Question about water-pumps and exotic cooling . . .

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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I recall seeing a web-page summary some years back of a fellow in Arizona who had run long lengths of copper-tubing 8" under his lawn. Figure the total length of tubing was 40'. This was then routed into the house or basement to his computer rig.

It hinged on the idea that watering his lawn led to evaporation, and evaporation cooled the water in the tubing.

It seemed he used a powerful water-pump for this . . . "configuration."

Never having thought about this sort of thing before in depth, does anyone know of guidelines for choosing a water-pump based on the length of hoses or distance through which the water must travel? Drawbacks? Risks?
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
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Chances are any large "passive" configuration would have to rely on some sort of industrial pump, as you're having to move quite a bit of water. Most of the consumer water cooling pumps aren't really designed for that sort of thing; but, I'm sure there are others that are.

As much as it sadden's me to say this, cheez might have the most experience I know of of using a consumer pump for a longer than normal run of hose (I believe his set up has something like 70').

Your obvious risks are longer tubing means more chances of tubing failure, or puncture and the pump having to move more water. Drawbacks include very little portability, quite a lot of water to maintain, complicated set up, and no calculations that I know of concerning the amount of passive cooling ability (you'd just be guessing, as far as I can tell).

I'd imagine it takes quite a lot (even if you use some fins, and increased surface area), to passively cool a modern system. Maybe if you had an entire desk made of copper tubing and heat dispersion, you could do it, but I have no real idea.
 

BrightCandle

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Mar 15, 2007
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The backyard buried piping relies on the fact that underground the temperature is constantly throughout the year, heated mostly by the earth core itself and not by the sun. You need to bury the pipes reasonable deep and typically people use this effect for aiding heating and cooling their houses. But I did see a guy on XS that used some clever valves and such to reduce the pressure and pipe it through his PC to cool it as well. Its doable but not a small project. Have a search on xtremesystems, I am certain I saw it there.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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The backyard buried piping relies on the fact that underground the temperature is constantly throughout the year, heated mostly by the earth core itself and not by the sun. You need to bury the pipes reasonable deep and typically people use this effect for aiding heating and cooling their houses. But I did see a guy on XS that used some clever valves and such to reduce the pressure and pipe it through his PC to cool it as well. Its doable but not a small project. Have a search on xtremesystems, I am certain I saw it there.

I wasn't thinking of replicating the project by "the guy in Arizona." I just remembered that he chose a particular sort of pump for the job, so I assume there is some relationship between a choice of pumps and the distance the water has to travel. Let's dispense with the idea that I would bury a whole 30-gallon tank in my backyard -- sealed and filled with distilled water with intake and output hoses -- that would mean my water must travel at least ten feet upward before entering the house.

I'm more interested in just THINKING about a "bong" project that would put the bong "outdoors" in a sheltered area of the patio. I'd need to run hoses at the same elevation a minimum of 15' each way.

So how is 30' in a round-trip circuit for water going to affect pump effectiveness or pump choices?
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
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I don't know if 30' round trip is going to be too big of a deal for a D5, but it also depends on other factors. Length shouldn't just be consider; how restrictive everything else is, turns, etc.

If you want to play it safe an Iwaki RD-30 should have zero problems. You could always go with dual D5s though.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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I don't know if 30' round trip is going to be too big of a deal for a D5, but it also depends on other factors. Length shouldn't just be consider; how restrictive everything else is, turns, etc.

If you want to play it safe an Iwaki RD-30 should have zero problems. You could always go with dual D5s though.

So it's not an uncommon practice to hook up two pumps in series?

I just got back from the family shopping trip, to which I added a visit to Home Depot. While you can get 6"-dia PVC pipe, finding 8"-dia will be a real difficulty if it even exists. You would wonder what other options exists to build the bong. But again, I'm just "thinking" about it, and doing my . . . investigations . . .
 
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aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
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Sep 28, 2005
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What you want is a geothermal cooler.

Basically u dig a deep ditch below the frost line in your yard, and then coil copper tubing around it, then bury it.

The Earth keeps the coolant at a set temp.

To get this kind of setup working, its best to do a 2 part loop.
Keep the geothermal cooling part as one loop, and have it meet at a central reservior.
Then you tap the res to your PC directly.

The geothermal loop will just cycle from res -> earth -> res.
The cooling loop goes Res -> PC -> Res.

You can use almost any pump for the geothermal loop.
Id acctually recommend u go industrial for that section with a RD-30, or even a water pressure booster pump you use in houses.

You dont want chain everything in 1 loop, because it gets really messy.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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What you want is a geothermal cooler.

Basically u dig a deep ditch below the frost line in your yard, and then coil copper tubing around it, then bury it.

The Earth keeps the coolant at a set temp.

To get this kind of setup working, its best to do a 2 part loop.
Keep the geothermal cooling part as one loop, and have it meet at a central reservior.
Then you tap the res to your PC directly.

The geothermal loop will just cycle from res -> earth -> res.
The cooling loop goes Res -> PC -> Res.

You can use almost any pump for the geothermal loop.
Id acctually recommend u go industrial for that section with a RD-30, or even a water pressure booster pump you use in houses.

You dont want chain everything in 1 loop, because it gets really messy.

FrozenCPU should carry . . . shovels! As I said -- I'm "thinking" about all these . . . Rube-Goldbergs I'd read about early in my membership here. The links were all "personal project" sites or other enthusiast forums. The "deep earth" solutions rely on 55F I suppose . . .

I'm still looking at the bong idea. It doesn't HAVE to go "outdoors," but it COULD go outdoors . . . I'm trying to picture how to keep it effectively filtered, without obstructing its operation. I recently found a (US) outfit that sells 8"-dia PVC. But I haven't located the fittings yet. I could see the project costing me several hundred bucks, just including the cost of the PVC.

Fun and games . . . fun and games . . . Well-- the morning's taco-meat is done -- time for breakfast. Yesterday it was chili-dogs . . . Yum!:biggrin:
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
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I think the problem is 8" is most likely industrial only stuff, thus they charge whatever they want for it.

6" diameter is the largest I can find at Home Depot or Lowes, so 8" and above has to be industrial. Realistically, will 6" have such a large impact over the 8"?
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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I think the problem is 8" is most likely industrial only stuff, thus they charge whatever they want for it.

6" diameter is the largest I can find at Home Depot or Lowes, so 8" and above has to be industrial. Realistically, will 6" have such a large impact over the 8"?

Among the "Bong" community there is a rule-of-thumb for the height of the bong based on something like 75W increments of thermal power. I think that measuring-stick (I forget the particulars at the moment) was based on 6" PVC, and the poster-guru noted that a wider bong can mean a shorter bong, or conversely, wider and higher is even better.

The other thing I wanted to do was deploy a 200mm fan on it, probably with a little $5 or $10 transformer I can buy at the local electrical jobbers-supply so I can plug it into an AC socket . . . somewhere . .

This is still all speculation -- investigation. But if I took the "plunge" into water, why not do something like this?

The Bong community argues that there are myths that aren't true, particularly the increase in household humidity. But where I live, it would be good for the sinuses anyway . . .
 

rgallant

Golden Member
Apr 14, 2007
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if you can just put 3 rads downstairs if you have say a furnace room vented.and run the tubes and power.
add a pump ,power from system or a small psu down there tripped by system to start up
I run 3 12v power circuits down ,pump + one fan for rpm alarm ,2nd for 4 fans plus rpm ,3rd 4 fans with rpm so 3 down , 3up to fan controller rpm alarm if I do not plug something in.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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if you can just put 3 rads downstairs if you have say a furnace room vented.and run the tubes and power.
add a pump ,power from system or a small psu down there tripped by system to start up
I run 3 12v power circuits down ,pump + one fan for rpm alarm ,2nd for 4 fans plus rpm ,3rd 4 fans with rpm so 3 down , 3up to fan controller rpm alarm if I do not plug something in.

No furnace room in So-Cal. But plenty of dry air . .

The biggest risk I think with a bong cooler: the reservoir goes dry -- maybe when you're not at home. But it would seem that just idling the computer in an alternate overclock profile saved in BIOS, you could actually shut off the fan on the bong; rate of evaporation would drop; you still have a big reservoir.

The other problem would be filtration and any detriment to the pump(s).

I just picked up my desk ruler. 6" PVC is not so bad. Probably easy to find fittings. I could still use a 200mm fan with a 200-to-140mm adapter from FrozenCPU, or whoever else carries it. That would make it look like a bong. . . heh-heh.

My best strategy so far: simplify. That's probably why even a bong project makes me a little hesitant. But except for two water connections inside the computer to start, it may be simpler. It would just be nice to turn a couple spigots, disconnect the tubing to the bong, and have a passable water-cooling system. So I'm thinking that it wouldn't hurt to add one 200mm-square radiator covered by one high-throughput fan.

In principle, you'd only have to change the BIOS overclock profile for each cooling configuration.

Since this is just the exploratory planning phase -- I'll be up front and say that all comment is encouraged. Maybe I'll even get "expert" comment. Where else would you go to find it?
 
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WoodButcher

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Mar 10, 2001
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I've done it Duck. Few years back w/4", I went 4' tall filled with ping pong balls.
Yes, the humidity went up, in a dry climate it would be fine.
No, I don't think you would need any other cooling. I'm not sure exactly what I had on it, I think it was the E6600 or the Q6600 with the high end NVidia card and motherboard cooling altogether. All overclocked and over juiced. The temps were better than 2 triple rads. I had two of the thick ones, $130 a piece, can't remember the name now...:oops:
I drilled and tapped the bottom for a 1/4" npt and used a showerhead on top. I had about a 6" reservoir on the bottom that could have been bigger. Use a filter on the fan, probably help help the water clean.
Unless you keep adding water it isn't for 24/7 use, mine would run 6hrs then overheat and shutdown. Didn't hurt the pump as the system wasn't dry per-se, pump was at the bottom so it was wet but air in the line so the cpu heated and shutdown. 6 hours was about all I could run w/o adding water.
And that damn waternoise,,,
Noise was my complaint. The computer was in my bedroom.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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I've done it Duck. Few years back w/4", I went 4' tall filled with ping pong balls.
Yes, the humidity went up, in a dry climate it would be fine.
No, I don't think you would need any other cooling. I'm not sure exactly what I had on it, I think it was the E6600 or the Q6600 with the high end NVidia card and motherboard cooling altogether. All overclocked and over juiced. The temps were better than 2 triple rads. I had two of the thick ones, $130 a piece, can't remember the name now...:oops:
I drilled and tapped the bottom for a 1/4" npt and used a showerhead on top. I had about a 6" reservoir on the bottom that could have been bigger. Use a filter on the fan, probably help help the water clean.
Unless you keep adding water it isn't for 24/7 use, mine would run 6hrs then overheat and shutdown. Didn't hurt the pump as the system wasn't dry per-se, pump was at the bottom so it was wet but air in the line so the cpu heated and shutdown. 6 hours was about all I could run w/o adding water.
And that damn waternoise,,,
Noise was my complaint. The computer was in my bedroom.

I could seem myself buying many gallon jugs of distilled water. How long would a reservoir of 6"-dia by 1' last? That would be the bottom foot of the bong, with the Y-joint just above that.

You can see . . . if I go forward with this -- and it's going to be a while -- I'll want to pick your brain.

The problem with needing to replenish the radiator and monitor it always seemed like a drawback. If feasible, it would either be useful to have some sort of stop-cock installed on the computer-case intake and outflow lines with a modest single radiator thrown into the mix, or simply shut off the bong fan to attenuate evaporation. But again, the double-loop idea adds complexity.

I'm guessing the bigger the reservoir, the longer it takes to attain the maximum chilling effect. But the bigger the reservoir, the longer you can run the system without refills.
 

WoodButcher

Platinum Member
Mar 10, 2001
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I could seem myself buying many gallon jugs of distilled water. How long would a reservoir of 6"-dia by 1' last?

My res was about 6" deep in 4" pipe, three feet of pp balls for surface area,,, Complicated math for an old feeb like me!:)

You can see . . . if I go forward with this -- and it's going to be a while -- I'll want to pick your brain.

No worries duck, we've been round the pond many times before. Always glad to help and confuse if I can.

I'm guessing the bigger the reservoir, the longer it takes to attain the maximum chilling effect. But the bigger the reservoir, the longer you can run the system without refills.
Start with cool water. Put a jug in the fridge and mix that with room temp water but be careful not to go too cold. The bong IIRC did go a couple degrees below ambient in my situation with normal operation. I don't remember if they all did this or it was because of the proximity to the basement walls in my case. Condensation can be an issue if you run ice in the bong because you are raising the humidity levels in the room by running the bong in the first place.
Sorry I don't have detailed info any more, if you feel like reading you can search my posts, back between '06 and '08 I think. :eek:
When did the E6600 and Q6600 come out? I pre ordered both and that was around the time.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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Start with cool water. Put a jug in the fridge and mix that with room temp water but be careful not to go too cold. The bong IIRC did go a couple degrees below ambient in my situation with normal operation. I don't remember if they all did this or it was because of the proximity to the basement walls in my case. Condensation can be an issue if you run ice in the bong because you are raising the humidity levels in the room by running the bong in the first place.
Sorry I don't have detailed info any more, if you feel like reading you can search my posts, back between '06 and '08 I think. :eek:
When did the E6600 and Q6600 come out? I pre ordered both and that was around the time.

I saw some years ago where one guy -- "insulating" against condensation -- had a similar rig where he just froze refilled drinking-water bottles and kept them in the freezer. Then he'd dump them in a vinyl tub. But the maintenance is too damn high!

So -- yeah -- you really wouldn't want the CPU temperature to fall more than a few degrees below ambient.

Those processors were released beginning 2006 I think. The Kentsfield C2Q was released around January of '07. I'll look for your old threads.
 

WoodButcher

Platinum Member
Mar 10, 2001
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With a bong you won't get more than a degree or two sub- ambient if any at all. Not a concern unless you run chilled water.
I didn't make any threads on the topic but I know the subject came up from time to time. Check XS also, IIRC there were a few over there that played with them too.
At one time I built a TEC cooled loop, started it in '08 never finished till a year and a half later...
funny how life gets in the way.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?197891-Another-TEC-chiller(s)&highlight=
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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With a bong you won't get more than a degree or two sub- ambient if any at all. Not a concern unless you run chilled water.
I didn't make any threads on the topic but I know the subject came up from time to time. Check XS also, IIRC there were a few over there that played with them too.
At one time I built a TEC cooled loop, started it in '08 never finished till a year and a half later...
funny how life gets in the way.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?197891-Another-TEC-chiller(s)&highlight=

The first time I encountered the concept on the web, it was from some engineering student's "special project" web-site. I think he was chilling an AMD core. I also think it had a wider surface area on the IHS. His data showed something like either 5F or 5C below room ambient.

But I'd be happy to run the system at LinX load for an hour and see the temperature maximum on the cores at just 10 or 20C above room ambient.

AigoMorla notes that water-cooled systems are only voltage-limited in their overclocks, while air-cooled are temperature-limited. But if my understanding is correct, there are incremental improvements in voltage just for reductions in temperature. I'm the one who limits my voltage -- to what we assume adheres to bygone Intel specs and die-shrinks. But suppose at the same voltage, I get an extra 100 or 200 Mhz for my trouble? Only time will tell.

Do you remember how the lower temperature helped you with your overclocking?

Also -- Here's something I just remembered. For the last six-some-odd years, I've used a top-loading freezer for a wine-chiller, using this item:

http://www.beveragefactory.com/draf...&cagpspn=pla&gclid=CIjRgenTs7wCFVGVfgodUwYAwA

My brother uses one for his home-brewing efforts. With my freezer, wanting to keep the Vino Mendocino at between 55 and 57F, I just set the upper and lower bounds on the device. The thermal probe goes into the bottom of the freezer. Very energy efficient, and I can keep the wine in the garage (which gets pretty warm here in the summer).

The original freezer went on the fritz about two years ago -- it was already 20 years old. At first, I thought the problem was the Johnson-Controls device, and like the half-wit I seem to be too many times, I ordered another one. Once I had replaced the freezer, I had a spare controller.

I'm just wondering if I could use this device to control a bong cooler. You could have it turn the fan on and off depending on the reservoir temperature. Or so I think . . .
 
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WoodButcher

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Mar 10, 2001
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Yeah, that could work to run the fan. Use a wall wart to power the fan, pick your flavor. I'll bet you have as many different voltages in your closet as I do.

My OC wasn't much affected by cooling ever other than a P4 I had running at 4.0 for 3-4 years till it started to degrade. It was running up at 1.5V.
What Aigo said s basically true but within limits, the stock cooler would overheat with minimal voltage increases, add a True and your temps would stay under the shut down temps but most PC reached their voltage / stability limits and bluescreen before getting too hot. For me water was
Most of my motherboards were MATX, I liked the smaller boards but they always had onboard video whether you wanted it or not. That seemed to play a big factor in how fast I could push them. Last high end board I bought was the Asus commando and the one I got was a POS, couldn't get the E6600 past 3.6 and I had at the time a MATX P5- something or another that was the previous version of the board I still run today that took that dual core to 4.0. Killed that board with voltage. In fact blew out a couple mofsets but the temps were just fine.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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Yeah, that could work to run the fan. Use a wall wart to power the fan, pick your flavor. I'll bet you have as many different voltages in your closet as I do.

My OC wasn't much affected by cooling ever other than a P4 I had running at 4.0 for 3-4 years till it started to degrade. It was running up at 1.5V.
What Aigo said s basically true but within limits, the stock cooler would overheat with minimal voltage increases, add a True and your temps would stay under the shut down temps but most PC reached their voltage / stability limits and bluescreen before getting too hot. For me water was
Most of my motherboards were MATX, I liked the smaller boards but they always had onboard video whether you wanted it or not. That seemed to play a big factor in how fast I could push them. Last high end board I bought was the Asus commando and the one I got was a POS, couldn't get the E6600 past 3.6 and I had at the time a MATX P5- something or another that was the previous version of the board I still run today that took that dual core to 4.0. Killed that board with voltage. In fact blew out a couple mofsets but the temps were just fine.

I was more cautious about the voltage, so I never killed any cores. I think I stopped at 3.2Ghz on that E6600 Conroe. I soon replaced it with a Kentsfield, and the Conroe now runs my WHS-2011 server.

The bong possibilities for me arise where I sense we're at a crossroads with this overclocking business. First -- the TIM-versus-solder and thermals for the IB and Haswells. Then, the "-E" processors with six cores and 130W TDP at stock settings. So I'm entertaining the idea of it.

I have a list of parts for just building an IB-E with the ASUS X79 Deluxe motherboard this year. It's an old and mature chipset, but that board was only released last summer -- as I understand it. I should really invest in mobile electronics, but I never feel like I need those items.

I think if they reduce the lithography some more -- from the 22nm IB and Haswells -- the over-clocking obsessives will be limited for reasons more than just voltage and heat. Quantum physics comes into play. If they release processors with 18nm lithography, where does it go after that? They reduce the power requirement, but the cooling problem becomes more formidable if you want the processor to exceed its specification.

After exploiting older, more over-clockable processors, we may need to find another hobby . . . or spend more time playing Crysis or COD instead of tinkering with hardware.
 

WoodButcher

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Mar 10, 2001
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Hobbies like pc got to be more expense than I could justify in my budget. The latest, greatest is just to much for too little return. Last year I sold a handful of goodies that were still useful, gave my Q6600 in an MITX system to a friend in need, a Xmas gift.
My main pc is a Q8400 clocked up to 3.2, in an old Toshiba case, custom loop of course.

Past year or two I've been playing with my trucks...:$

http://www.astrosafari.com/viewtopic.php?f=127&t=17922

Springtime should see a 350 in that one.:p
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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Hobbies like pc got to be more expense than I could justify in my budget. The latest, greatest is just to much for too little return. Last year I sold a handful of goodies that were still useful, gave my Q6600 in an MITX system to a friend in need, a Xmas gift.
My main pc is a Q8400 clocked up to 3.2, in an old Toshiba case, custom loop of course.

Past year or two I've been playing with my trucks...:$

http://www.astrosafari.com/viewtopic.php?f=127&t=17922

Springtime should see a 350 in that one.:p

Well, you give me some pause there for my own budgets and plans. We have a small "fleet" -- Nissan truck, Isuzu "Pooper" V6, and a tip-top still runnin' '83 Corolla. The Corolla is in the shop right now -- needed carb rebuild, AC compressor, and some other things.

But that's why I'm going to take my time on the computer project. First, I'll hold off ordering parts. Then, I'll use my Egg "Preferred" card with deferred payment and no interest. It's like "borrowing" computer parts for a year. :whiste:
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
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bonzai i would build the traditional loop using traditional radiators first b4 you venture into exotic forms of cooling.

For example... my next project will be setting up a 20gal reservior with a Automotive Koyo Copper Racing radiator, feeding 3 rack servers inside a 42U server rack for my home servers.

However i dont think i would even know how to build a LC system that exotic unless i could build the traditional system with my eyes closed.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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bonzai i would build the traditional loop using traditional radiators first b4 you venture into exotic forms of cooling.

For example... my next project will be setting up a 20gal reservior with a Automotive Koyo Copper Racing radiator, feeding 3 rack servers inside a 42U server rack for my home servers.

However i dont think i would even know how to build a LC system that exotic unless i could build the traditional system with my eyes closed.

I wholeheartedly agree there. The motto in military basic training is "do it right the first time," but when it comes to something with no experience or "training," it seldom if ever works that way.

But Aigo -- suppose you wanted intake and outflow lines going to a bong cooler so that you could switch over to a simple internal loop with a radiator and do it easily? Are the stopcocks and other fittings available to do that? Is it possible? Surely you must have some ideas?