Question pertaining to high school drop outs

[Starbuck1975]

The fact is you are negatively affected by high school drop outs. Just as the government mandates vaccines and drivers licenses for the greater good, the same can be argued for high school diplomas.

The greater good is often open to debate, and I am not comfortable with the notion of the federal government attempting to mandate policy for a problem that exists at the micro level. There is no doubt that high drop out rates have a negative overall impact on society...but the federal government is ill equipped to directly address the factors behind this problem. It is very much a grass roots, community based issue, and we need to first look at addressing the household and family related issues that tend to perpetuate the cycle of poverty.

Of course, no politician has the courage to lay some of the blame on communities or bad parenting or poor teachers...the gods of political correctness do not smile on those who go after the root cause.

 

[Phil21]

Speaking as a high school dropout...

No law could have kept me in school. Unless you were prepared to jail me and pay those expenses. Why I was so adverse to this, I can't really explain in a few sentences. Many factors were involved ranging from being bored out of my mind in school, depression, family issues, and probably simple laziness coupled with youthful inexperience.

Do I wish I had stayed in school? Yes and no. Yes, because doing so certainly would have made part of my life quite a bit easier for a few years. No, because I still know what a complete waste of time it was for me - I wasn't learning a damned thing. Doing busywork is not something I've ever been able to "just deal with" for better or worse.

I *DO* however wish I would have gone to college - which does more or less require a high school diploma (which imo should be looked at - why can't you test into a good college easily?).

I did take the GED test after I dropped out, which is complete and utter joke. Scored something like 98% on it with taking 1/4 of the time allotted (2 day test, had it done halfway through the first day). The questions I got wrong I simply was too lazy to really double-check, since I knew I had aced the rest. This isn't to brag - it's to say how utterly worthless this test is. I certainly was not at the pinnacle of knowledge for someone that should be graduating high school. I was honestly rather nervous going into it, since I knew I didn't really have the requisite knowledge on some topics that I would have had to have to graduate high school (for me, largely "advanced" math related subjects).

I then went on to start my own business(es), and 10 years later happen to be fairly successful hiring quite a few of you folks who have a college degree (no, I don't really look at degrees unless you are coming into an entry-level position). I will say, the high school diploma is entirely irrelevant once you have a few years of experience to list on a resume. When is the last time you were asked if you graduated high school for a professional job? When is the last time they actually checked? Even college after 10 years into your career path is starting to become irrelevant as well, and continues to be worth less and less as you gain experience in your field.

The thing school does though, is open doors, give you options, and make life *easier* for you. For this reason, I'll be damned if my son drops out Dropping out simply means you have to work twice as hard as the next guy to achieve the same things. and you close doors on yourself before you know if you even might want to open them.

Note I'm only stating the above for career purposes. A strong argument could be made that you pick up much more than just the skills to do a particular job in school, one that I would largely agree with wholeheartedly. I very much regret missing some of the social aspects of school, as missing those experiences has hurt my career and life satisfaction far more than dropping out has ever hurt me financially.


My two cents

-Phil

 

[0marTheZealot]

Originally posted by: Phil21
Speaking as a high school dropout...

No law could have kept me in school. Unless you were prepared to jail me and pay those expenses. Why I was so adverse to this, I can't really explain in a few sentences. Many factors were involved ranging from being bored out of my mind in school, depression, family issues, and probably simple laziness coupled with youthful inexperience.

Do I wish I had stayed in school? Yes and no. Yes, because doing so certainly would have made part of my life quite a bit easier for a few years. No, because I still know what a complete waste of time it was for me - I wasn't learning a damned thing. Doing busywork is not something I've ever been able to "just deal with" for better or worse.

I *DO* however wish I would have gone to college - which does more or less require a high school diploma (which imo should be looked at - why can't you test into a good college easily?).

I did take the GED test after I dropped out, which is complete and utter joke. Scored something like 98% on it with taking 1/4 of the time allotted (2 day test, had it done halfway through the first day). The questions I got wrong I simply was too lazy to really double-check, since I knew I had aced the rest. This isn't to brag - it's to say how utterly worthless this test is. I certainly was not at the pinnacle of knowledge for someone that should be graduating high school. I was honestly rather nervous going into it, since I knew I didn't really have the requisite knowledge on some topics that I would have had to have to graduate high school (for me, largely "advanced" math related subjects).

I then went on to start my own business(es), and 10 years later happen to be fairly successful hiring quite a few of you folks who have a college degree (no, I don't really look at degrees unless you are coming into an entry-level position). I will say, the high school diploma is entirely irrelevant once you have a few years of experience to list on a resume. When is the last time you were asked if you graduated high school for a professional job? When is the last time they actually checked? Even college after 10 years into your career path is starting to become irrelevant as well, and continues to be worth less and less as you gain experience in your field.

The thing school does though, is open doors, give you options, and make life *easier* for you. For this reason, I'll be damned if my son drops out Dropping out simply means you have to work twice as hard as the next guy to achieve the same things. and you close doors on yourself before you know if you even might want to open them.

Note I'm only stating the above for career purposes. A strong argument could be made that you pick up much more than just the skills to do a particular job in school, one that I would largely agree with wholeheartedly. I very much regret missing some of the social aspects of school, as missing those experiences has hurt my career and life satisfaction far more than dropping out has ever hurt me financially.


My two cents

-Phil

The problem with your analysis is that for everyone of you, there are literally thousands that don't even come close to any measure of success and become an absolute burden on society. More power to you for making it through, but be realistic, most high school dropouts end up flipping burgers or greeting WalMart shoppers, that sort of thing.

 

[Phil21]

I absolutely agree.

My point originally started out as more or less "good luck keeping someone in school who doesn't want to be". As mentioned, short of jail at that time of my life I'm not sure it would have been possible. Is imprisoning kids to force them to "learn" (which they will not do either way) really realistic?

I guess there isn't a good option here in my opinion. If someone wants to be a lazy jackass, they should be given *limited* help to turn things around when they make an effort, and if that fails let them starve. Sounds harsh - but in reality all we're doing is removing natural selection from the equation by subsidizing these types.

Could I handle that on a micro level of looking into someones eyes and telling them they will starve to death? No, I could not. But.. really, short of dire consequences like that how are we possibly going to get people to change? I was a part-time caretaker for a small apartment complex with section 8 tenants in it. I saw the entitlement attitude and how people live off "the dole" their entire lives - it's honestly not that bad of a life (for them). You have all the food you could ever want, enough money for cable TV, and some of them even had better vehicles than I did. All paid by my taxes

So.. I guess I'm posting more to babble than offer any form of solution. Making it "illegal" to drop out is just pointless in my opinion, as almost by definition those that are doing so could not care less about breaking the law.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: alicia
HI Guys

its true that the drop out is very high. But what the govt is doing in this matter. nothing
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What should the government do? I agree we should do everything possible to educate our kids, but forcing people to be somewhere they dont want to be is not a good solution either.

Kids don't know what they want. Why don't we let 8-9 year olds buy their own food? Why don't we let 13 year olds drive? It's because it's for their own good. I'd say, until you're about 22 or 23, you really have no idea of anything in the outside world.

Getting an 8 year old to eat their veggies is a far easier task than keeping a 16 year in old in school that does not want to be there without imposing on those that want to be there.. I agree kids dont know what is good for them until they are much older.

Many High school dropouts think they will be the next Bill Gates or Donald Trump because these people also dropped out of school. Most of them have no idea what sorts of menial jobs they will be stuck doing for the rest of their lives because they don't have any education. Sure, if you want to be an AC repairman for 30 years, then by all means, get a headstart by skipping your 3rd and 4th years of HS.

Actually for those that want to drop out, we should offer them vocational courses instead of seat time in normal education. Having skills like hvac repair, they are far more prepped for life than just getting a high school diploma. Plumbers, mechanics, hvac repair all make decent money.

No kid should be allowed to drop out of high school if they are able to complete it. You can't even make a decent living (99% of the time) with a high school degree, nevermind without it. Hell, it's becoming harder and harder to make a decent living with a college degree.

First realize what it means for everyone to get a high school diploma. For that to happen, we must dumb down that circulum so that the dumbest and laziest will be able to get one.
This is reason why we have high school graduates that get to college and then have to take remedial classes to learn what they should have learned in college. This is happening far to often.

The more education you have the better off you are in general. We spend too much time focusing on academia and and not enough time of vocational skills at the high school level, which leaves those not college bound greatly unprepared for the workforce.