Quick Minor Question about UEFI and MBR vs GPT

[BonzaiDuck]

Ultimately I could probably sort this out on my own, but someone is bound to know the answer with some conviction. I have a lot on my plate today, so I'll just ask.

Typically, no disks that have come into my possession have a size greater than 2TB. So I haven't bothered to format them as GPT.

However, it IS possible (only to me at the moment, given my sketchy knowledge) that Windows might automatically choose GPT. But it never did with Windows 7. I'd only seen this happen with Windows 10. GPT has more "small partitions" or volumes than just "System Reserved."

Is this in any way tied to Windows "booting in UEFI mode?" In other words, if I made an initial mistake in preparing to install windows, the drive was already initialized for MBR and my installation left me with just "System Reserved" and a "C:" volume, did I screw up "booting in UEFI mode?"

Or am I "good to go?"

One reason this question has my attention: I'm planning to clone my Win7-64-SP1 "Pro" installation to a 950 Pro Samsung M.2 card. I'd like to avoid detours and troubles. I'm pretty sure I have to set BIOS to "M.2 mode" as opposed to "PCI Express."

 

[VirtualLarry]

Is this in any way tied to Windows "booting in UEFI mode?" In other words, if I made an initial mistake in preparing to install windows, the drive was already initialized for MBR and my installation left me with just "System Reserved" and a "C:" volume, did I screw up "booting in UEFI mode?"

Short answer: Yes. You screwed up.

 

[XavierMace]

You did not screw up booting in UEFI mode or formatting using GPT. The drive doesn't have to be bigger than 2TB to format using GPT, that's just when it becomes a requirement. You screwed up by trying to use Win7 on current hardware.

 

[LurchFrinky]

In case the above answers were not clear enough, UEFI requires a boot partition reside on a GPT disk.

 

[deustroop]

Is this thread a continuation of
https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/installing-win-7-64bit-sp1-on-a-z170-skylake-system.2486705/ ?

If so , see my post--is that the issue ?

 

[CiPHER]

UEFI has dedicated boot partitions, whereas MBR means the first sector is the boot sector and there the boot code has to do everything. UEFI is more standardised and allows for more complex bootcode to be easily maintained.

You CAN boot from GPT partitions without UEFI, just Windows is not able to do that. Booting via UEFI requires a GPT boot partition however. That is why Windows creates one extra partition.

Windows chooses whether to install GPT/MBR depending on whether you boot in UEFI mode or MBR mode. So the way you boot the Windows DVD setup determines whether it chooses UEFI or MBR, as far as i know.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Is this thread a continuation of
https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/installing-win-7-64bit-sp1-on-a-z170-skylake-system.2486705/ ?

If so , see my post--is that the issue ?

I think it is a continuation of your thread. I think I had read through your thread before I got started with this.

so to recap, I think I had to slipstream a driver to create a new win install disk, only after I had reached the partition creation/selection/format window. Then Windows Install told me it couldn't use my disk. I think it had then initialized the disk as MBR, so when I deleted the partitions to use with the prepared install disk, that's what it found, and that's what it kept.

What I need to know is whether or not GPT is an essential requirement for installing an M.2 950 Pro and making it the boot drive. That is, if I clone the existing partition to the 950 Pro, will I reap the benefits? Or do I have to completely reinstall Windows again to assure that I have a GPT partition?

I haven't purchased the M.2 card yet. I'm taking my time to build this system. I just need to know if I have to start all over again with the OS, or that I can simply go forward.

Can anyone tell me?

 

[BonzaiDuck]

You did not screw up booting in UEFI mode or formatting using GPT. The drive doesn't have to be bigger than 2TB to format using GPT, that's just when it becomes a requirement. You screwed up by trying to use Win7 on current hardware.

When I ordered parts for this system-in-progress, I ordered OEMs white-box (it's a cardboard envelope now) for both win 7 and win 10. I have a reticence about cutting the win-7 umbilical because I have two SiliconDust HDHR' cablecard tuners on my network and I want keep my Media Center setup.

I can "let go" because I'm selling one of the Sandy Bridge systems, and the other continues to function that way. But I'd prefer the option for the new Z170 system when I start "really using it."

 

[BonzaiDuck]

OK . . . this is three posts in a row, but any comments are appreciated.

The "goal" or objective is to find a way to convert an MBR boot-system disk (SATA SSD) to a GPT partition such that the system behaves normally afterward. Or, that is objective #1. Can't meet this objective? Then I have to reinstall Windows.

Ultimately I want to clone the resulting GPT boot-system disk to a Sammy 950 Pro M.2 SSD card.

Some folks use Acronis for their partition management. I'd never heard of EaseUS Partition Master before, but it apparently will do just the thing.

Only one way to find out: clone the existing MBR partition for backup/safety, and try the freakin' software. It appears, however, that the Trial version only does "data disks." $40 probably saves me time, effort, sweat and worry going through all the install hoops unnecessarily.

Anyone have anything to say about EaseUS Partition Master or their other products?

 

[Puffnstuff]

UEFI windows install is the preferred method if performance under 8+ is your goal otherwise the old school mbr will work. With that said I only use mbr on legacy gear that cannot perform a uefi install.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

UEFI windows install is the preferred method if performance under 8+ is your goal otherwise the old school mbr will work. With that said I only use mbr on legacy gear that cannot perform a uefi install.

[ . . . . abso-freakin-lutely!! But P&N forum stuff . . . now the tech business at hand, below:]

I went forward and purchased EaseUS Partition Master. The free version suggests you could only convert MBR to GPT for a DATA drive, but the promotion for the licensed program is emphatic about leaving the user with a BOOTABLE GPT drive.

I cloned the original MBR partition to a hot-swap HDD as a temporary fall-back. Ease-US does that, too . . . as well as you would expect from Acronis.

Now here is the thing that stymies me, but I haven't played with it further yet in BIOS.

Knowing what I know about drive signatures, I made sure to check the "shutdown" checkbox after performing the conversion operations. The manual for EaseUS seems a bit like "Chinese-English" you would expect, but becomes clear after the initial attempt to boot after turning off the hot-swap drive.

EaseUS says (of course) to enter BIOS and change to "UEFI mode." But I was already "set" to UEFI mode in BIOS. Attempting to boot windows after merely inspecting the BIOS without saving anything raises a red warning that the boot configuration had been "changed," and I had to re-enter BIOS. I may have gone through this cycle twice, but remembered something I read on another forum about entering the compatibility menu and selecting "other OS" instead of "Windows UEFI." so I tried that, and -- great -- fine.

After the initial Windows splash screen, an EaseUS window appeared to say the "operations had completed." At this point, I only suspect that the Windows UEFI-mode had to be affected by these operations, and that I MIGHT be able to go back into BIOS and change back to "Windows UEFI" with a successful reboot. Don't know at this point -- though -- again -- comments and advice welcome. By the time someone responds, I'll probably have tried it.

I was also thrown off to find that one of the addition volumes created on the converted drive was a FAT32 -- not NTFS -- but a web-query put my mind at rest.

That's where I am so far.

BACK TO YOUR REPLY, PUFFNSTUFF.

Are you telling me that you could install Windows 7 as MBR on an M.2 drive (such as that I'm planning to buy), and all would be wonderful anyway? And I suppose you're saying that a GPT Windows 7 install would show higher performance if booting from the M.2 drive?

I just wanted to make sure that I have in excess of 1,000MB/s sustained read from the 950 Pro I haven't purchased yet.

This other stuff -- the BIOS setting -- should sort itself out, or so I would hope. If push comes to shove, I could always opt to completely reinstall. The only things I added to the OS were stress and monitoring programs as well as the chipset and other drivers.

Sorry to ask for your clarification, but it's important that I understand what you said.

I can see myself exploring the possibility of making the M.2 drive a dual-boot drive, adding Win 10 later.

 

[Puffnstuff]

I would and have used UEFI on 7 which worked well on my sata3 ssd. I have no experience with M.2 so I cannot comment on it apart from on my z97 mb I'd have to disable many features in order to use one which is why I passed on running one. Why would you run 7 when you can still upgrade to 10 for free?

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I would and have used UEFI on 7 which worked well on my sata3 ssd. I have no experience with M.2 so I cannot comment on it apart from on my z97 mb I'd have to disable many features in order to use one which is why I passed on running one. Why would you run 7 when you can still upgrade to 10 for free?

I'm not ready to cut the umbilical to Windows Media Center yet. I'm not sure which computer will "carry on" with WMC until either SiliconDust's project allows for encrypted DRM channel viewing, or some other replacement working in Win 10 allows it. Right now, all the systems I have are capable of accessing the tuners for the full cable subscription, including the system that this one will eventually replace. That system is promised to a friend, who will pay shipping for the whole enchilada.

Ultimately, I should only need one of them to lean on until there's either a replacement useable under Win 10, or I simply give up on the idea. There is still a long active thread about this between me and Kartajan in the HTPC forum.

I'm just not sure yet "which is 'THE ONE.'" To sell the other system, I must move everything from it to the 2700K, already functioning with WMC and dual-bootable to Win 10.

Also, I thought that the Win-7-to-10 free upgrade offer ended July 29. You're telling me that this is now "extended?" All my systems before this one are dual-boot for both OS's. And since I haven't installed Win 10 on this one yet -- well -- I won't say anything has really been "wasted" except for the Win 7 installation -- activated a week ago after waiting as long as I could.

If I can still create a dual-boot arrangement based solely on that Win 7 license, then the Win 10 still in the white envelope can be saved and used later for a time when I truly need it.

UPDATE: A DISCOVERY: Maybe I'm depending too much on Anandtech for second opinions, but as long as I don't annoy anyone, I won't fret too much.

The problem with my UEFI BIOS, and the problem for others who encountered this problem over "Windows UEFI mode," is that "Secure Boot" is enabled by default and (only appears) as unchangeable. It's not. And I had discovered other forums and discussions where that possibility is not explored further.

I did a web-search, and turned up THIS:

http://www.technorms.com/45538/disable-enable-secure-boot-asus-motherboard-uefi-bios-utility

"Oh, da terrowists want to kill my poodle Fluffy." "Da NSA is listenin' to my phone sex with my Ho in Re-no."

That's part of it; the hack attacks on banks and elsewhere over the years explains the rest of it.

So we got this "Secure Boot" (F***stick) obstacle.

The beauty of this, and people will say I'm a dummy for not figuring it out earlier, is that the link uses the EXAMPLE of the BIOS for MY . . . FREAKIN' . . . . SABERTOOTH MOTHERBOARD!

SCHWEET!

[Secure-boot, my ass, Microsoft.]

 

[grimpr]

What I need to know is whether or not GPT is an essential requirement for installing an M.2 950 Pro and making it the boot drive. That is, if I clone the existing partition to the 950 Pro, will I reap the benefits? Or do I have to completely reinstall Windows again to assure that I have a GPT partition?

Its not essential but its worth it not for the faster boot speeds but for the separate recovery partition alone, its very handy for fixing things in the main installation, you can boot to the recovery partition by pressing SHIFT + clicking at the reboot button at the login screen from inside Windows 10. I say its worth it over MBR.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I think I've got that, grimpr. Basically, we're concluding that you don't need GPT to benefit from NVMe on the M.2 card.

If it weren't for a need to have Windows 7 in dual-boot with Windows 10, it's unlikely that I would have any concerns about this.

I'm just holding off from installing my application software on the rig until I've got an M.2 drive in the box with both OS's installed. I'm beginning to wonder if I would rather prefer a 1TB M.2 instead of one half the size, but the 1TB M.2 drives currently available have SATA speed specs. there are exceptions -- for instance the Intel 750 PCI-E card -- which is not an M.2 card. I want to avoid filling more PCI-E slots if possible, just to leave open the option for an SLI of GTX 1070 x2. The third full-length PCI-E slot will provide X4 lanes, but it may interfere with my USB3 configuration -- I need to re-examine that possibility.

I'm still a bit confused about the relationship between "Secure Boot" and "Windows UEFI mode." I think -- in order to use "Secure Boot" (and I don't see the need for it), one has to use "windows UEFI mode." But with SEcure Boot turned off, with all my storage devices limited to "UEFI [drivers] only," I have to change the mode from Windows UEFI to "Other OS" so that the system will boot.

Also, as I may have said, I had to recreate the Win 7 ISO to add some USB3 drivers, and this was recommended at ASUS ROG forums as the only way to achieve a successful Win 7 installation. But with this slipstreamed installation disk, creating a Win 7 "Repair disk" is a disaster.

I'm wondering if I should attempt to run "Repair" from the original Windows 7 install disc. It wouldn't make any sense that doing so would foul up existing driver installations needed to install Windows in the first place.

Meanwhile, EaseUS tech-support has a keen interest in all this. They say that the M.2 NVMe drives are such a recent development, they are concerning themselves in a need to tweak and revise their software. So they requested screenies from their Partition Master SW as well as from the OS "Disk Management" screen, even as I haven't installed an M.2 drive yet.

I'm also waiting to hear from ASUS, since it's their BIOS and revision, and their hardware.

 

[deustroop]

It appears the questions above, tho now extremely open ended, allow several conclusions.

First, the query whether the M2 is a candidate for cloning from a perfectly viable ssd . The answer is yes so long as the M2 is in a system that supports NVME drives as boot drives. MVME is just another drive in this context.

Second, can one migrate an MBR boot drive to a GPT one ? I would never believe that is possible. So to operate the UEFI and GPT combo, one would have to install Windows in that configuration. Ignore EaseUS.

Third, can the configuration include Win 7 ? The main issue installing 7 on a modern board, leaving aside UEFI , is the lack of USB 3 drivers. Solutions I have heard or read about include a dvd install where the drive does not use a usb connection. Asus also has a separate work around .

Anything else ?

 

[dlerious]

I see the option is available in MiniTool Partition Wizard though I haven't done much beyond realigning partitions. Little blurb about it here https://www.partitionwizard.com/convertpartition/

Edit: Just found this, so the answer appears to be no.

"This is still one more thing you should know: MiniTool Partition Wizard can’t convert the MBR disk contains system partition to GPT disk for it will cause your system to be unbootable."

 

[Redstorm]

I think it is a continuation of your thread. I think I had read through your thread before I got started with this.

so to recap, I think I had to slipstream a driver to create a new win install disk, only after I had reached the partition creation/selection/format window. Then Windows Install told me it couldn't use my disk. I think it had then initialized the disk as MBR, so when I deleted the partitions to use with the prepared install disk, that's what it found, and that's what it kept.

What I need to know is whether or not GPT is an essential requirement for installing an M.2 950 Pro and making it the boot drive. That is, if I clone the existing partition to the 950 Pro, will I reap the benefits? Or do I have to completely reinstall Windows again to assure that I have a GPT partition?

I haven't purchased the M.2 card yet. I'm taking my time to build this system. I just need to know if I have to start all over again with the OS, or that I can simply go forward.

Can anyone tell me?

I did exactly this, cloned my Windows 7 MBR to a GPT partition scheme on a new Samsung 950 Pro 512GB and fixing up the boot partition, I cheated and used Windows 10 to create the GPT partitions then cloned my windows 7 build over the top of the windows 10 install, then used the windows 10 recovery console and BCDedit to fix up the boot configuration.

I wrote it up so i didn't forget how I did it.
http://www.geektech.co.nz/convert-mbr-to-gpt-without-data-loss

 

[BonzaiDuck]

OK -- "SOLVED" -- but I did it with the installation originally described, and didn't have to go through the hoops described by Redstorm. But these are all individual, unique situations, so Redstorm's information is also something to consider.

First --- and this may already be posted in a sticky or some other thread -- "Steps for installing Windows 7 in UEFI mode for Z170:"

1) In BIOS, DISABLE SECURE BOOT mode. There may be a way to re-enable it later if you want it, but you have to choose "Other OS" instead of "Windows UEFI Mode" otherwise. SECURE BOOT is almost a separate issue. If you look at indications available in web-searches beginning with 2014, SECURE BOOT does two things: On the surface, it is a protection against malware and theft; "under the surface," it makes it impossible or troublesome to install a NON-Microsoft OS, or such was the worry about it.

And you can't disable it on all boards. OEMs and possibly even board makers were allowed to choose whether to make it possible to disable in BIOS. Of your BIOS doesn't allow this, you would have to choose "Other OS" instead of "Windows UEFI mode." While you NEED UEFI mode to ENABLE Secure Boot, you don't need Secure Boot to Enable Win UEFI Mode. But that should just make sense.

To Disable SECURE BOOT on my Sabertooth Z170, you must:
a) back up your Security keys from BIOS to USB flash -- this is an option within the Secure Boot Menu of BIOS.
b) delete the PK key only. I say -- ONLY!
c) Exit, save, re-enter BIOS, and you can now disable Secure Boot.

2) ENABLE CSM (Compatibility Support Module). Then select "UEFI or Legacy OPROM" for the boot device, and set all others to either "Ignore" or "UEFI First." You might be able to go forward with "UEFI Only" for boot drive, but I don't think this was the prevailing advice.

3) To avoid booting to the win 7 install disc and then find "no mouse keyboard" function, turn ON any PS/2 emulation of USB kybd or mouse. This is another option in BIOS, probably under the USB menu of the "Advanced" menu -- depends on board maker, board type and model.

4) Install Windows or the slipstreamed disc/USB created according to ASUS instructions.

Apparently, I had left "SEcure boot" ON when I installed, and out of frustration chose "Other OS" instead of Windows UEFI mode. And that's likely how you get an MBR drive instead of a GPT.

WHAT I DID WITH MY BOTCHED INSTALLATION THAT I WANTED TO KEEP:

Here, I had to use a utility like EaseUS Partition Master. I think Acronis has this feature also, but you can investigate. Nothing was wrong with the EaseUS conversion to GPT, but it would then be detected by Secure Boot as a "violation." So -- as I said -- Secure Boot "DISABLED."

All I had to do then was to set the BIOS according to the above procedure, then boot to the ORIGINAL Windows Install disc. You won't get the "Repair" capability with the ASUS-created slipstream disc. And since your installation already has the slipstreamed drivers, the original install disc is just the thing.

Run "Repair." Windows ( and I mean Windows 7!!) will fix it. You are now booting in Windows UEFI mode, with GPT partitions.

NOW -- ABOUT THAT CLONE YOU WANT TO MAKE FOR THE M.2 DRIVE.

Microsoft provides two patches to install native NVMe drivers for Windows 7. I would think they need to be installed before you make the clone, or you're SOL. Also, the essential patch download page will also take you to another patch, which corrects BSODs when the first patch is used on some computer configurations.

Once the essential patch is installed, system restored to stability as needed with the second patch, you should just be able to set the appropriate items in your BIOS and clone the SATA SSD or HDD to the M.2 drive. AND -- with the NVMe drivers pre-loaded, it should boot.

I guess I'm going to find out, aren't I? NOW I feel better about placing an order for that 950 Pro. Just wish there was a 1TB model, although -- I THINK -- Plextor offers it for an arm and a leg and maybe even your "junk."

But now I should be able to go forward with software installations and some confidence I won't have to start from scratch with the M.2 drive.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

ALSO -- Note to Dlerious:

There are times when I face the question "Spend all afternoon in toil or sweat, or spend $50 on software."

The TRIAL version of EaseUS Partition Master will only convert an MBR to a GPT DATA drive -- not a bootable one. In the promo for the purchased license, they are clear and emphatic -- their software WILL convert a bootable MBR to bootable GPT. The only hitch is in having "Secure Boot" enabled, for, as I said, the system will recognize changes to the disk as a possible malware infection.

If I had done this properly from the start, I would not have felt a need to purchase the software. It looks like decent software for the utility collection, though. My Acronis Disk Director 11 update-2 doesn't work for the Z170. MAYBE my licensed copy of True Image 2014 would do it, but that's on another computer and I don't even know if making the bootable CD would work. At least, with EaseUS, they were emphatic that the result would be bootable.

Now, I need to find some money . . . . to buy the right M.2 NVMe drive . . .

 

[Redstorm]

I guess I'm going to find out, aren't I? NOW I feel better about placing an order for that 950 Pro. Just wish there was a 1TB model, although -- I THINK -- Plextor offers it for an arm and a leg and maybe even your "junk."
.

You know the 960 Pro is out this month? if you can return your 950 pro and get the 1TB 960 pro (next year a 2TB version is due) and its faster again.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/10698/samsung-announces-960-pro-and-960-evo-m2-pcie-ssds

 

[BonzaiDuck]

You know the 960 Pro is out this month? if you can return your 950 pro and get the 1TB 960 pro (next year a 2TB version is due) and its faster again.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/10698/samsung-announces-960-pro-and-960-evo-m2-pcie-ssds

That's actually good to know. I don't need to return anything: It was just a wish-list item in my budget and in the aftermath of the long-planned parts-purchase for the Skylake.

Some other time and with less experience, I might have pulled the string at checkout for the 950 Pro M.2, but I was very tight with my money this time. Good for me.

I started another thread to post an Anvil benchmark for a Primo-Cache configuration of the Skylake with the ADATA SP550 SATA SSD.

Take a look. I absolutely swear that I needed 3GB RAM just to score about 6,000 MB/s sustained reads on a Z68 system.

I'm-a gonna wait to watch those 950pro and 960 prices, and even keep an eyeball on the 600P. I think there IS a 1TB 600P -- I just can't find anyone selling it right now.

All this stuff is still so new, it pays to hold back. Anyway, it's also a good excuse to window-shop.