Questions on computer I built.

[leapingfrog0]

I built a computer for a neighbor. He wanted a fast setup mainly for internet/email, common everday computer tasks, occasional gaming, so this is what I got him:

Antec ATX Case (KS282) with 300 Watt Power Supply
AMD Athlon XP 2000+ (1.67Ghz) 266Mhz FSB (Retail HSF)
Abit KX7-333 (VIA KT333 ATX)
Crucial 256MB DDR RAM DIMM PC2700
Maxtor 40GB ATA/133 7200RPM
Teac 1.44MB 3.5?
Plextor 40/12/40A ATAPI
Asus V7100 Magic Pure 32MB (GeForce2 MX GPU)
Turtle Beach Santa Cruz
U.S. Robotics 56K V.90 PCI Internal Fax Modem
Linksys EtherFast Desktop 10/100 PCI Network Card
Windows XP Home Edition

Okay, keeping those specs in mind, I'm wondering if the computer runs at a good temperature or if it will need additional cooling. Right now it has 1 slot fan, 1 intake, and 1 exhaust fan. When the room temperature is approx. 80°F - 82°F (27°C- 28°C) the CPU idles at 123°F-125°F (51°C-52°C) and if it is under a full load the temperature settles around 136°F (58°C). When the room temperature is around 75°F (24°C) the CPU idles at 116°F (47°C).

Right now these temps seem nice to me, however, the guy I'm selling this to is not a PC enthusiast and probably will not dust the fans in his computer. Will the computer be able to survive 5+ years of dust build up (taking into consideration the current temps)? I think he runs his current computer 24/7 and the PC will be in air-conditioned environment.

I have an option in the BIOS to shutdown the PC when the CPU gets to a certain temperature, any ideas on a good temperature?

Also, the hard drive was running at 108°F (42°C) when I last checked (same room temp), is this good? I've heard Maxtor HD's run a little hot.

Thank you for the help!

Andrew

 

[Buz2b]

I think I would replace the retail HSF with something better. Considering the room temps, the current temps are not too out of line; especially since you are using the stock HSF. The good thing is that it will be in an air conditioned room. That will help. But why not spend a few dollars more for some insurance. Maybe put a slightly higher cfm front intake fan also. You can remove that slot fan too. Those don't do squat; no matter how much they claim for airflow. If anything it will defeat the purpose of the front intake fan's airflow migrating to the cpu area. The slot fan, if it really worked that well, would be pulling the intake air down away from the cpu. Anyway, that's just my two cents worth; YMMV of course.

 

[ai42]

You know adding higher CFM/more fans will only compound your problem, and build up dust faster. I say you slap the biggest slab of metal we like to call a heatsync onto it and use as low CFM fan as possible.

Also ducts work wonders, whey do you think so many oems like Dell use them so much. I saw an OEM that has a backwards air flow, it sucks in from the back 80mm fan ducted to the cpu heatsync. Then front fan blowing out.

As far as the hard drive you can pick up an aluminum hard drive cooler cheaply.

Also that seams like a pretty excessive system for internet/word processing. I know you put in occassional gamming, but I would have opted for a 1600 AthlonXP and up the video card.

 

[leapingfrog0]

Thanks for the replies so far.

I was thinking of getting a duct too, any recommended brands/models and where can I get them? It would be best to get one that blows on the processor instead of sucking air away from it?

Where can I pick up an aluminum HD cooler? Brands?

Yeah, I know the system seems a little extreme. He told me to build something fast for his $1500 budget. I focused on something that would be fast for image editing, scanning, digital camera use, internet, teenage use (has kids), etc. It should last awhile before it needs to be replaced. It lacks extreme gaming ability, but is completely capable of being sufficient enough for his gaming needs.

Thanks again,

Andrew

 

[Buz2b]

I disagree that adding higher cfm will "compound" the "problem". First, there is no real problem other than a bit of excess heat and your concern for dust. You handle that by increasing airflow and (in the case of the cpu) getting a better HSF, which I also recommended. As to the other part of the equation, why not add a Fan Filter on the Intake(s) to keep out the dust. I know you said he might not crack the case and clean it out as it should be done; at least cleaning an obviously dirty filter would be both quick and easy.
As to the HDD cooler, you can find one for as little as $2.99 (on sale) here.
In reference to ducting, that idea has some merit but will not be as simple as it seems. First, you will have to find a mfg and I'm not aware of any. I'm sure there may be some out there and perhaps ai42 may be so kind as to point one out. Most of the folks I have discussed this with here at AT have constructed their own. Are you ready for that? A simpler method would be a side blowhole with the aformentioned fan filter. I do it all the time with excellent results. Remember, you don't just have the CPU to cool and a hunk of plastic (duct) will affect your airflow in the case a bit. I'm not saying it can't or shouldn't be considered but the results can be a "mixed" bag. Also remember this; Dell uses this ducting system on Intel CPU's that don't require as much cooling. The rest of their case fills with dust big time. I owned one back in the P266 days and even passed it along later to a family member. One thing I had to do (and make them do) was clean out the case once every six months, as the dust inside was not insignificant. I'm sure they are better at it today but thought I'd mention it.
BTW, perhaps you might let us know how much more you intend (or have on hand) to spend of your ($1500) budget. I mean, I tried to keep it simple earlier, thinking you were at the end of the line with this. That's what I get for assuming.

 

[leapingfrog0]

Okay, so you think if I had a fan filter, an HD cooler, and possibly a new HSF it should be okay? The system doesn't really have *that* much of a heat problem right now, IMO. It's just when you add dust into the equation that I start to worry. I know CPU's can get quite hot before they have problems. I think he wouldn't mind cleaning off the intake fan, the bay the fan sits in snaps right off.

What's a good, cool heatsink? I know I would get something AMD recommended if I got anything.

I have Arctic Silver 3 thermal compound on hand, would the CPU run cooler if I used that instead? Right now it's using the thermal pad that was on the HSF.

Thanks! (bear with me -- I'm still learning )

(I have about $210 left in the budget.)

 

[Buz2b]

the bay the fan sits in snaps right off.

OK, a quick question here. Are you saying that the only intake is in one of the 5.25" bays? So, there is no "regular" 80mm fan for intake anywhere, like on the front of the case or side? Curious is all.

As to your question about HSF's. I'll give you some commonly popular choices:
First, on the lower cost end there is the Golden Gate 40. The fan is a YS Tech 40cfm fan that is pretty noisy but good quality. That HSF would perform better than the stock one.
Next, there is the Golden Gate Build Your Own. The same as above except you can choose your own noise/effectiveness level with the fan choices. Same performance depending upon your fan choice.
Then there is the AX-7. This was/is pretty much top of the line Socket A coolers until.........
the SLK800, your next choice. The SLK800 is the most expensive at around $45 and change. The AX-7 can be had for under $25 and the difference between the two is not that great. Both of those you would have to add a fan to. The Golden Gate is a good all copper, budget HS that includes fans.
There are those that might argue the assesment of the HSF's I am showing but not many. The AX-7 was and is one of the most popular right now and has been pretty much the top performer at it's price level and above. The SLK800 is a brand new release that has proven to best the AX-7 by a couple of degrees C. Either one would be an excellent choice. The Golden Gate would fall somewhere in between the Stock HSF and the AX-7. No, it wouldn't match the performance of the top of the line HSF's but do you really need to do that? Only you and your friend can decide that. BTW, you will notice that all of the ones I showed are from SVC. I do not work for or have any monetary ties to them at all. They are just a decent company that I have found to deal with. Many others have found the same. You can certainly shop around either on-line or locally for the same items from different sources. In fact, there are other choices on the SVC site also. I would also encourage you to read the reviews that are linked to for both the AX-7 and SLK800 on their respective pages at SVC.

 

[leapingfrog0]

Yes, the case has a regular 80mm fan (intake). [See Picture]

Hmm, the HSF I would *probably* get (if any) would be the Golden Gate 40, and if it's going to be noisy and perform just a little better than the retail HSF then I think I might as well stick with the retail HSF. So with that said, would a fan filter on the intake and a fan on HD be sufficient if I keep the retail HSF? What about using Arctic Silver 3 compound instead of the thermal pad that the retail HSF came with? Would that lower temps any? Would mounting a fan in a blowhole in the side of the case be benificial (should it suck or blow)?

Like I said, I find the temps right now pretty satisfactory, but when dust builds up disaster strikes

Thanks for your help Buz2b, I appreciate it .

 

[Buz2b]

Thanks for the pic, that clears things up a bit. HOWEVER, get that slot cooler out of there!!! You are creating negative air pressure right over your video card! A big no, no. Serious. I almost burned a card up once because of that. Yeah, it was embarassing...... Seriously, you need to either move that slot cooler down or just get it out. They really don't do that much, if any, good as it is. Actually, upon looking again, I really don't see any good place for it unless you switched it with the extra USB ports but even that could cause trouble in itself, drawing air away from the CPU/AGP area. Just ditch it; really. I know you're thinking it draws the hot air away from the AGP card but in reality it is taking away the fresh air supply from the heat sink and fan on the card.
Now, as to the fan filter. Unless there is a "blowhole" type opening in the front of the case, you might have a difficult time using a fan filter. It is meant to be on the outside of the case. It comes in three parts. One actually screws on the case and to the fan frame. Then there is the filter media. Then there is a "frame" of sorts, that holds the filter onto the part that screws into the case/fan frame. Clear as glass, right? Anyway, I'm not sure you can use the ones I was talking about. I suppose you might be able to mount it to the fan "box" that is inside the case but I have never tried it. The fan might not fit into the box then.
As to the Golden Gate HSF; there is of course no guarantee that it will outperform the stock HSF by a large margin. However, I think that $10 for some additional cooling is well spent. You've gone this far, don't pinch pennies now. If you don't want to go for the AX-7, at least go for the Golden Gate and a decent fan. Just my 2 cents worth.
Yes, the thermal paste will help the stock cooler a bit. Probably good for a couple of degrees C. Minimum of one I would think. Add a GG HSF though, along with the AS3 and you will probably be looking at 3-6C. Isn't that a pretty good "dust" buffer? Do you see where I'm going here?
Hey guy, you can certainly do exactly what you asked and you would make things a bit better. No problem there. And I would be happy for you. I just think you are going to need a bit better HSF; if not the AX-7, then at least the GG. But like 95% of the posts here on AT, that's an opinion. And YMMV as they say.
BTW, it looks like you've done a good job on the build. The wiring looks good and there seems to be a good airflow path cleared. Nice work! Just get rid of that blue slot thing. Don't worry; we've all done it. I have two perfectly good ones sitting in my parts box.

 

[leapingfrog0]

Okay, I removed the slot cooler. The room/case temp was 77 when I removed it and the CPU temp was 116F. The room/case temp went up since I removed it so I'm waiting for it to go down so I can see if there is any improvement in the CPU temp (maybe the removal of the slot fan was the cause of the case temp rise?). I've just heard so many good things about these slot coolers. I have this bias towards them that tells me they're good... at least right now I'll see what happens.

After looking at some reviews on the Golden Gate 40, it does seems like a nice, cheap, cool HSF, and you're absolutely right that I shouldn't be pinching pennies now. It will spin 1,500 RPM faster than my current HSF and using it with AS3 will be even better. I think I might go ahead and buy it. I'm a bit leary of the the clip though, I've never dealt with anything like that. Do you know if installation is hard? I defintely don't want to crack the CPU core. Also, would it add a lot of noise to the system compared to a 5300RPM fan?

Hmm, yeah, I'm not even sure if it would be possible to mount a filter in the case, but I'd really like one if it's possible (for my case too, I have the same one). I took some pictures of where the fan bay mounts and a picture of the fan bay unmounted. Maybe you can tell.

1. Intake Fan Mounting Area
2. Inside of Fan Cage

Thanks


Edit: The case temp finally settled at 77F, and I'd have to say the temps were about the same. It's so hard to say whether or not it makes a difference or not, when the case temp is 77F the CPU is at 116-118 regardless of the fan being in the case or not. So I guess it's a good decision to ditch it (less noise).

 

[Buz2b]

From the looks of the fan cage (pretty standard) you can't mount the filter on the fan; however, one way you can get around this would be to mount the fan directly to the metal "grid" inside the case. You would have to be able to get the front of the case off though and then you could mount the filter on the "outside" of the grid with the fan on the inside, attached to it. It would seem though that that would defeat the purpose of the whole thing that was making it something fairly easy to do.
Options: One way to accomplish what you need would be to go to a local hardware store and ask about some sort of filter media that is fairly thin (say a quarter inch thick or less). Then you could custom cut a piece to fit over the opening of the fan cage, with a bit of extra. You would cut small holes where the plastic tabs are and then put the material onto the cage when mounting the cage to the case. Keep in mind that you might have to get a slightly more powerful case fan to effectively pull enough air into the case through this filter. I wish I could remember the name of the filtering media I have seen others here use but I seem to have a "block" right now. Just ask for something like they use on forced air units. This method, if you use your imagination a bit can be very effective though.
Alternative Option: (requires some dremel or drill work) You could "lose" the front intake fan altogether and cut a side blowhole in the case right at the area of the CPU/AGP location; but almost directly on the CPU. This is the "intended use" of the fan filters I showed you; mounted on the case wall. The filter would mount directly to the outside of the case with the fan on the inside. This task is not a daunting as it seems and is very, very effective. You could just use that fan from the front of the case in this instance as the filter media on those filters is porous enough to allow for decent airflow.
You would just use the dremel (after tracing out the hole) to cut away the metal, then drill the screw mount holes and you're done! A quicker/easier way is to get a hole saw for an electric drill and use it to cut the metal. Then, as before, just drill the screw mount holes. It would be important to make sure the hole saw is rated to cut metals though. These side blow holes have been around for quite a while but I was always loathe to start "hacking away" at my case and especially someone else?s case. However, once I did my first one I saw how easy it really was and have been happily "hacking" away since then. A good idea is to cover the area you are going to cut with masking tape. It helps keep the cuts a bit neater and the case cleaner. Remember too that even if the hole is not cut perfectly, it will be effectively hidden beneath the fan filter (the hole is smaller than the fan frame). For a template, if you were using a dremel, you would take the chrome fan grill off the back of the case. Then place it on the side of the case and use a pencil to draw the circle around the fan grills own circle. Then you would flip the fan grill over and mark the screw holes for drilling.
BTW, you mentioned that the case/CPU temps settled to about the same levels after removing the slot fan......but did you check out your video card before and after? I know you don't have a precise way to measure unless you have a surface thermometer but a "non-scientific" touching of the surface would have probably told the tale. I'm betting it will run a bit cooler now that it can "breathe". Good for you losing that fan also as you said; less noise.
As to the sound of the YS Tech 40cfm fan, it is fairly loud. If you want a rough idea of the noise level, go to this page of fan sounds and find the Delta 60mm Black Label fan @ 37.6 cfm and 46.5 dBa, then click on the green arrowhead to the right. It will play the sound of the fan for you. They are rated virtually the same (close) levels of both sound and flow. I think the YS Tech fan has a bit "deeper" sound to it though; not as high pitched. Keep in mind that you don't have to use that particular fan either. An excellent choice would be the YS Tech 32 cfm, 40-dBa fan. It turns at 5500 rpm and would do an excellent job also. Heck, for that matter there is the NEW Arctic Cooling HSF unit on sale for like $15.00. Supposedly works really well and the fan on it is temperature controlled by the heat from the HS. Seems pretty (pardon the pun) Cool! I haven't seen any reviews on it yet because it is so new so I cannot tell how effective it is going to be. However, you can rest assured that it will be leaps and bounds better than the stock HSF that you are using now. I think someone said it would perform just slightly below the AX-7 level, which if true would be excellent for a low noise unit. Anyway, I hope I haven't confused you with all the "options" or strained your eyes too much reading this "book".
Maybe someone seeing this can also offer more options for you. Just what you need right? Good Luck in your decisions.

 

[leapingfrog0]

Okay, I searched around Google.com for a review on the HSF and found one. They're review doesn't recommend running it on a CPU that runs faster than 1.4Ghz..

The review is here, translated and all:
http://216.239.39.120/translate_c?h...oling+super+silent+pro%22+&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

I think I'm still set on the GG with a YS-Tech 32CFM Fan. I hope it has an advantage over the stock cooler. Here are the specs for the stock cooler, BTW:

http://www.dynatron-corp.com/products/cpucooler/cpucooler_model.asp?id=1

What do you think about the specs of the stock vs the specs of the GG?

I'm still thinking on what I want to do with the filter/fan issue. I don't really want to drill a hole in the case anymore, there is a handle indent right where I would drill the hole. I don't really wanna get rid of that. I might just skip a filter all together, even though I would really like one. I think a good "dust buffer", like you said, with a new HSF should be sufficient enough for the dust buildup.

Give me your thoughts, and then I think I'll go ahead and order the GG HSF...

 

[Buz2b]

As to the stock vs GG HSF, they are similar in size but that is about it. The GG is made of copper which is a better conductor than aluminum. Also, because of the same reason, the GG is heavier. Last but certainly not least, if you get that YS Tech (32cfm) fan, you will be moving over twice as much air across the fins as the stock fan. Sounds like a win-win situation to me!
OK, here are some reviews for you:
This one shows a good comparison and is fairly recent.
Another favorable review.
Just another.

I agree, it would be good to have some sort of filter media. Just get those imaginative juices flowing and see what you can come up with. If all else fails, just stick some on the inside of the case in front of the fan, like I suggested. Who's gonna see it?
I can understand you not wanting to cut a hole in the case. It's not an easy step to take at first. Took me a while to finally get over the nerves and try it. As to the handle indent, you could just move the hole slightly and still do it. That's what I have done in the past. But, if you are not comfortable doing it, I wouldn't "experiment" on someone else's case. Oops!

Oh, and that review about the Arctic Cooling, while informative was very difficult to understand because of the translation. I will hold off on an opinion until I see a review done by one of the "tried and true" places like Tom's Hardware".

 

[leapingfrog0]

Okay, I'm about to order the HSF... but before I do, would you recommend getting a copper shim with the order? I've never dealt with a clip like this before and I don't want to break the CPU die. I'd rather spend $2.99 for a shim rather than $100+ for a new proc. It won't add to the CPU temp or anything?

Also, do you think a hard drive cooler is necessary? Last time I checked the case temp was at 88F while the HD was running at 102, is this good?

 

[Buz2b]

I've personally never been a big fan of HDD coolers. Of course, I've never ran 10,000 rpm HDD's either. As far as my knowledge takes me, you don't really need one unless you have a 10,000 rpm drive. Now, keep in mind that ALL electronics will last longer if you keep them cooler. That's almost a "no-brainer". So, would a HDD cooler be a "bad thing" in this case: No. Would it be a "necessary" thing in this case: Probably not. Would it be a "good thing to do":............maybe. I don't mean to be elusive on this but in reality, this is a point where only you can make the decision as to what to add or not to add. I, personally, have never used them and have not had a problem. I have 7200 rpm drives or less. Would I be extending the longevity of my drives if I DID use them?? Who the heck knows?? As the saying goes, "You make the call!" I personally don't think they would be called for in this situation.
Basically, shims are, (again, IMHO) a waste. You have the four foam pads on all corners of the CPU that "protect" the die from being crushed in all but the worst situations. Yes, if you really crank down on a HSF hard enough, you can crack the die of the CPU. If you have the HSF a bit "off to one side" you can do the same. However, if you just follow simple precautions and make sure the HSF is centered on the CPU, the pads will protect the die unless you do an "Arnold Schwartzenager" on them.
There is also the fact that shims can sometimes actually increase the temps of you CPU because they conduct heat. Think of it this way; if you heat up the HS, which in turn heats up the shim (since it is in direct contact), then you can transfer some of the heat right back to the CPU.
Look, various tests have had inconclusive results as to whether or not a shim can increase the temp of a CPU. They lean towards the fact that they can and sometimes do. Even if they do, it is minimal.
Another factor to consider is that the GG HSF has a very "user friendly" clip. It does not require a screwdriver and massive amounts of pressure to get it hooked up. You can actually use your fingers if you want or you can actually use a screwdriver if you want. If I were you, (and I am NOT), I would order the shim and then try to mount the HSF WITHOUT it at first. Give it a good try. If you can mount the HSF without undue stress, ditch the shim. If not, use it.

 

[leapingfrog0]

Okay.. I didn't think an HD cooler was necessary since I've never seen one on any of the machines I've worked on, but I've heard from many reviews on Maxtor HD's that they run hot and sometimes need additional cooling. Just thought I'd ask It would also make the case louder =|

Well, I'm ordering the Golden Gate!

Thanks so much for your help, Bill! Hopefully I'll have the best of luck with your advice Now I've also got 2 slot coolers in my parts drawer, hehe.

 

[Buz2b]

Now I've also got 2 slot coolers in my parts drawer, hehe