Question about workplace ethics

[SeductivePig]

Background: I work for an engineering consulting firm, 1 year into my role as an analyst.

There's 3 other people in my division, all of them are in their 30's.

Our VP always says that it's ok for them not to work that much since they have family/kids, but for me it's not excusable to have normal hours because I'm single.


Is this fair, or is it discrimination?

One guy's 30, one is 33, and one is 38. The 30 year old is the manager, already put in his hours when he was younger. Well established. The 38 year old is a senior engineer, puts in his time. The 33 year old is just an analyst and uses the caveat that his wife works and they need time for the kids.

I'm the only single guy in the firm (youngest too) and all the time I get told that because of that, I'm required to work more. If I was in a role that involved human interaction I would be fine with this, and in a role where the pay raises were nice.

However, my hours involve staring at a computer screen doing engineering calculations all day with no human contact. I'm expected to do that, and complete my work even when the VP wastes my time with useless meetings, I'm expected to put in more time to learn on my own, and I'm expected to train this guy in a different career path how to do my job. My raise for the last year was 1.8%, despite being bumped up from engineer 1 to engineer 2 (a $3.33/hr difference), yet they are charging clients with me listed as an engineer 2.

This is on top of the VP budgeting our projects really low, giving unreasonable deadlines, and every single guy in my division (the backbone of the company) agrees that this is BULLSHIT (how the projects are managed, not my situation).

Is it fair?

 

[Vic Vega]

Is this fair, or is it discrimination?

Yes it's fair, no it's not discrimination. Whatever arrangement the employer has with any one of your coworkers does not involve you. Best to learn this early in life. You'll probably hate to find out they each make $30K/year more than you too.

You only need to worry about your job and doing it the best you can.

 

[sixone]

No, not fair. But is it worth pitching a fit over? Not unless you have a lateral move already lined up.

 

[SeductivePig]

Yes it's fair, no it's not discrimination. Whatever arrangement the employer has with any one of your coworkers does not involve you. Best to learn this early in life. You'll probably hate to find out they each make $30K/year more than you too.

You only need to worry about your job and doing it the best you can.

It's not an explicit relationship - he expects them to work the same hours as me but when they don't, I'm the only one that gets put on the spot. He excuses them and gets disappointed with ME. As if just because I'm single, work should be my life. wtf?

I don't care that they make more than me because they deserve it, they are well past me in career development and I have no business comparing my salary to their's.

 

[vi edit]

Workplaces are rarely fair.

You basically have three options.
1) Suck it up and deal with it and be miserable.
2) Work your 40 and roll the dice on how they respond
3) Find a new job

If you bring this up you are just going to come off as whiney and they'll find a reason to replace you with a new eager to please young kid fresh off the assembly line who's happy to have a job.

Employers are going to take and take and take until you stop giving. Stop giving and they'll stop asking. Or they'll just replace you. Really just depends on how disposable your role and skillsets really are. None of us can tell you the right answer.

 

[Train]

earn your stripes in your 20's, get some slack cut for you when you have a wife and kids in your 30's by other guys who know how hard it is.

You could be so lucky.

 

[jagec]

No, it's not "fair". Life is not "fair", and yes, you are currently experiencing one of the many ways that being single sucks.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Do yourself a favor and have a kid or two. And then come back and bitch about how life isn't fair while you're trying to raise two kids.

 

[Vic Vega]

It's not an explicit relationship - he expects them to work the same hours as me but when they don't, I'm the only one that gets put on the spot. He excuses them and gets disappointed with ME. As if just because I'm single, work should be my life. wtf?

I don't care that they make more than me because they deserve it, they are well past me in career development and I have no business comparing my salary to their's.

Yeah, as much as you don't like it, you need to understand there are understandings between him and these other employees on an individual basis which have nothing at all to do with you. What you need to do is work to the standard he has set for you and you will have nothing to worry about.

From your point of view, I understand it sucks.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Fair? Probably not.

Unethical? Definitely not.

 

[SeductivePig]

Workplaces are rarely fair.

You basically have three options.
1) Suck it up and deal with it and be miserable.
2) Work your 40 and roll the dice on how they respond
3) Find a new job

If you bring this up you are just going to come off as whiney and they'll find a reason to replace you with a new eager to please young kid fresh off the assembly line who's happy to have a job.

Employers are going to take and take and take until you stop giving. Stop giving and they'll stop asking. Or they'll just replace you. Really just depends on how disposable your role and skillsets really are. None of us can tell you the right answer.

I would never bring this up but I don't know how else to handle it. I already work from 8-7PM and even put in time on the weekends here and there.

My skills are replaceable but for the quality of work I put out relative to the cost of my services, it would be pointless for them to replace me. They don't' want to train another guy out of college either so anyone that replaces me would be more expensive and wouldn't justify the cost.

They want me to be the "future of the company" and trained me well but sometimes it's just too much to handle..

Yeah, as much as you don't like it, you need to understand there are understandings between him and these other employees on an individual basis which have nothing at all to do with you. What you need to do is work to the standard he has set for you and you will have nothing to worry about.

From your point of view, I understand it sucks.

The reality is that my VP is CRAZY. I'm not exaggerating, he has ridiculous unachievable expectations of people and even the people in my division try to stay as far away from him as possible, and they are the creme of the crop in our industry.

He expects me to

1) Work longer hours. I already work from 8-6 or 8-7 typically.
2) Learn outside of my billable hours on the weekdays (past 6 or 7 after I've spent an entire day working)
3) Train this new guy to do my work when he's not even supposed to be doing it (there's no way some kid can learn what I do within 2 weeks, it takes years to get proficient)
4) He comes into our office and makes us all sit with him and chit chat and go over bullshit that isn't even useful to us and never stops talking, which wastes our time and makes us lag behind on projects.
5) He makes our deadlines unreasonable, needlessly soon when the client doesn't even ask for it.

 

[Lifted]

Do yourself a favor and have a kid or two. And then come back and bitch about how life isn't fair while you're trying to raise two kids.

While I'm sure that's what the manager is thinking when he makes these stupid remarks and policies, but he's a pretty shit manager be telling OP as much. It's one thing to say it (unofficially) to the other employees in order to let them know their manager knows life ain't easy, it's absolutely retarded to tell the employee he's doing it to, especially when that employee is a well educated professional.

OP, the VP is an ass.

As to your question, no, it's not fair. Options are deal with it, discuss it with your manager (the VP?), or leave. If you discuss your concerns with them, professionally, they will either respect you more for coming forward and showing your not some ditch digger who is there to be used and abused, or you'll find out you should start looking elsewhere.

 

[Vic Vega]

I would never bring this up but I don't know how else to handle it. I already work from 8-7PM and even put in time on the weekends here and there.

My skills are replaceable but for the quality of work I put out relative to the cost of my services, it would be pointless for them to replace me. They don't' want to train another guy out of college either so anyone that replaces me would be more expensive and wouldn't justify the cost.

They want me to be the "future of the company" and trained me well but sometimes it's just too much to handle..



The reality is that my VP is CRAZY. I'm not exaggerating, he has ridiculous unachievable expectations of people and even the people in my division try to stay as far away from him as possible, and they are the creme of the crop in our industry.

He expects me to

1) Work longer hours. I already work from 8-6 or 8-7 typically.
2) Learn outside of my billable hours on the weekdays (past 6 or 7 after I've spent an entire day working)
3) Train this new guy to do my work when he's not even supposed to be doing it (there's no way some kid can learn what I do within 2 weeks, it takes years to get proficient)
4) He comes into our office and makes us all sit with him and chit chat and go over bullshit that isn't even useful to us and never stops talking, which wastes our time and makes us lag behind on projects.
5) He makes our deadlines unreasonable, needlessly soon when the client doesn't even ask for it.

Well, I would say if you are not willing to or not able to work to the standard he has set it's probably best you move on. I'm not saying you aren't 100% entitled to think he's nuts or what he is asking of you is nuts, if you say it is I have no reason to not believe you. I guess the question you have to ask yourself now is, "What do I want to do?" and only you can answer that.

 

[Baked]

Just don't shoot up the work place like all the crazies out there. If you got the talent, find another job.

 

[Corporate Thug]

Background: I work for an engineering consulting firm, 1 year into my role as an analyst.

There's 3 other people in my division, all of them are in their 30's.

Our VP always says that it's ok for them not to work that much since they have family/kids, but for me it's not excusable to have normal hours because I'm single.


Is this fair, or is it discrimination?

One guy's 30, one is 33, and one is 38. The 30 year old is the manager, already put in his hours when he was younger. Well established. The 38 year old is a senior engineer, puts in his time. The 33 year old is just an analyst and uses the caveat that his wife works and they need time for the kids.

I'm the only single guy in the firm (youngest too) and all the time I get told that because of that, I'm required to work more. If I was in a role that involved human interaction I would be fine with this, and in a role where the pay raises were nice.

However, my hours involve staring at a computer screen doing engineering calculations all day with no human contact. I'm expected to do that, and complete my work even when the VP wastes my time with useless meetings, I'm expected to put in more time to learn on my own, and I'm expected to train this guy in a different career path how to do my job. My raise for the last year was 1.8%, despite being bumped up from engineer 1 to engineer 2 (a $3.33/hr difference), yet they are charging clients with me listed as an engineer 2.

This is on top of the VP budgeting our projects really low, giving unreasonable deadlines, and every single guy in my division (the backbone of the company) agrees that this is BULLSHIT (how the projects are managed, not my situation).

Is it fair?

You make $185 and hour? Yeah, that's fair.

 

[SeductivePig]

Well, I would say if you are not willing to or not able to work to the standard he has set it's probably best you move on. I'm not saying you aren't 100% entitled to think he's nuts or what he is asking of you is nuts, if you say it is I have no reason to not believe you. I guess the question you have to ask yourself now is, "What do I want to do?" and only you can answer that.

Honestly right now I don't have a lot of options. My immediate boss is leaving for 3-6 months to work for one of our clients and I am expected to hold the fort until he gets back.

They are expecting a ridiculous output from me just because I graduated from a really good school (which didn't teach me a single thing about my job), and because I'm young and single.

While I'm sure that's what the manager is thinking when he makes these stupid remarks and policies, but he's a pretty shit manager be telling OP as much. It's one thing to say it (unofficially) to the other employees in order to let them know their manager knows life ain't easy, it's absolutely retarded to tell the employee he's doing it to, especially when that employee is a well educated professional.

OP, the VP is an ass.

As to your question, no, it's not fair. Options are deal with it, discuss it with your manager (the VP?), or leave. If you discuss your concerns with them, professionally, they will either respect you more for coming forward and showing your not some ditch digger who is there to be used and abused, or you'll find out you should start looking elsewhere.

The problem is that absolutely nobody has the balls to talk to the VP about these things. Even if we're on a strict deadline and the VP is tying everyone up, nobody will say a word.

Honestly I will say that having all these responsibilities means I am gaining a TON of valuable experience in the process which will help me move to a better role in the future, but at the same time, I'm not able to have a proper social life since I hit the gym after work and start working a second job after lifting.

There are companies out there that only expect 40 hrs/week from fresh graduates and sometimes I feel like I should switch, but I would lose a lot of opportunity..

 

[SeductivePig]

You make $185 and hour? Yeah, that's fair.

In the consulting world we make 33% of what we typically bill the client. Last year I was started out at $90/hr (61k/year) and this year I was bumped up to $100/hr (yet I am still making 62.2k/year).

This is despite the company not meeting the revenue target and everybody else getting a paycut.

I guess my best option is to wait until next year and see what kind of raise I get - there is no doubt that after this year I'd get bumped up to engineer 3 ($110/hr) so if I don't get at least 68-70k next year then I think I'm out. I can't deal with 2-3% increases every year, maybe I should switch industries if that's really what's going to happen.

 

[Kelvrick]

You make $185 and hour? Yeah, that's fair.

Maybe he expected a 3.33/hour bump and got a 1.8% bump instead.

You just have to deal with it. I don't mean do whatever they want, but choose how you're going to deal with it. Take the abuse and experience now for a better job at another company later? Maybe find another job, tell them all your complaints and see if you get what you want. Be ready to get fired now, or leave once your gets back.

I've seen plenty of companies make decisions that don't make financial sense, but they don't want employees thinking they can get whatever they want. Instead of paying you your 7k a year, they'll fire you and pay 50k for someone else to do your work for the few months because they don't like getting fucked with.

EDIT: Everyone else got a paycut? Don't complain about your 1.8% raise.

 

[vi edit]

You don't make big jumps sticking around. The only way to really boost your earnings is hopping employers and getting the bumps in income that typically come with that.

That can be a dangerous game though because you get greedy and start looking like a job jumper.

 

[SeductivePig]

Maybe he expected a 3.33/hour bump and got a 1.8% bump instead.

You just have to deal with it. I don't mean do whatever they want, but choose how you're going to deal with it. Take the abuse and experience now for a better job at another company later? Maybe find another job, tell them all your complaints and see if you get what you want. Be ready to get fired now, or leave once your gets back.

I've seen plenty of companies make decisions that don't make financial sense, but they don't want employees thinking they can get whatever they want. Instead of paying you your 7k a year, they'll fire you and pay 50k for someone else to do your work for the few months because they don't like getting fucked with.

EDIT: Everyone else got a paycut? Don't complain about your 1.8% raise.

My immediate boss (5 years ahead of me) went from my salary ($90/hr) to $140/hr presently. It's not unusual.

Everyone got paycuts because they've been with the company from the beginning and it's not as big of a deal for them since they're at a much higher level. Pay cutting a guy fresh out of school would just look bad.

In my particular industry it's not smart to get rid of employees like us because we complete the work that brings in most of the revenue for our division. Furthermore we have major clients that have very particular standards and if we were to get fired in the midst, it would cause chaos everywhere because new people cannot pick up on those standards that quickly, and good people are extremely hard to find in our industry (they interviewed a lot of people before going on a hiring freeze and hiring nobody).

For example, I've been working with a major oil company for the past 8 months. There is nobody in our division aside from my boss who knows their standards and background aside from the senior engineer and myself.

 

[Fritzo]

Employers with families tend to be more sympathetic towards employees with families. It's like that where I work too. (I have a family and benefit from it )

 

[jagec]

In the consulting world we make 33% of what we typically bill the client. Last year I was started out at $90/hr (61k/year) and this year I was bumped up to $100/hr (yet I am still making 62.2k/year).

This is despite the company not meeting the revenue target and everybody else getting a paycut.

I guess my best option is to wait until next year and see what kind of raise I get - there is no doubt that after this year I'd get bumped up to engineer 3 ($110/hr) so if I don't get at least 68-70k next year then I think I'm out. I can't deal with 2-3% increases every year, maybe I should switch industries if that's really what's going to happen.

So, you've been working there for a year, you've already gotten a raise (even though everyone else got a pay cut, including all of those family men with kids at home), and you're complaining because of 10-hour days?

You've got to put in your time before you get the perks.

 

[SeductivePig]

So, you've been working there for a year, you've already gotten a raise (even though everyone else got a pay cut, including all of those family men with kids at home), and you're complaining because of 10-hour days?

You've got to put in your time before you get the perks.

I got a raise because my supervisor knows I have a shit ton of student loan debt and because I provide the EXACT if not more value to the company as a guy with 5 years more experience than me who is salaried for 33% more.

Not everybody got paycuts, but some people were bought onto the company and were being paid way too much and those people got paycuts so that they were fairly paid.

And FYI, getting an extra $60 a month as a "raise" is hardly justification enough to call it a raise. They might as well have kept me where I was at and I wouldn't even have noticed a difference.

 

[KaOTiK]

Lie.

After a weekend, and back at work when everyone is BS'n and talking about what they did or whatever, say you met some girl and you two really hit it off and you have a date planned in a couple of days. Continue it on and escalate it over time. Just make people you work with believe you have a special someone. Hell, you can even say shes a single mom. Just need people to believe it is a serious relationship and she is "probably" the one.

Or, if you find a new job and you talk to your new coworkers, tell them you have 1-2 kids that you share custody with or the mom is a deadbeat/ran away and you have them on your own. Use some pictures of cousins or other friends kids.

Messed up? Sure a bit, but no more than you having to pick up more slack because you decided to be single. A friend I know does the second option, he actually uses one of our friends kid as pictures for "his" kid. We all get a laugh out of it and he doesn't get treated any differently from the married guys (he use too till he invented the kid idea when our friend was actually having their baby, he was in a situation like you was suppose to work more because he was single).

 

[iGas]

First world problem.

As I see it, you can find another job, or suck it up and do what you are told.

Just to let you know the average salary of a medical doctor in some of the country that I have been to such as Cambodia, Indonesia, and Vietnam is between $200-500 USD a month pending the type of medicine that they are practicing.

Life isn't fair.