead. But as much as I was impressed by the TRueNAS interface, I think it and other NAS options use a non-NTFS file system.

IF I want to use a NAS device like Synology, I will likely have to pay for the hardware and the drives or storage media up front, and I could estimate about $600. They have warranty requirements as well. But I happen to have already a new PSU, motherboard, RAM and CPU to simply redeploy my server PC hardware. I can buy another Win 10 Pro license for about $70 in shrinkwrap, but Win 2016 Essentials will cost me at least $250. Of course, TrueNAS Core is free, or so I thought it was.

I could also just scrap the server box altogether, leaving me with two twin Kaby/Sky-lake workstation systems, one of which has a workstation motherboard with gobs of PCIE lanes for PCIE v 3.0. I can expand this workstation with a couple dual NVME cards. I could continue to use it as a "workstation", but share files to my other PCs -- its twin desktop, and my laptop. by the time I begin to feel insecure or unsupported for Win 10, I will have either built or purchased a Win-11-capable workstation.

I just have to assure that -- wherever my important files are stored -- there is a backup system that will restore them.

That leaves me with some overblown, over-imagined needs that I can defer. I shouldn't feel "left behind" because I don't have a 16-core gen-13 workstation. I could either get an OEM, or given that it is not a rush requirement, take another year to slowly build it. Either way, if I purchase an OEM Dell Optiplex or Precision "top end" workstation -- SFF or regular midtower -- it's going to cost about the same, and I might find some deficiency in expansion options.

I might like to have a PC workstation with "SFF" -- low-profile, taking less space. But I could also live with one of my high-end mid-tower cases if I just build the workstation myself.
 
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