Question to those who support/oppose removal of Confederate monuments.

[Starbuck1975]

The reason we have statues of Columbus, Jefferson, Washington & so forth isn't because they fought for the Confederacy to defend slavery. That can't be said for Lee, Davis, Forrest & the other heroes of White Supremacy. It's the only claim to fame the latter have.

Lee was a brilliant Army engineer and a hero of the Mexican War. He has many claims to fame, it is unfortunate he felt a stronger loyalty to Virginia and slavery than the Union.

Let’s also not forget that many Union officers were also heroes of manifest destiny campaigns during the Mexican and Indian wars. White supremacy was the undercurrent that gained us much of what is now the Southwest.

 

[Starbuck1975]

The sheer amazement here is that they are judging slaves who rose up and killed their masters for their inhumane treatment of women and children.

Let that sink in.

A complete ignorance of the generations of brutality and complete disregard for black women, children and lives in general. Yet the black folks are going to be judged for simply giving back what they got? No judgement whatsoever for the white slave masters. Nope. Just those black folks.

That attitude right there is a sign of deep seated racism that makes a white man unable to ever put himself in the shoes of a black man who just rose from generations of slavery, rape, murder and the worst inhumanity man has ever practiced.

Why can’t we condemn both the brutality of the French slave masters AND the brutality of those who revolted against them?

It’s worth mentioning that the people of Haiti assasinated Jean-Jacques Dessalines for the brutal military dictatorship he implemented, one that treated the freed plantation slaves marginally better than their French masters. Haitians only later revised his history as a symbol of the Haitian revolution.

Let that sink in.

There is no rationalization to justify the killing of children. Full stop as you like to say.

 

[Jhhnn]

Lee was a brilliant Army engineer and a hero of the Mexican War. He has many claims to fame, it is unfortunate he felt a stronger loyalty to Virginia and slavery than the Union.

Let’s also not forget that many Union officers were also heroes of manifest destiny campaigns during the Mexican and Indian wars. White supremacy was the undercurrent that gained us much of what is now the Southwest.

That's not why they raised his statues all over the South during the heyday of White Supremacy. It's not why they have statues of Jeff Davis, Nathan Bedford Forrest or any of the other Confederate heroes.

So stop with the bullshit. The North won the war but white southerners would be damned & go to Hell if they'd let black people win the peace. It was a giant fuck you to black Americans & still is.

 

[Amused]

Why can’t we condemn both the brutality of the French slave masters AND the brutality of those who revolted against them?

It’s worth mentioning that the people of Haiti assasinated Jean-Jacques Dessalines for the brutal military dictatorship he implemented, one that treated the freed plantation slaves marginally better than their French masters. Haitians only later revised his history as a symbol of the Haitian revolution.

Let that sink in.

There is no rationalization to justify the killing of children. Full stop as you like to say.

So what was the rationalization of centuries of white men killing black children? Raping black women? Enslaving them? Treating them worse than farm animals?

And what is with the expectation of a newly freed slave with zero education being some kind of humanitarian genius that knows how to effectively govern when all he has known his whole life is brutal slavery and oppression?

Sorry, but after centuries of enslavement and torture, I just can't feel the same level of disgust or outrage at their action than I do for the ones that preceded them.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

Lee was a brilliant Army engineer and a hero of the Mexican War. He has many claims to fame, it is unfortunate he felt a stronger loyalty to Virginia and slavery than the Union.

Let’s also not forget that many Union officers were also heroes of manifest destiny campaigns during the Mexican and Indian wars. White supremacy was the undercurrent that gained us much of what is now the Southwest.

Lee also hated the idea of monuments to the confederacy like these as he felt they would do nothing to help heal the divisions caused by the war. And yet there are so many tributes to him now.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Fact: Not a single slave involved in the Haitian revolution was sold by another black nor had any memory of any such thing.

I know that narrative helps ease the guilt of whites enslaving blacks. But it is, for the most part, bullshit and has no relevance on this topic whatsoever.

The only douche here is you. A racist douche trying to equivacate slavery.

Meanwhile if you're going to trot out bullshit about slavery, at least take the time to see how fucking stupid you look:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._and_irrelevancies_people_trot_out_about.html

What about your stupid slate copy pasta has anything to do with whom sold African slaves into slavery? And who said anything about Haiti detective dipshit?

 

[Amused]

What about your stupid slate copy pasta has anything to do with whom sold African slaves into slavery? And who said anything about Haiti detective dipshit?

I know following a conversation is hard for you, but the topic of this thread is the Haitian slave who freed himself, led a revolution and killed all of his oppressors.

Try to follow along better next time, ok?

 

[Starbuck1975]

Lee also hated the idea of monuments to the confederacy like these as he felt they would do nothing to help heal the divisions caused by the war. And yet there are so many tributes to him now.

I don’t disagree. I see no reason to erect or maintain any monuments that commemorate the Confederacy, but I do recognize some of its generals as historical figures

 

[Starbuck1975]

So what was the rationalization of centuries of white men killing black children? Raping black women? Enslaving them? Treating them worse than farm animals?

There is no rationalization. I said we should condemn the French slave owners.

And what is with the expectation of a newly freed slave with zero education being some kind of humanitarian genius that knows how to effectively govern when all he has known his whole life is brutal slavery and oppression?

It’s a bit racist to categorize them as brutal ignorant savages. Dessalines in particular served in the French army. Even more interesting, he was a slave to a free black man, and also switched allegiances in struggles that included both the French and Spanish.

He was well aware that killing children violated military code.

Sorry, but after centuries of enslavement and torture, I just can't feel the same level of disgust or outrage at their action than I do for the ones that preceded them.

If you read up on Dessalines you will find he is an interesting and complex man who was hardly ignorant of what he did.

You will also find he was quite harsh and brutal towards other slaves.

 

[MrColin]

I'm sure I don't need to detail either side of the debate about Confederate monuments recently. What I am curious on is people's opinion on the New York City Council's decision to designate a section of Rogers Avenue in Brooklyn as Jean-Jacques Dessalines boulevard.

For those unfamiliar with Dessalines he was the emperor of Haiti after they won their independence from France. One of the things he did was to order the murder of every remaining white man, woman and child on the island which resulted in the deaths of 3-5 thousand people.

New York has removed the few Confederate monuments they had after Gov. Cuomo ordered it.

Me. Put me down as against this. Curious what others think given that many who supported this view the 1804 Massacre as a legitimate response to the oppression suffered under the French.


https://www.city-journal.org/html/dessalines-boulevard-16086.html

I don't have any passionate feelings either way about any monuments myself. I don't think whitewashing history is the way to address atrocities of the past. In this case I am in favor of the street name because it opens the conversation about what all went down and why and people should think about those things and talk about them rather than taking a dogmatic political position.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I don't have any passionate feelings either way about any monuments myself. I don't think whitewashing history is the way to address atrocities of the past. In this case I am in favor of the street name because it opens the conversation about what all went down and why and people should think about those things and talk about them rather than taking a dogmatic political position.

I agree with that, but the Confederate statues -- many of them -- seem to have been erected as a special white-washing of history, and I purposely give that a double meaning. It's a local decision. I'm fine with it. But those Charlottesville demonstrators with the torches weren't by any means local boys.