Questions for the older ATPN crowd

[RichardE]

As being someone who is young (20) I have no experience with past political events and there reprecussions. A feq questions I had if you have the time to answer them.


1. After watergate, what was the actuall feel of the population at the time? I see what is happenin now and the laissez-fair attitude towards it, and am wondering what the reaction to watergate was compared to this.

2. Can you pinpoint a time/event that was the precurssor to the current apathetic stance on policts?

3. Have there always been the moral obstacles that we see today? Maybe not the same ones, different issues perhaps, but the same feeling that society is going downhill.

4. How powerfull was the cold war feel?

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: RichardE
As being someone who is young (20) I have no experience with past political events and there reprecussions. A feq questions I had if you have the time to answer them.


1. After watergate, what was the actuall feel of the population at the time? I see what is happenin now and the laissez-fair attitude towards it, and am wondering what the reaction to watergate was compared to this.

I guess that depends on what your take was. I was a Republican back then and liked Nixon. He was a good President and I thought he got a raw deal for what it was he actually did. I feel the same way about Clinton now. By and large though, most people were happy that "Tricky Dick" got busted and he did bring it on himself with his arrogance. LOL, much like I feel about Bush, now.

2. Can you pinpoint a time/event that was the precurssor to the current apathetic stance on policts?

Sometime before John Lennon wrote the song "Nobody Told Me" that says "Everybody's smokin' but nobody's getting high". See the lyrics here.

3. Have there always been the moral obstacles that we see today? Maybe not the same ones, different issues perhaps, but the same feeling that society is going downhill.

We're still arguing about abortion and gay rights, so i'd have to say yes. Everyone became disillusioned with the way the Dem's were running things and Reagan got elected on that very sentiment.

4. How powerfull was the cold war feel?

Very powerful. Even though I remember thinking that the Soviets could never make the Berlin Wall work, I still remember what a surprise/relief it was to everyone when it came down. Now we need a "evil empire" to replace it, so they made one for us.

 

[SMOKE20]

Originally posted by: RichardE
As being someone who is young (20) I have no experience with past political events and there reprecussions. A feq questions I had if you have the time to answer them.


1. After watergate, what was the actuall feel of the population at the time? I see what is happenin now and the laissez-fair attitude towards it, and am wondering what the reaction to watergate was compared to this.

2. Can you pinpoint a time/event that was the precurssor to the current apathetic stance on policts?

3. Have there always been the moral obstacles that we see today? Maybe not the same ones, different issues perhaps, but the same feeling that society is going downhill.

4. How powerfull was the cold war feel?

1) People were upset about the corruption in our Gov. for awhile but then shortyly, things went back to normal (6 months probably less) {at least where I lived}

2) Somewhere in the early 90's

3) Again, I believe that started AGAIN in the 90's but my parents swear it began in the late 60's.......

4) The cold war gave a feeling of unkown at times, but also a sense of unity in the country as well as pride. I can say that I always felt more secure then knowing our "enemy" than I do now not knowing whom the "enemy is or when/where he could strike or with what....

 

[OrByte]

good questions, and interesting discussion from a historical perspective. I wish I had something to add but im only 30. But I will throw something out anyway


Nixon was before my time.

I think that our current political apathy stems from the Clarence Thomas hearings back in the 80s. At least for me. For some reason, it was such a big deal and it brought out such trash into mainstream media. I think alot of people witnessed that and tuned out politics as a result. Downhill ever since.

There are always moral obstacles. I think issues change but people deal with morality everyday. As far as society going downhill I think this anecdote works best: When you are winning, everything is peachy-king!

I was too young for the major parts of the cold war. I only remember the Wall coming down.

 

[RichardE]

Thanks for the answeres, hopefully more to come.

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: OrByte
good questions, and interesting discussion from a historical perspective. I wish I had something to add but im only 30. But I will throw something out anyway


Nixon was before my time.

I think that our current political apathy stems from the Clarence Thomas hearings back in the 80s. At least for me. For some reason, it was such a big deal and it brought out such trash into mainstream media. I think alot of people witnessed that and tuned out politics as a result. Downhill ever since.

There are always moral obstacles. I think issues change but people deal with morality everyday. As far as society going downhill I think this anecdote works best: When you are winning, everything is peachy-king!

I was too young for the major parts of the cold war. I only remember the Wall coming down.

peachy keen?

 

[Future Shock]

Originally posted by: RichardE
As being someone who is young (20) I have no experience with past political events and there reprecussions. A feq questions I had if you have the time to answer them.


1. After watergate, what was the actuall feel of the population at the time? I see what is happenin now and the laissez-fair attitude towards it, and am wondering what the reaction to watergate was compared to this.

2. Can you pinpoint a time/event that was the precurssor to the current apathetic stance on policts?

3. Have there always been the moral obstacles that we see today? Maybe not the same ones, different issues perhaps, but the same feeling that society is going downhill.

4. How powerfull was the cold war feel?

1. After Watergate, many felt a supreme sense of revulsion...not just to the Republicans, but to politics in general. But Watergate WAS a much more vital crisis than what you see today - partly because there was no "War on Terror" to hide behind, and partly because there was just less MEDIA in general (so it could dominate the news), and lastly because we were just coming off the 60s tide of liberalism, a Republican was in power, and he was proven to be everything the liberals had warned about. And the media outpouring was of a lot higher quality than what we have now - THEY had the Pentagon Papers, Woodward and Bernstien, etc. WE have Anne Coultier, and Judith Miller....that's quite a downgrade.

2. No. I can think of some of the percieved CAUSES of that attitude, but I can't name a time when it just changed to apathy.

3. Yes, pretty much from the 50s onward, American society has had a general feeling of going downhill...which has not been entirely true, obviously.

4. Ahhh, the Cold War. The Cold War was SERIOUS, in a way that the War on Terror simply isn't. Read or see "On The Beach" (original version). See or read "Fail Safe". Read Kahn's "On Thermonuclear War". We were locked in a struggle for dominance of the planet, with the fate of all humanity threatened by the slightest mis-step. The 'disaster planning' drills to hide in the hallways of school with your head between your legs against the wall, waiting for the blast from a nuclear detonation in the nearby city. The Surface to Air missle sites, usually near metropolitain areas, themselves armed with active nuclear warheads on pointy Nike-Ajax missles. The continual thundering overhead of Air National Guard F-4s, SAC's B-52s in formation filling the sky with contrails on a routine basis. Our skys were BUSY with constant military traffic, in a way that seems very distant in today's world.

3000 deaths in the Cold War was a rounding error, something that you would ignore when you calculated the effects of a B-52 raid on Moscow.

If you want to know how serious the Cold War was, see "Dr. Strangelove", Peter Sellers masterpiece. Imagine trying to make such light on the War On Terror? You can't, because the WoT isn't serious enough to even make fun of.

I think some of the best comparison you can get is to read Tom Clancy's first two novels "Hunt for Red October" included, and compare them to the much less impactful stuff that he is writing now. The Cold War had substance.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts. I was borne in 1963, so I was young for some of this...but I do remember a fair bit. But my "experience filters" were those of someone a bit young.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Future Shock
I was borne in 1963, so I was young for some of this...but I do remember a fair bit. But my "experience filters" were those of someone a bit young.

Heck, you probably don't even remember the building of nuclear bomb raid shelters or where you were when you first heard Kenedey was shot.

A quick google search shows me that 1963 was the year JFK made his famous "Ich bin ein Berliner" speech. OT, but I found an article that states the last time GWB visited he was greeted with a banner that said "You are no Berliner".

I remember having air raid drills and fire drills when I was young, but I don't remember ever seeing the famous "Duck and Cover" Civil Defense film. Imagine watching that when you were just a kid.

Download it here

 

[CallMeJoe]

 

[CallMeJoe]

Originally posted by: RichardE1. After watergate, what was the actuall feel of the population at the time? I see what is happenin now and the laissez-fair attitude towards it, and am wondering what the reaction to watergate was compared to this.

Watergate reaction was divided: the Left celebrated the fall of the Imperial Presidency and the end of Tricky Dick's career; the Right was convinced President Nixon was unfairly hounded out of office by the leftist press; the Center was grateful for "Nice Guy" Jerry Ford to bring us out of the bitterness of the Nixon years.

2. Can you pinpoint a time/event that was the precurssor to the current apathetic stance on policts?

the ascendancy of the second Imperial Presidency, R. W. Reagan, with the disregard for the rule of law by a personally popular president (see Iran/Contra).

3. Have there always been the moral obstacles that we see today? Maybe not the same ones, different issues perhaps, but the same feeling that society is going downhill.

Since the Neanderthals bemoaned the loss of old-time values by the evolving new generations.

4. How powerfull was the cold war feel?

Very. I'm old enough to remember "Duck and Cover" drills and the Cuban missile crisis. Many Americans were convinced the end was near. It was much more involving than the current "everything changed Sept. 11" mantra.

 

[RichardE]

bump for night crowd

 

[Shortass]

Cool thread, for once I'm actually learning something as opposed to pointing finger arguments. Bump for the bump?

 

[jackschmittusa]

1. After watergate, what was the actuall feel of the population at the time? I see what is happenin now and the laissez-fair attitude towards it, and am wondering what the reaction to watergate was compared to this.

I lived in a heavily Democratic community at the time. Watergate was sort of the icing on the cake, proving how evil the Republicans were. We had just seen a Republican governer look like a fool trying to cover his ass in the investigations after Kent State ("I didn't know the NG had real bullits."), a Vice President who resigned in disgrace, and an end to Viet Nam that made almost no one happy. It convinced a lot of people I knew that the government was out of control. There was a short, but intense firestorm after Ford pardoned Nixon. (In hindsight, I think it was the best thing to do, but was pretty unhappy about it at the time.) It seemed to re-activate a lot of political activists who had been pretty quiet for a while. (Burned out after years of civil rights and Viet Nam activity?) There was a real call to "throw the bums out" and regain control of the government. I seem to remember a lot of us thinking that Carter was a pretty mediocre candidate, but at least he wasn't a Republican.

2. Can you pinpoint a time/event that was the precurssor to the current apathetic stance on policts?

I put this at around the time of Reagan's re-election. It was during Carter's term that I became firmly committed to being an independent, vowing to judge all issues on their merit. I had not liked Reagan when he was Gov. of California, and was amazed that he won the first time. I really didn't like him after his first term, and thought it unbelievable that he won the second time. I considered the general population to be fools and developed a kind of "what's the use?" attitude that lasted for several years. I never felt alone with that attitude.

3. Have there always been the moral obstacles that we see today? Maybe not the same ones, different issues perhaps, but the same feeling that society is going downhill

Short answer: yes, and there always will be. The issues have changed, and will change again, but politicians learned long ago that moral issues get them a lot of media time. They are also very safe because you can always call your opponent immoral if he publicly disagrees. Often hard to polish a turd, but easy to put one in a bright, shiny wrapper of "moral issues" that obscure's the contents.

4. How powerfull was the cold war feel?

Well, we were all going to die. I grew up just outside of Akron, Ohio, Rubber Capitol of the World, an obvious target in a nuclear exchange. Even in Boy Scouts, as we learned survival skills, we joked that we would not live long enough to use them if we were attacked. From the time I was in grade school, many thought that WWIII was inevitable. Our school basement was designated as a fallout shelter and my 6th grade teacher had to do the periodic inventory of our civil defense supplies. She picked a couple of us boys to help her move all of the 5 gal cans around so they could be counted. She also taught the class how to use the Geiger Counters that we had. I even asked my parents if we should build a fallout shelter in our back yard once, but was told it would not make a difference. (As I grew older, I concluded that people like my old man felt that having a shelter was an admission that you were afraid. He, and his buddys at the VFW, were not about to create a public display of fear. A lot of them had something of a fatalistic attitude anyway i.e. "If a bullit (or bomb) has your name of it, there is nothing you can do.")

I ate up books like "Failsafe", stories like "Foster, you're Dead", etc.. I admit that I didn't get it at first with "Dr. Strangelove". It was not till years later, on seeing it again, that the light came on.

 

[Caminetto]

Originally posted by: RichardE
As being someone who is young (20) I have no experience with past political events and there reprecussions. A feq questions I had if you have the time to answer them.


1. After watergate, what was the actuall feel of the population at the time? I see what is happenin now and the laissez-fair attitude towards it, and am wondering what the reaction to watergate was compared to this.

2. Can you pinpoint a time/event that was the precurssor to the current apathetic stance on policts?

3. Have there always been the moral obstacles that we see today? Maybe not the same ones, different issues perhaps, but the same feeling that society is going downhill.

4. How powerfull was the cold war feel?

As a 61 year old always interested in politics:
1) Watergate opened people?s eyes to corruption in government. Many were shocked that their leaders were not as ethical as the general population. Carter, a perceived religious person, was elected as a backlash.
2) This has been evolving since the Kennedy assassination. Many people believed there was a conspiracy or cover-up in government. The media influence has been the most significant event in the decline with it's exposing of many corrupt leaders and the actual working of the politics of compromise. Prior to the 1960's people generally believed that their elected officials were representing their interests or stood for something other than themselves.
3) Yes. The older generation always believes that the younger one is less moral and dragging the society down. In the 1950?s and 60's many believed Rock and Roll was communist inspired or the work of the devil.
4) Cold war feel was on par with current Middle East concerns. A certain segment of those in political power or wanting power need to use fear and an enemy to justify their goals.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: RichardE
As being someone who is young (20) I have no experience with past political events and there reprecussions. A feq questions I had if you have the time to answer them.


1. After watergate, what was the actuall feel of the population at the time? I see what is happenin now and the laissez-fair attitude towards it, and am wondering what the reaction to watergate was compared to this.

There had been SO much coverage, that frankly the mainstream public was sick of hearing and reading about it. Although I thought then (and think now) that Nixon abused his power, that abuse never seemed to me as threatening/alarming as what's alleged about the current Administration. I also think most Americans - even his worst critics - respected Nixon's intellect and abilities. Again, I don't think you'll find many Bush critics who respect Dubya's abilities.

2. Can you pinpoint a time/event that was the precurssor to the current apathetic stance on policts?

The older I've gotten, the more I've cared about politics. Right now - when it seeems to us on the Left that the abuses by the party in power are the worst in many decades - the relative non-concern of most Americans seems outrageous.

3. Have there always been the moral obstacles that we see today? Maybe not the same ones, different issues perhaps, but the same feeling that society is going downhill.

I don't think people are any less moral than at other times. People and organizations will act toward their own self interest, based on the current structure of laws and public institutions. To improve the moral climate, laws and institutions should be changed not only to penalize corrupt behavior, but to reward moral behavior. For example, a system that rewards a Congressman for "bringing home the bacon" is going to lead to pork-filled legislation. Somehow, the system needs to be modified so that behavior that we all acknowledge is bad for the country as a whole results in a disadvantage to those who engage in it.

4. How powerfull was the cold war feel?

I (barely) remember the October missile crisis (long lines outside supermarkets after families were told to prepare for the worst). It was VERY scary. That was as real as the cold war ever got for me. Much of the rest of the time, it was just background, with occasional haunting reminders of what could happen if anyone pressed the button. It could still happen; the missiles (albeit fewer of them) are still out there.

 

[CallMeJoe]

Originally posted by: shiraI also think most Americans - even his worst critics - respected Nixon's intellect and abilities. Again, I don't think you'll find many Bush critics who respect Dubya's abilities.

Even most Republicans of the day recognised Nixon as a dirty politician (his "pink lady" campaign against Helen Douglas was classic smear), but he was feared by his opponents because of his obvious intellect coupled with his lack of scruples. As disastrous as his domestic policies were (conversion of the "war on poverty" into the modern welfare state, his wage and price freeze to conquer inflation, domestic spying and the infamous "enemies list"), he had great strengths in foreign policy. Detente with the Soviet Union started the opening up of Eastern Europe (the true start of Soviet downfall, not RWR's "tear down that wall" speech) and, as Spock so famously said, "Only Nixon could go to China". The botched end to our VietNam involvement and the birth of OPEC (Kissinger/Shah affair, should be its own thread subject) were the only obvious flaws in his foreign policy legacy. The first was probably unavoidable, as no one I know had an answer for a good way out of that mess, and the second was a classic case of unintended and possibly unforseeable consequences.

 

[Spamela]

Originally posted by: RichardE
As being someone who is young (20) I have no experience with past political events and there reprecussions. A feq questions I had if you have the time to answer them.


1. After watergate, what was the actuall feel of the population at the time? I see what is happenin now and the laissez-fair attitude towards it, and am wondering what the reaction to watergate was compared to this.

2. Can you pinpoint a time/event that was the precurssor to the current apathetic stance on policts?

3. Have there always been the moral obstacles that we see today? Maybe not the same ones, different issues perhaps, but the same feeling that society is going downhill.

4. How powerfull was the cold war feel?

1. people didn't really believe the President could be a corrupt, lying hypocrite
about substantial issues until nixon paved the way. the press was not cowed
and the news was serious, rather than a pandering profit-center.
broadcasters were not pretty celebrities & you'd never see months
of "Natalee Holloway still missing in Aruba" trivialities.

there was a long, slow loss of support for nixon as more & more of
the watergate (& other) scandals came out. the support never came back
& people grew more cynical as the months went by.
agnew's resignation for bribery was a big blow, since agnew was always giving "law & order" speeches. there was a huge furor when nixon ordered the firing of the special prosecutor as people realized he was contemptuous of the law.
nixon had kind of a square, mr. clean image, so
his obscene language on the tapes, along with the fact that he & his
assistants sounded like conspiring mafia gangsters, made a lot of people
re-think their support of him, too.

2. Kennedy's assassination was a huge blow to the country that i can't
over-emphasize - hope seemed to die with it.
politicians began using appeals to fear (of crime, a codeword for "negro")
& narcissism to get elected.

3. what's been exposed over the past few decades is more the truth
about actual behavior and the hypocrisy of many of the people who decry it.
for ex., bill bennett writes & lectures on virtue while losing millions of $ gambling.

4. i wasn't especially concerned about nuclear war - the implications were so
vast that it was absurd to spend time considering them. politicians used fear of communism to get elected (you had to be more anti-communist than your opponent),
and to justify vast spending.

i'm nearly 51, btw.