Question on healthcare/health insurance

[K1052]

To answer the question that was posed, true health insurance works fine as it involves proper underwriting, premia paid related to expected payouts, no coverage of pre-existing conditions by definition, et cetaera and its price would reflect that. That you think that under the current system some people get health insurance policies inadequate to what you think their needs are is irrelevant. Actual health insurance works where people treat it as insurance.

Again I ask where, precisely, does this actually occur?

 

[glenn1]

Again I ask where, precisely, does this actually occur?

Nowhere ever in the history of mankind I suppose. Such policies surely don't exist. Like earthquake insurance or flood insurance, underwritten health insurance is simply imaginary. It's akin to unicorns for you just like transgender folks are for evangelicals, just some scary story someone made up.

IOW, since you are not being honest about the question so why do you give a crap about the answer? It would save us all time and be far more honest to say you dislike actual health insurance because you simply want universal government paid healthcare or whatever. That's a perfectly reasonable position to take. Much more so than denying a type of insurance that's been around for decades "doesn't work anywhere in the world."

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I do want to acknowledge Glenn has slightly evolved on healthcare. I can at least agree with him in principle. Glenn this isn't meant to be an insult it's ok to have your opinions change over time or evolve when things change

 

[K1052]

Nowhere ever in the history of mankind I suppose. Such policies surely don't exist. Like earthquake insurance or flood insurance, underwritten health insurance is simply imaginary. It's akin to unicorns for you just like transgender folks are for evangelicals, just some scary story someone made up.

IOW, since you are not being honest about the question so why do you give a crap about the answer? It would save us all time and be far more honest to say you dislike actual health insurance because you simply want universal government paid healthcare or whatever. That's a perfectly reasonable position to take. Much more so than denying a type of insurance that's been around for decades "doesn't work anywhere in the world."

true health insurance works fine

This is the statement I want to see some examples of. This should be relatively simple. Also, let's define "fine" for the purposes of this argument. I'm thinking your definition wouldn't match most people's definition.

 

[glenn1]

This is the statement I want to see some examples of. This should be relatively simple. Also, let's define "fine" for the purposes of this argument. I'm thinking your definition wouldn't match most people's definition.

I purchased a term policy catastrophic health insurance plan years ago and it worked exactly as intended.

To your larger point, American healthcare doesn't represent insurance but rather prepaid medical expense accounts, that's my whole point. Insurance has a definition and it doesn't change because most people misuse the term. What you're doing is the equivalent of saying "give an example of where communism succeeded" and refusing to acknowledge the USSR, et cetera were socialist and not communist. Just because people misuse both terms "health insurance" and "communism" doesn't mean you can't acknowledge their actual true meanings.

 

[theeedude]

I am OK with retaining private insurance under one condition, if the private insurance won't insure someone for 20% of after tax income or less, they become automatically eligible to buy into Medicare for that much.

 

[ch33zw1z]

20%, IMO, is too high.

 

[K1052]

I purchased a term policy catastrophic health insurance plan years ago and it worked exactly as intended.

To your larger point, American healthcare doesn't represent insurance but rather prepaid medical expense accounts, that's my whole point. Insurance has a definition and it doesn't change because most people misuse the term. What you're doing is the equivalent of saying "give an example of where communism succeeded" and refusing to acknowledge the USSR, et cetera were socialist and not communist. Just because people misuse both terms "health insurance" and "communism" doesn't mean you can't acknowledge their actual true meanings.

The concept of health insurance as we know is still sold, in no small part, on that basis though particularly to people who think they won't have much use of it. Years ago lots of catastrophic plans were sold but unfortunately a lot of them either were expensive or weren't worth jack since the company it was purchased from didn't want to pay out even plainly valid claims and many successfully avoided doing so. I would not describe that as an adequately functioning insurance market.

As to your catastrophic health insurance/HSA/poor clinic tripod that you'd like to see you are aware that over half the country could never afford to save much (if anything) to HSAs right? Also poor people won't just need clinics. They'll need hospitals, nursing homes, rehab facilities, access to specialized care, etc.

 

[theeedude]

20%, IMO, is too high.

Of after tax income, not too high given health care is 17% of GDP. And it caps the worst case financial exposure, while leaving room for private insurance to survive. Once GOP establshhes these high risk death pools and creates a crisis, Democrats should run on adding a Medicare option for them.

 

[theeedude]

HSA is just another tax shelter. A lot of people who have HSA treat it as another 401k.

 

[ch33zw1z]

HSA is bullshit. You need a huge head start to make it work. Like, save your first 50 years on earth, so you can afford to cover your bills from 50+

 

[TheVrolok]

HSA is just another tax shelter. A lot of people who have HSA treat it as another 401k.

HSA is bullshit. You need a huge head start to make it work. Like, save your first 50 years on earth, so you can afford to cover your bills from 50+

These. Honestly, I almost wish I had a HDHP just so I could have access to a HSA. Would be nice to have yet another tax shelter. This having nothing to do with actual health care.

 

[ch33zw1z]

It isn't a tax shelter if you have medical bills and deplete the HSA every year...which in my experience is guaranteed

 

[glenn1]

HSA is just another tax shelter. A lot of people who have HSA treat it as another 401k.

If you're young and healthy than why would you want to give high five figures worth of money to insurance companies to pay for medical care you almost certainly won't use? Especially when a lot of the mandated coverage might be things you by definition wouldn't use, such as mammograms for a 20 year old male? This again goes back to the original question posed, if you want true health insurance (for risk shifting and other purposes of insurance) then something like Obamacare is terrible and you ought to encourage high deductible plans and HSAs like I said with government filling the needs for the poor.

If you instead want "health insurance" (the current screwed up employer subsidized pre-paid healthcare delivery system we have in place now) and simply want to modify it to skim money off one group of people to pay for the care of another set of people then Obamacare is still pretty terrible; stop fvcking around with things and just increase income taxes and have the feds pay for poor people's care directly. Please stop taking the current dysfunctional system and making it incredibly more dysfunctional to meet some political objective you could meet much more directly.

Even if you still supported Obamacare due to whatever poor economic decision making framework you used, can you please explain to me why you would want to create a medical version of the "military-industrial complex" but with 5-6 times the share of GDP at stake?

 

[PricklyPete]

HSA is just another tax shelter. A lot of people who have HSA treat it as another 401k.

I LOVE my HSA...and you are correct.

 

[zinfamous]

HSA is just another tax shelter. A lot of people who have HSA treat it as another 401k.

Yes, I wish I had access to an HSA, but my insurance is primo.

 

[dainthomas]

Where on planet Earth does market based heath insurance work?

The glorious republic of Libertopia!

 

[biostud]

Doesn't seems to be very cost effective...

 

[ch33zw1z]

Oh no, we're just gonna be fine now that the Cons have a go at it.

 

[theeedude]

If you're young and healthy than why would you want to give high five figures worth of money to insurance companies to pay for medical care you almost certainly won't use? Especially when a lot of the mandated coverage might be things you by definition wouldn't use, such as mammograms for a 20 year old male? This again goes back to the original question posed, if you want true health insurance (for risk shifting and other purposes of insurance) then something like Obamacare is terrible and you ought to encourage high deductible plans and HSAs like I said with government filling the needs for the poor.

If you instead want "health insurance" (the current screwed up employer subsidized pre-paid healthcare delivery system we have in place now) and simply want to modify it to skim money off one group of people to pay for the care of another set of people then Obamacare is still pretty terrible; stop fvcking around with things and just increase income taxes and have the feds pay for poor people's care directly. Please stop taking the current dysfunctional system and making it incredibly more dysfunctional to meet some political objective you could meet much more directly.

Even if you still supported Obamacare due to whatever poor economic decision making framework you used, can you please explain to me why you would want to create a medical version of the "military-industrial complex" but with 5-6 times the share of GDP at stake?

I think that direct universal single payer is the way to go in America. But highly regulated private health insurance with individual mandate seems to work well for some countries too, so it was worth a shot in the US, especially since it was the last Republican universal health care idea standing as a counter-argument to universal single payer.

 

[nickqt]

Single payer for all, with tax deductions for meeting health goals, i.e. not smoking, lab levels being WNL, low(er) body fat %, gym membership, etc.

Private health insurance with tax deductions for having "extra", "self-paid" health care insurance that saves tax dollars if and when it is used.