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Question for everyone . . . how much will the kidnapping and torture of the innocent be worth?

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
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You may remember Arar is the guy kidnapped in NY by US intelligence. Despite the fact he was carrying a Canadian passport, they sent the guy to Syria (via Jordan) where he was detained, beaten with electrical cables, and then released a year later. He sued the US government but the Bushistas invoked 'national security' in an attempt to hide violations of international treaties (and by definition US law).

http://dwb.newsobserver.com/24hour/world/story/3375769p-12419685c.html

Syrian-born Maher Arar was exonerated of all suspicion of terrorist activity by the 2 1/2-year commission of inquiry into his case, which urged the Canadian government to offer him financial compensation. Arar is perhaps the world's best-known case of extraordinary rendition - the U.S. transfer of foreign terror suspects to third countries without court approval.

"I am able to say categorically that there is no evidence to indicate that Mr. Arar has committed any offense or that his activities constitute a threat to the security of Canada," Justice Dennis O'Connor said Monday in a three-volume report on the findings of the inquiry, part of which was made public.
O'Connor criticized the U.S. and recommended that Ottawa file formal protests with both Washington and the Syrian government over Arar's treatment.
---
U.S. and Syrian officials refused to cooperate with the Canadian inquiry.
Something the US and Syria can agree upon . . . violations of international law and basic human rights should be kept on the DL.

The RCMP asked the U.S. to put Arar on a watch list as an "Islamic extremist individual" suspected of links to the al-Qaida terrorist movement, the report said.

The request was issued after Arar met with another man who was under surveillance, a meeting Arar has said was about how to find inexpensive computer equipment.

"The RCMP had no basis for this description, which had the potential to create serious consequences for Mr. Arar in light of American attitudes and practices," the report said.
This guy paid a heavy price for trying to avoid shipping from TigerDirect.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,510
3,264
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But imagine if they had saved us from his plot to blow up the Brooklyn Bridge. You have to break a few eggs to make an omelet, no? It's not like the guy was a white man and a Christian.

Keeping America safe is not a job for wimps. Only a very insignificant number of people realize there are things worth dying for, like ones own personal integrity. The rest of us normal people would gladly do anything to stay alive. Torture is perfectly acceptable to us because we have no core virtue. F@ck morality, I want to stay alive and I don't care how. So what if it makes me scum and sh!t, so long as I'm the one alive. That phony pretense of a Christian bastard Bush, is my satanic kind of guy.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,510
3,264
126
Originally posted by: Todd33
More here: http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0919/dailyUpdate.html

The report also says that the Canadian government also tried to smear Arar after his return, releasing "confidential and sometimes inaccurate information about the case to the media for the purpose of damaging Mr. Arar's reputation or protecting their self-interest or government interests."
Are you saying the reputation of a few Canadian officials and the confidence of the Canadian people in authority isn't worth smearing the reputation of some guy with a name like Arar? No my friend, all a country has is its reputation and it must be zelously guarded, no?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
67,830
2,928
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He certainly deserves a few $million IMO. Although money can never be a satisfactory substitute for what he went through.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
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The most common argument given for extraordinary renditions was the lack of translators to properly interrogate suspects.

So . . . don't we have anyone that speaks Canadian?
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,268
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Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
The most common argument given for extraordinary renditions was the lack of translators to properly interrogate suspects.

So . . . don't we have anyone that speaks Canadian?
I speak Canadian, aye?

I'd call this a case of governments behaiving badly. And it looks like all three governments were guilty of doing something wrong. Why the hell are we sending anyone to Syria anyway?

A special thanks to the Syrian government for showing us what torture really is "beatings and whippings with electrical cables."
 

imported_Aelius

Golden Member
Apr 25, 2004
1,988
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Smearing people as much as possible to damage credibility appears to be standard practice at all levels of government. Just my opinion based my own experience working for the Ontario Government. I have seen first hand what they can do to someone very competent that stands up for themselves. Usually it's the very incompetent save asses that do the dirty work.

Although that's at the rank and file level so take this with a grain of salt. Afteral it's only my experience, although dozens of people I regularly talked to from various ministries claimed the same occured there.

Personally I think the problem is systemic. If they are willing to crucify one of their own and loose a good person even just to save face you can just imagine what they would do to an person off the street.

I also think this problem is systemic under any government body. It's not necessarily a vast majority of people, but rather a few that start it and everyone else, like sheep, follows through.

Again, just from what I seen in a few years of working in such an environment.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,505
3,008
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Originally posted by: sandorski
He certainly deserves a few $million IMO. Although money can never be a satisfactory substitute for what he went through.
A revolution to ensure it never happens again would be a solid beginning for reparations.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
67,830
2,928
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Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: sandorski
He certainly deserves a few $million IMO. Although money can never be a satisfactory substitute for what he went through.
A revolution to ensure it never happens again would be a solid beginning for reparations.
You first.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
The most common argument given for extraordinary renditions was the lack of translators to properly interrogate suspects.

So . . . don't we have anyone that speaks Canadian?
I speak Canadian, aye?

I'd call this a case of governments behaiving badly. And it looks like all three governments were guilty of doing something wrong. Why the hell are we sending anyone to Syria anyway?

A special thanks to the Syrian government for showing us what torture really is "beatings and whippings with electrical cables."
Merc News
GENEVA - The U.S. Army will prohibit "water-boarding" - the controversial practice of submerging a prisoner's head in water in an effort to make him talk - when it issues its new interrogation manual, the State Department's legal adviser told the U.N. Committee Against Torture on Monday.
---
Water-boarding was among several harsh interrogation techniques reportedly sanctioned by a Justice Department memo written in August 2002. Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld in December 2002 approved the use of techniques that induced the sensation of drowning among 17 practices implemented at the prison at the American naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Rumsfeld rescinded his approval of those techniques six weeks later after Defense Department attorneys objected, and U.S. officials have said that detainees have been treated humanely.

But reports that CIA interrogators were using the technique have persisted.
Do you wonder why we need 'secret' prisons, eh?

Defense Tech

ahole Yoo
The Senate and Congress' decisions provided the basis for the Justice Department's definition of torture:

"Physical pain amounting to torture must be equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death. For purely mental pain or suffering to amount to torture (under U.S. law), it must result in significant psychological harm of significant duration, e.g., lasting for months or even years. . . . We conclude that the statute, taken as a whole, makes plain that it prohibits only extreme acts.''
So solitary confinement for months at a time . . . happens at Gitmo . . . who doesn't consider that extreme.

Waterboard . . . much? But maybe you're right . . . maybe we don't torture . . . but we do everything else.

Not only does the very text of the convention recognize the difference between cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment and torture, but the United States clearly chose to criminalize only torture.
It's hard to believe this guy is actually a scholar of law. Some how the US signed on to a treaty banning torture, cruel, inhumane, and degrading treatment . . . but only torture is prohibited under US law?:confused:
 

wirelessenabled

Platinum Member
Feb 5, 2001
2,190
41
91
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Bush and his admin need to be brought to trial for war crimes.

Vote for anybody but a Republican in Nov and that becomes a real possiblilty. With Frist and Hastert at the head of Congress Bush could send anthrax letters from the White House with his return address and nothing would transpire.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Administrator
Oct 9, 1999
35,052
28
86
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Bush and his admin need to be brought to trial for war crimes.
... and be extraordinarily rendered to some secret CIA prison and waterboarded for a few years. It may be better PR than any money we could pay his victims.

While they're at it, make sure they take Cheney, Rove, Wolfowitz, Feif, et al.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Bush and his admin need to be brought to trial for war crimes.

In Iraq or better still in Iran... and send Saddam here for trial.. so that fairness can prevail..
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
11,710
1,015
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
The most common argument given for extraordinary renditions was the lack of translators to properly interrogate suspects.

So . . . don't we have anyone that speaks Canadian?
I speak Canadian, aye?

I'd call this a case of governments behaiving badly. And it looks like all three governments were guilty of doing something wrong. Why the hell are we sending anyone to Syria anyway?

A special thanks to the Syrian government for showing us what torture really is "beatings and whippings with electrical cables."
I suspect that there is a lot more cooperation between the US and Syrian governments than either government would want to have be public knowledge. Syria is (essentially) a secular government that is probably terrified of radical Islamics getting a foothold in their country.

 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,547
0
76
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
GENEVA - The U.S. Army will prohibit "water-boarding" - the controversial practice of submerging a prisoner's head in water in an effort to make him talk - when it issues its new interrogation manual, the State Department's legal adviser told the U.N. Committee Against Torture on Monday.
---
Water-boarding was among several harsh interrogation techniques reportedly sanctioned by a Justice Department memo written in August 2002. Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld in December 2002 approved the use of techniques that induced the sensation of drowning among 17 practices implemented at the prison at the American naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
just an FYI, modern water-boarding does NOT involve "submerging a prisoner's head in water"...

The modern practice of waterboarding, characterized in 2005 by former CIA director Porter J. Goss as a "professional interrogation technique"[1], involves tying the victim to a board with the head lower than the feet so that he or she is unable to move. A piece of cloth is held tightly over the face, and water is poured onto the cloth. Breathing is extremely difficult and the victim will be in fear of imminent death by asphyxiation. However, it is relatively difficult to aspirate a large amount of water since the lungs are higher than the mouth, and the victim is unlikely to actually die if this is done by skilled practitioners. Journalists Brian Ross and Richard Esposito described the CIA's waterboarding technique as follows:

The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt. According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last over two minutes before begging to confess.
Source
I just thought you should all know... I'm not condoning the practice by any means... just clarifying what it actually is. The article that Doc quoted was wrong unless they were referring to the water-torture performed centuries ago...

and another note:
On September 6, 2006, the United States Department of Defense released a revised Army Field Manual entitled Human Intelligence Collector Operations that prohibits the use of waterboarding by U.S. military personnel. The revised manual was adopted amid widespread criticism of U.S. handling of prisoners in the War on Terrorism, and prohibits other practices in addition to waterboarding. The revised manual applies to U.S. military personnel, and as such does not apply to the practices of the CIA.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
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Take note . . . I actually read links . . . it's that damn intellectual curiosity you know.:D I stand corrected to the extent my previous excerpts did not properly characterize the waterboard practice. From your link to Wiki . . .

Journalists Brian Ross and Richard Esposito described the CIA's waterboarding technique as follows:

The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt. According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last over two minutes before begging to confess.[2]
The gag reflex kicks in b/c you cannot breathe! KSM lasted for over two minutes b/c he was holding his breath. Depending on the disposition of the interrogator and will of the individual, it is indeed a procedure that will cause some one to asphyxiate (particularly if they've eaten leading to reflux) or at a minimum create the terror of asphyxiation. No matter what you call it . . . most decent people would think that's cruel.

In the United States, military personnel are taught this technique, ostensibly to demonstrate how to resist enemy interrogations in the event of capture. According to Salon.com, SERE instructors shared their torture techniques with interrogators at the Guantanamo Bay detainment camp.[3]

Dr. Allen Keller, the director of the Bellevue/N.Y.U. Program for Survivors of Torture, has treated "a number of people" who had been subjected to forms of near-asphyxiation, including waterboarding. An interview for The New Yorker states:

[Dr. Keller] argued that it was indeed torture. Some victims were still traumatized years later, he said. One patient couldn't take showers, and panicked when it rained. "The fear of being killed is a terrifying experience," he said.[4][5]
No to go too far afield b/c this thread is about outsourced violations of the Geneva Conventions not our homegrown insults on humanity.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: wirelessenabled
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Bush and his admin need to be brought to trial for war crimes.
Voting for anybody but Republicans is just as moronic as voting for people because they are Republicans. We need to be voting for people who vow to bring Bush and his cohorts to trial and implement governmental reform to better avoid such debasement of our nation in the future.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,547
0
76
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Voting for anybody but Republicans is just as moronic as voting for people because they are Republicans. We need to be voting for people who vow to bring Bush and his cohorts to trial and implement governmental reform to better avoid such debasement of our nation in the future.
you're never going to get your fantasy trials, regardless of who gets elected.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Maybe not for the current band of miscreants, but eventually people are bound to stop voting for Republicans or otherwise and instead learn to vote for justice.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,510
3,264
126
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Voting for anybody but Republicans is just as moronic as voting for people because they are Republicans. We need to be voting for people who vow to bring Bush and his cohorts to trial and implement governmental reform to better avoid such debasement of our nation in the future.
you're never going to get your fantasy trials, regardless of who gets elected.
Actually, you know nothing about what will happen.
 

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