Questions for all Engineers

[Jassi]

Hey guys and gals,

I am writing a paper on the role of Engineers in creating weapons used in wars (for a political science class). I have spoken to some Engineers irl but I could use more input. So, if you can, please answer these following short questions BTW, if you still a student, you opinion is still important to me so feel free to answer and if you are not an Engineer, feel free to share your view of our profession

1 - In an ideal world, what do you think is the prime duty of an Engineer?
2 - Same question but in the real world.
3 - When you were studying to become an Engineer, did your curriculum include studies of the negative effect that we have on society?
4 - Would you work for a defense company knowing that you will be creating weapons? If this is conditional, what would influence your decision to work for them or reject the opportunity?

4b - If you work for such a company, how do you justify it to yourself?

Thank you very much for your help,
Jassi

I'll start it off with my answers:
1 - Our duty is to make lives better for people accross the world.
2 - In the real world, our loyalty to the company and shareholders takes precedence over the duty highlighted in #1.
3 - No, all I heard throughout my schooling was how great Engineers are and how noble the profession is. Even the ethics class I took did not deal with this topic in depth.
4 - I would never, ever work for a defense company - unless the other option was starvation of my family but I would probably lose the ability to sleep peacefully at night.

 

[91TTZ]

Since you're asking about the implications of one's development work, I'll post what I heard in an interview with Dr. Edward Teller, who developed the hydrogen bomb. He was of the opinion that you can't stop innovation, so you might as well be the one who does the innovating. Talking in hindsight about the hydrogen bomb, he said that other countries would succeed in developing one, and in fact other countries did succeed in developing them on their own. You can't stop it from happening, and you can't put the genie back in the bottle. All you can do is make sure that you have it first.

Personally, I would gladly work for a company that develops weapons. By not doing so, you're not going to prevent those weapons from being made or used. You're only going to help your country's enemies get the technological advantage, and instead of your country possibly using it against its enemies, now you run the possibility of your country's enemy using it on you. I'd rather have the ball in my court.

 

[Booster]

Hhhmm, I'm not at engineer, rather an office worker. I never had any personal contacts with engineers and don't know what their work is. Would like to know. I remember playing a game of Dune and engineers there could repair and capture buildings. Of course I think that's not what they do in real world. To bad I'm too deep in this office crap and don't even know what other professions are about :-(

 

[Jassi]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Personally, I would gladly work for a company that develops weapons. By not doing so, you're not going to prevent those weapons from being made or used. You're only going to help your country's enemies get the technological advantage, and instead of your country possibly using it against its enemies, now you run the possibility of your country's enemy using it on you. I'd rather have the ball in my court.

And it wouldn't bother you one bit if your creation was used to kill innocent people (civilians)?

 

[BigB10293]

I don't work for a defense company, but I did have an offer from one coming out of school. I chose not to go with them more for money and location reasons than any ethical ones. I would actually consider working for one as serving my country and helping to protect it. Just becuase I would design and build something that can kill doesnt mean I'm responsiable for deciding to use it.

 

[Jumpem]

I've worked for a defense company, and will work for another. They are by far my favorite type of employer in my field. They are always doing interesting things and using new technology. Technologies like radar, satellite intelligence, gps, and military vehicles/aircraft interest me outside of my job.

I also think that it is helping the other items mentioned. By working for a defense contractor I am supporting my government, the military, and protecting my family and yours. It's the best job I've ever had.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Jassi

And it wouldn't bother you one bit if your creation was used to kill innocent people (civilians)?

No. I just designed it, that's my job. I'm not the one who misused it, that's their job.

If I made sporting goods and learned that someone beat someone to death with one of my baseball bats, am I supposed to feel guilty or something?

Do you blame GM when someone runs people over with one of their cars?

Likewise, if I made an aircraft that is meant to drop bombs on enemy troops, and someone flew it into a crowd of civilians, that's not my fault.

You need to differentiate between the tool and the person who yields that tool. The responsibility is in his hands. If I make a sword and give it to a soldier, the responsibility is in the hands of the person who yields that sword. It can be used for good or bad, but that's not my responsibility... my only responsibility is to make the best sword that I can.

 

[desk]

1. advancement/betterment of society
2. to make your company $$$
3. no, but we did discuss the responsibilities of engineering
4. no, i would not

 

[Landroval]

Even the most basic research could be used to harm, so it is a hard call. That said, I would avoid anything that clearly was intended to be used as a weapon. I did work in a such a situation before grad school, and even though I could see no clear "offesnse" I did find this question lingering in the back of my mind.

 

[esun]

I'm a EE/CS student.

1 - I agree with your answer. I believe the purpose of engineering should be to create the latest and greatest technologies, and to create them in such a way to push people foward, and to make their lives better.
2 - I disagree with you here. In the real world, my opinion would be that the previous goal remains except it happens within certain constraints.
3 - Nope. Then again, I haven't taken any engineering ethics courses, so that's probably why. I haven't heard this notion of engineering being a noble profession, though.
4 - No, simply because I'm not interested in that technology. If someday I did become interested in it, then maybe. I just don't see it as something particularly rewarding in general. I don't personally feel I'd have any ethical concerns over it, though.

 

[iwantanewcomputer]

i wish i could get a job at a defense contractor, that would be sweet

 

[rahvin]

As a Civil engineer my code of ethics dictates that I put safety of the public above that of my profession, career or salary.

 

[Aztech]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Jassi

And it wouldn't bother you one bit if your creation was used to kill innocent people (civilians)?

No. I just designed it, that's my job. I'm not the one who misused it, that's their job.

If I made sporting goods and learned that someone beat someone to death with one of my baseball bats, am I supposed to feel guilty or something?

Do you blame GM when someone runs people over with one of their cars?

Likewise, if I made an aircraft that is meant to drop bombs on enemy troops, and someone flew it into a crowd of civilians, that's not my fault.

You need to differentiate between the tool and the person who yields that tool. The responsibility is in his hands. If I make a sword and give it to a soldier, the responsibility is in the hands of the person who yields that sword. It can be used for good or bad, but that's not my responsibility... my only responsibility is to make the best sword that I can.

The difference is that the primary use of what you're designing is to kill people. It's not being misused, but used as intended, to kill people.

 

[Jassi]

Originally posted by: esun
2 - I disagree with you here. In the real world, my opinion would be that the previous goal remains except it happens within certain constraints.

Work in a company and you will see what I mean. If #1 was still #1 in companies, we wouldn't have so many problems with consumer products. In the end, the companies bottom line is king and all of the concern shown for the public is shown to avoid lawsuits.

 

[mercanucaribe]

I'm not an engineer but here's what I think:


1 - In an ideal world, engineers improve technology to serve mankind. Not to broadly make the world better, because engineers aren't politicians or activists.
2 - In the real world, engineers design stuff, but usually end up with boring jobs, making no innovations whatsoever.
3 - Null
4 - I would work for a defense company, not as an engineer obviously, but as a spatial analyst, remote sensing tech, GIS tech, etc . All technology, including weapons can be used for good as well as evil.
Remember, we wouldn't have the internet or GPS if it weren't for the military.
Of course, it's another thing if you're making agent orange or something like that, which has little potential for good use.

 

[Jumpem]

Originally posted by: Aztech
The difference is that the primary use of what you're designing is to kill people. It's not being misused, but used as intended, to kill people.

Those being killed by said weapon are almost always enemies of my country. Threfore, I have no problem with it.

 

[habib89]

Originally posted by: Jassi

1 - In an ideal world, what do you think is the prime duty of an Engineer?
2 - Same question but in the real world.
3 - When you were studying to become an Engineer, did your curriculum include studies of the negative effect that we have on society?
4 - Would you work for a defense company knowing that you will be creating weapons? If this is conditional, what would influence your decision to work for them or reject the opportunity?
4b - If you work for such a company, how do you justify it to yourself?

1) to recreate ideas and dreams for the greater good of humanity..
2) to recreate ideas and dreams... not that this is an ideal world, but their jobs would be the same
3) yes
4) yes.. money.. if someone's gonna build bombers.. why can't i build them and make the good money? that's why i studied for so long anyway, to design cool stuff
4b) money money money... and i'm not the one pushing the button.. i have absolutely no decision over that what so ever..

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: Jassi
Hey guys and gals,

I am writing a paper on the role of Engineers in creating weapons used in wars (for a political science class). I have spoken to some Engineers irl but I could use more input. So, if you can, please answer these following short questions BTW, if you still a student, you opinion is still important to me so feel free to answer and if you are not an Engineer, feel free to share your view of our profession

1 - In an ideal world, what do you think is the prime duty of an Engineer?
2 - Same question but in the real world.
3 - When you were studying to become an Engineer, did your curriculum include studies of the negative effect that we have on society?
4 - Would you work for a defense company knowing that you will be creating weapons? If this is conditional, what would influence your decision to work for them or reject the opportunity?

4b - If you work for such a company, how do you justify it to yourself?

Thank you very much for your help,
Jassi

I'll start it off with my answers:
1 - Our duty is to make lives better for people accross the world.
2 - In the real world, our loyalty to the company and shareholders takes precedence over the duty highlighted in #1.
3 - No, all I heard throughout my schooling was how great Engineers are and how noble the profession is. Even the ethics class I took did not deal with this topic in depth.
4 - I would never, ever work for a defense company - unless the other option was starvation of my family but I would probably lose the ability to sleep peacefully at night.

As a civil engineer, your work is suppose to safeguard life and properties of people (something like that)

 

[TitanDiddly]

Originally posted by: Jassi
Hey guys and gals,

I am writing a paper on the role of Engineers in creating weapons used in wars (for a political science class). I have spoken to some Engineers irl but I could use more input. So, if you can, please answer these following short questions BTW, if you still a student, you opinion is still important to me so feel free to answer and if you are not an Engineer, feel free to share your view of our profession

1 - In an ideal world, what do you think is the prime duty of an Engineer?
2 - Same question but in the real world.
3 - When you were studying to become an Engineer, did your curriculum include studies of the negative effect that we have on society?
4 - Would you work for a defense company knowing that you will be creating weapons? If this is conditional, what would influence your decision to work for them or reject the opportunity?

4b - If you work for such a company, how do you justify it to yourself?

Thank you very much for your help,
Jassi

I'll start it off with my answers:
1 - Our duty is to make lives better for people accross the world.
2 - In the real world, our loyalty to the company and shareholders takes precedence over the duty highlighted in #1.
3 - No, all I heard throughout my schooling was how great Engineers are and how noble the profession is. Even the ethics class I took did not deal with this topic in depth.
4 - I would never, ever work for a defense company - unless the other option was starvation of my family but I would probably lose the ability to sleep peacefully at night.

1. Make things to do things that humans cannot do, will not do, should not do, or do not want to do.
2. Do the above while respecting the almighty dollar and job security.
3. N/A
4. Probably will. Missiles.

 

[UTmtnbiker]

Okay, as an EE working for a defense company, I think I'm somewhat (errr, highly qualified) to answer this. I've been working for a defense company for almost 5 years now, and before that, about 5 years working in the commercial sector

1) First off, I don't think you can equate a profession with a "duty". That being said, I'll expound in #2. For what it's worth, my "duty" as an engineer is to provide for my family while doing something that I'm intellectually interested in.

2) The only duty you have it to yourself and what you are comfortable with and that you can wake up and look at yourself in the morning. It's very noble minded to say that as an engineer is to create a better place. I didn't get in to engineering to make the world a better place. I did it because it was something that I enjoyed and that I felt I could make a good living off of. Let's face it, engineering is a practical application. We're not in to research, that's for the physicists, scientists, and researchers. Ours it to apply that knowledge and apply it to everyday life. Most of us aren't fortunate enough to work for ourselves, so we'll always be put in the dilemma, be it defense or not, of working on projects that we find boring, stupid, or just plain wrong. It's at that point we need to ask ourselves if it's worth the paycheck. So...in short, the real world considerations are if the paycheck is worth the crap you put up with as an engineer.

3) In school, we've never talked about the ethical dilema of working in defense. As a matter of fact, it was probably the opposite as it was (and probably still is) considered a plum job.

4) To say that you would never work for a defense company is what I would consider short sighted and probably limiting your options. Believe me, I'm no rah, rah, rah, conservative believing that what I do somehow equates to defending our country and that what I do is keeping us safe every day, but on the flip side, without our technology the military couldn't accomplish its goals or the goals of this administration (which I disagree with, BTW). My job, and my company's job, is not to set policy. We are an instrument and part of the military industrial complex. It's up to the people we elect to decide how we use any technology or tool. It'd be like asking a soldier "how do you justify following an order to take a town?" or asking a software engineer who creates code that can be used for good or bad (packet sniffers for example). We're part of a larger machine and hopefully we can influence what decisions are being made. I actually think in this respect, we have more control on what we produce than in the commercial sector. At least, we're not beholden to the almightly dollar and we can at least voice our opinion every 4 years.

So, all that being said, I can say that I sleep pretty well at night. I don't necessarily equate what we design and build with killing people although I know that's happening. Do I feel bad about it? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I would like to believe that what we're building is a) saving American (and hopefully Iraqi civlian lives) while b) taking the fight to the enemy (terrorists) and snuffing some of those guys out.

Pretty long winded, but every industry, not just the military, has some socially negative impacts. You just have to decide what you can live with and what you cannot.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Aztech


The difference is that the primary use of what you're designing is to kill people. It's not being misused, but used as intended, to kill people.

He just said "civilians". It was made to kill enemy soldiers. If it kills civilians that's an accident. I have no problems with it killing enemy soldiers.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: Jassi
1 - In an ideal world, what do you think is the prime duty of an Engineer?
2 - Same question but in the real world.
3 - When you were studying to become an Engineer, did your curriculum include studies of the negative effect that we have on society?
4 - Would you work for a defense company knowing that you will be creating weapons? If this is conditional, what would influence your decision to work for them or reject the opportunity?

4b - If you work for such a company, how do you justify it to yourself?

1)Chem Es build weapons, Civ Es build targets?
j/k. More like "improving the condition of humanity through advancements in technology and new applications of old technology"
2)"improving the conditions of humanity through advancements in technology and new applications of old technology, while making filthy boatloads of money"
3)Not really, no. Usually if negative aspects are presented, it's the result of an accident "Poorly designed reactor exploded and spewed toxic waste all over".
4)I don't think so. Others may, but it's not for me.

 

[Evadman]

Ok, I am really pissed off. I wrote a huge long explanation, and it went to oblivion when I posted it. Fvck. The one time I do not copy it to the clipboard. Damnit.

Ok, abbreviated version. BTW, these are my personal views.
One horizontal line coming up. Please remove it if you quote me, because it will screw up the formatting of the quote stream.

[/quote]

1 - In an ideal world, what do you think is the prime duty of an Engineer?
To improve life.

2 - Same question but in the real world.
The answer doesn't change. See #1.

3 - When you were studying to become an Engineer, did your curriculum include studies of the negative effect that we have on society?
No. I do that on my own.

4 - Would you work for a defense company knowing that you will be creating weapons? If this is conditional, what would influence your decision to work for them or reject the opportunity?
I would. There was a huge paragraph here, but I'll me damned if I am going to retype it. Let me just say that my answer to question 1 is absolute (to me anyway) but I may view it differently than you. Long story short: I have a problem with how weapons are used, not with the weapon themselves.

4b - If you work for such a company, how do you justify it to yourself?
I don't have to "justify" it. If the job violates the answer to question #1 (which is a personal goal of mine) it doesn't happen; I go elsewhere.

Thank you very much for your help,
Jassi
No Problem.

Originally posted by: Jassi
I'll start it off with my answers:
1 - Our duty is to make lives better for people accross the world.
2 - In the real world, our loyalty to the company and shareholders takes precedence over the duty highlighted in #1.
3 - No, all I heard throughout my schooling was how great Engineers are and how noble the profession is. Even the ethics class I took did not deal with this topic in depth.
4 - I would never, ever work for a defense company - unless the other option was starvation of my family but I would probably lose the ability to sleep peacefully at night.

I disagree with your answers, as you could probably figure. I have what could be called a code of honor, or rules I conciously decided to follow in all instances. One is pretty much the answer to question 1. However, improving life by my definition may be a little different. Loyalty to company only goes as far as the company also goes by the answer to question 1. If the company I work for deviates, I leave the company at that instant. However, just because I left the company because they turned into gutless cowards doesn't mean I will go spouting off all their secrets or anything else I was privy to. That would go against something that I never do, and never will do, which is lying. If I come to an agreement with a company that says everything they do is secret, it stays secret, unless I have a duty to act, such as with legal issues.