Question on military morale in Iraq.

Moonbeam · Jul 1, 2003

Was listening to late night San Fran talk radio last night, the beacon of truth in the night, and heard about stories that the military is cracking in Iraq. I know how unreliable the left can be trying to magnify every setback as a sky is falling event, but the guy was talking about mutiny or revolt. He said there are numerous reports of top military people over there wanting out. Since the war ended they've lost 201 men while during the actual was only 58. They are bored, don't have a mission, and want out of the 117 degree sun and back home. It was said that Bush had been beating the Bushes in fifty nations begging for troops to come in so we can get out. We got like 160,000 we want to replace with UN professionals but got only 7000 and not till the heat is past. Anybody know anything about this? Is the military telling Bush they want out. Do we face another Viet Nam this time with the military leading the way? Maybe the talk show host was just on crack. He did say, however, the day, May 1, I believe, that when Bush said the war is over, he said it's just begun.

nallur · Jul 1, 2003

An article from today's Washington Post on how things are going.

I don't know about the mutiny part, but I do know Dubya has been begging for troops around the world. Last week he begged India and India essentially said not a chance in hell unless the UN gets full control of Iraq. Of course, Dubya's oil buddies don't want to give full control of Iraq and it's oil to the UN.

Bulk Beef · Jul 1, 2003

Your numbers are goofy, and for the record, Bush did not say the war was over.

Hayabusa Rider · Jul 1, 2003

Originally posted by: sward666
Your numbers are goofy, and for the record, Bush did not say the war was over.

The war will never be over.

lozina · Jul 1, 2003

Originally posted by: sward666
Your numbers are goofy, and for the record, Bush did not say the war was over.

neither has he actually declared war

Lucky · Jul 1, 2003

Originally posted by: sward666
Your numbers are goofy.

I'll say that again.

CaptnKirk · Jul 1, 2003

Well thank God it's not like Viet Nam, or a Quagmire, or Guerrilla Warfare

Or ot least it's not in Rumsfelds dictionary under Quagmire or Guerrila Warfare.

Just what does he think constitutes Guerrilla Warfare anyway ? Big monkeys fighting ?
He needs to get a REAL dictionary, not the follow the dots and paint by number one
that the Bushies keed changing their definitions in.
He may just be the worlds smartest idiot.

lozina · Jul 1, 2003

Thanks for the link Captn.

Yeah looks like Rumsfeld is a little too sensitive when it comes to terminology. I can't believe he refuses to call it guerilla warfare! What a stubborn old prune that madman is.

dictionary

guer·ril·la or gue·ril·la ( P ) Pronunciation Key (g-rl)
n.
A member of an irregular, usually indigenous military or paramilitary unit operating in small bands in occupied territory to harass and undermine the enemy, as by surprise raids.

Heed this man's words, Rumsfeld:

"(The Americans) should understand that Saddam is gone and the Baathists are not as strong as they think," said Sheik Fahran al Sadeed, who leads a tribe of thousands in southern Iraq. The shootings come "because the Americans aren't fixing things, and if they are not careful it will be Iraq united fighting against the Americans."

Bulk Beef · Jul 1, 2003

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: sward666
Your numbers are goofy, and for the record, Bush did not say the war was over.

Click to expand...

neither has he actually declared war

Well then, I guess we're not at war, so WTF are you people bitching about again?

As for the goofy numbers Moonbeam, there were 138 Americans killed between 3/20 and 5/1 (when Bush stated that "major combat operations" were over). Since 5/1, there have been about 60 killed, 20 or so from hostile fire, the rest to accidents and the like.

Iraq was and is a dangerous place.

CADsortaGUY · Jul 1, 2003

It sounds like the adrenaline "high" from the War is gone, as it should be. Does working in nasty heat suck? Yup. Does wearing big bulky stuff suck - especially with the heat? yup. Did these people sign up for this job? Yup.

The military isn't just a paycheck or free training - it is your JOB. I saw a picture on reuters or somewhere of a US vehicle with a carboard sign across the windows, it said "1 weekend a month my ass". If I could have kicked that guy's ass through the picture- I would have. You serve when you are told to serve - you volunteered for it - now you do it. Now before I get the "did you serve" BS tossed at me - I'll just say this: I did try to serve and was planning on it but was screwed by an Army recruiter. I did attend ROTC classes while in college but never enrolled in an actual ROTC program.(Recruiter kinda messed that part up

oops

) Oh and just a bonus to my story - I never got the scholarship that was promised either...yup - because the recruiter "forgot" to sign me up

But anyway - you presently CHOOSE to serve this country in the military - you aren't forced to serve. You want the reserve paycheck? Then you best be prepared to serve when the country calls on you. Basically - Quit Bitching! - It was YOUR choice.

CkG

Moonbeam · Jul 1, 2003

They just had General Barry McCaffrey on MSNBC calling the article a great one but reassuring everybody that the guy was in the wrong job. He says we need special people over there with language skills for three year definite tours and 1 year of real danger plus 10 years of occupation. I guess the spin meisters are out in force to spin this is no Viet Nam. Looks like we're in some serious sh!t. No mention of WMD from the general but lots of talk about the strategic advantage of having troops in Iraq and how much better the Iraqis are without Saddam.

Hayabusa Rider · Jul 1, 2003

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
It sounds like the adrenaline "high" from the War is gone, as it should be. Does working in nasty heat suck? Yup. Does wearing big bulky stuff suck - especially with the heat? yup. Did these people sign up for this job? Yup.

The military isn't just a paycheck or free training - it is your JOB. I saw a picture on reuters or somewhere of a US vehicle with a carboard sign across the windows, it said "1 weekend a month my ass". If I could have kicked that guy's ass through the picture- I would have. You serve when you are told to serve - you volunteered for it - now you do it. Now before I get the "did you serve" BS tossed at me - I'll just say this: I did try to serve and was planning on it but was screwed by an Army recruiter. I did attend ROTC classes while in college but never enrolled in an actual ROTC program.(Recruiter kinda messed that part up oops) Oh and just a bonus to my story - I never got the scholarship that was promised either...yup - because the recruiter "forgot" to sign me up
But anyway - you presently CHOOSE to serve this country in the military - you aren't forced to serve. You want the reserve paycheck? Then you best be prepared to serve when the country calls on you. Basically - Quit Bitching! - It was YOUR choice.

CkG

Most were under the illusion when they signed on that if they fought it would be for defending the country and preserving American freedom. Instead, they got this. Their bad.

Moonbeam · Jul 1, 2003

You shouldn't ask soldiers to die if you fear to say the reason why. You must never be so elitest ly arrogant as to take the nation down a path it would not itself willingly go. Bush is afraid of truth, afraid of democracy, afraid of the judgment of the masses. That is why he hears the voice of God.

Ilmater · Jul 1, 2003

CkG, you shouldn't feel the need to justify yourself if someone should give you BS about, "Do you serve?" I feel I have every right to say everything you said (and I completely agree with you) and I've never signed up for military service. You know why? Because I don't want that life. I'm not willing to take a check and be obligated to serve. However, those that do had surely better be ready to serve when that call comes up. If you don't like it, you shouldn't have signed the paper.

As for this topic, I think that we should leave and let the people there rot. If they're going to shoot at us and blow us up, then fine. Screw 'em. Let them be taken over by an even more ruthless dictator. In fact, for those in the South that were rebelling and shooting at our men, I hope Saddam comes back into power and stops by for a visit. I wonder how long it'd take before they begged America to come back.

nallur · Jul 1, 2003

Here's an article by a Vietnam vet drawing parallels between that war and this one.

Moonbeam · Jul 1, 2003

Maybe the sky is falling.

Bulk Beef · Jul 1, 2003

Maybe the sky is falling.

Maybe so. I did already point out that your figure of 200 men lost is inflated by 1000%. 20 lost to hostile fire in the last two months. Not to belittle the loss (and I'm glad I am not one of them), but that number is just not that high, and certainly not enough to qualify as a "quagmire".

And I think that the three universal constants are:

a. Mathematics
b. Chemistry
c. Soldiers griping

Moonbeam · Jul 1, 2003

Death doesn't just come by hostile fire, my friend.

Bulk Beef · Jul 1, 2003

330% then.

Moonbeam · Jul 1, 2003

It was a radio program. The host or my memory could be at fault. The issue for me is military support. Are we going to turn our troops into traitors if they disagree? We can see where Caddy's going, a symplistic world all written in stone.

CADsortaGUY · Jul 1, 2003

Originally posted by: Ilmater
CkG, you shouldn't feel the need to justify yourself if someone should give you BS about, "Do you serve?" I feel I have every right to say everything you said (and I completely agree with you) and I've never signed up for military service. You know why? Because I don't want that life. I'm not willing to take a check and be obligated to serve. However, those that do had surely better be ready to serve when that call comes up. If you don't like it, you shouldn't have signed the paper.

As for this topic, I think that we should leave and let the people there rot. If they're going to shoot at us and blow us up, then fine. Screw 'em. Let them be taken over by an even more ruthless dictator. In fact, for those in the South that were rebelling and shooting at our men, I hope Saddam comes back into power and stops by for a visit. I wonder how long it'd take before they begged America to come back.

Thanks, but I'd wager a pretty hefty bet that you'd be in the minority here when it comes to looking for justifications

I really don't like talking about getting screwed like I did because it just makes me upset, but it has some relevance to why I say what I say. I WANTED to join, and I probably would have been sent to Iraq. So basically I was willing to put my $ where my mouth is.

Hay- "Most were under the illusion when they signed on that if they fought it would be for defending the country and preserving American freedom. Instead, they got this. Their bad."

Umm.....It isn't the soldiers decision as far as "justification". They do what they are told to do, they knew that going in and were trained to do so. If I was that guy's commander(the one with the sign) - he'd have the proverbial latrene duty for quite some time. A "good" Soldier doesn't question his orders - he just does them to the best of his/her abilities. There is no check box for "I reserve the right to not serve if I don't feel like it" when you sign up

CkG

Moonbeam · Jul 1, 2003

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: Ilmater
CkG, you shouldn't feel the need to justify yourself if someone should give you BS about, "Do you serve?" I feel I have every right to say everything you said (and I completely agree with you) and I've never signed up for military service. You know why? Because I don't want that life. I'm not willing to take a check and be obligated to serve. However, those that do had surely better be ready to serve when that call comes up. If you don't like it, you shouldn't have signed the paper.

As for this topic, I think that we should leave and let the people there rot. If they're going to shoot at us and blow us up, then fine. Screw 'em. Let them be taken over by an even more ruthless dictator. In fact, for those in the South that were rebelling and shooting at our men, I hope Saddam comes back into power and stops by for a visit. I wonder how long it'd take before they begged America to come back.

Click to expand...

Thanks, but I'd wager a pretty hefty bet that you'd be in the minority here when it comes to looking for justifications I really don't like talking about getting screwed like I did because it just makes me upset, but it has some relevance to why I say what I say. I WANTED to join, and I probably would have been sent to Iraq. So basically I was willing to put my $ where my mouth is.

Hay- "Most were under the illusion when they signed on that if they fought it would be for defending the country and preserving American freedom. Instead, they got this. Their bad."

Umm.....It isn't the soldiers decision as far as "justification". They do what they are told to do, they knew that going in and were trained to do so. If I was that guy's commander(the one with the sign) - he'd have the proverbial latrene duty for quite some time. A "good" Soldier doesn't question his orders - he just does them to the best of his/her abilities. There is no check box for "I reserve the right to not serve if I don't feel like it" when you sign up

CkG

Tell the Nuremburg judges.

Corn · Jul 1, 2003

Tell the Nuremburg judges.

Awww, lookity here. Moonie has done drawn another parallel to Nazi Germany. It's so cute when that happens!

Perhaps when our soldiers are ordered to gas Iraqi civilian "prisoners" by the railroad car load, maybe you'll have a point.

burnedout · Jul 1, 2003

Question on military morale in Iraq.

Truthfully y'all, if I were back over there again during this time of year, my morale wouldn't be at peak levels.

CaptnKirk · Jul 1, 2003

And all this time I thought that the 'Light at the End of the Tunnel'
was a proctoscope.

Question on military morale in Iraq.

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