Question about Vista HD encryption requirement

[glugglug]

Is HDMI going to be required only for viewing HD on DIGITAL displays, or are standard VGA connector users out of luck as well as the DVI folks?

I am going to be royally pissed if LCDs essentially become a requirement for this.
$2000 LCDs do not match my $169 CRT in display capability.

 

[xtknight]

HDMI is a standard for transmitting data, irrelevant to encryption itself. It is basically DVI+audio.

HDCP (high-bandwidth digital content protection) will be needed on the monitor (or a device prior to the monitor, outputting a DVI/VGA signal) to view HD-DVD and Bluray material (and other HDCP-requiring media) in full resolution. This applies when using any operating system. At the moment, no CRT monitors have HDCP supported via DVI or HDMI, though a few CRT TVs do.

$2000 LCDs do not match my $169 CRT in display capability.

The "$2000 LCD" would exceed it in several categories but fall short in response time and black level.

 

[glugglug]

Originally posted by: xtknight
HDMI is a standard for transmitting data, irrelevant to encryption itself. It is basically DVI+audio.

HDCP (high-bandwidth digital content protection) will be needed on the monitor (or a device prior to the monitor, outputting a DVI/VGA signal) to view HD-DVD and Bluray material (and other HDCP-requiring media) in full resolution. This applies when using any operating system. At the moment, no CRT monitors have HDCP supported via DVI or HDMI, though a few CRT TVs do.

$2000 LCDs do not match my $169 CRT in display capability.

The "$2000 LCD" would exceed it in several categories but fall short in response time and black level.

The only categories in which the LCD would exceed it would be weight, desk space, and power consumption.

Possibly size, but certainly not resolution or image quality. In fact, DVI isn't even capable of most resolutions I use. Even dual-link DVI can't reach my cheap monitor's max.

HDCP makes no sense for a CRT when the CRT is not digital.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: glugglug

Originally posted by: xtknight
HDMI is a standard for transmitting data, irrelevant to encryption itself. It is basically DVI+audio.

HDCP (high-bandwidth digital content protection) will be needed on the monitor (or a device prior to the monitor, outputting a DVI/VGA signal) to view HD-DVD and Bluray material (and other HDCP-requiring media) in full resolution. This applies when using any operating system. At the moment, no CRT monitors have HDCP supported via DVI or HDMI, though a few CRT TVs do.

$2000 LCDs do not match my $169 CRT in display capability.

The "$2000 LCD" would exceed it in several categories but fall short in response time and black level.

The only categories in which the LCD would exceed it would be weight, desk space, and power consumption.

If you are unconvinced of LCDs there are always other technologies like SED and OLED on the horizon.

Possibly size, but certainly not resolution or image quality. In fact, DVI isn't even capable of most resolutions I use. Even dual-link DVI can't reach my cheap monitor's max.

So your $169 monitor does over 2560x1600@60 Hz and supports a 330MHz pixel clock input? What model?

HDCP makes no sense for a CRT when the CRT is not digital.

That's like saying it doesn't make any sense to watch streaming media because it's digital and your CRT is analog.

 

[TheRyuu]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: glugglug

Originally posted by: xtknight
HDMI is a standard for transmitting data, irrelevant to encryption itself. It is basically DVI+audio.

HDCP (high-bandwidth digital content protection) will be needed on the monitor (or a device prior to the monitor, outputting a DVI/VGA signal) to view HD-DVD and Bluray material (and other HDCP-requiring media) in full resolution. This applies when using any operating system. At the moment, no CRT monitors have HDCP supported via DVI or HDMI, though a few CRT TVs do.

$2000 LCDs do not match my $169 CRT in display capability.

The "$2000 LCD" would exceed it in several categories but fall short in response time and black level.

The only categories in which the LCD would exceed it would be weight, desk space, and power consumption.

If you are unconvinced of LCDs there are always other technologies like SED and OLED on the horizon.

Possibly size, but certainly not resolution or image quality. In fact, DVI isn't even capable of most resolutions I use. Even dual-link DVI can't reach my cheap monitor's max.

So your $169 monitor does over 2560x1600@60 Hz and supports a 330MHz pixel clock input? What model?

HDCP makes no sense for a CRT when the CRT is not digital.

That's like saying it doesn't make any sense to watch streaming media because it's digital and your CRT is analog.

lol, pwnd?

I can get a very nice LCD for $2000. If you don't want it then just go ahead and paypal me the money.

See???

Only $1300 to get a nice HD LCD monitor. It's not HDCP complient but still, it's damn good.

I dare you (the OP) to find me a CRT that will do 1920x1080, and put that CRT in my living room, and make it peform as well as the Westinghouse. Your not going to find it. LCD's (not spacifically LCD's, there are other technologies xt talked about) are the future. Your not going to be able to find a CRT anymore that can do those insane reolutions (and still look good) and have HDCP.

You may want to check out plasma's since you might not be satisfied with a LCD. But ONCE you actually use and configure your own LCD, then, just then, you might see the light.
(and I dare you to find a cheap plasma that does 1080p)

 

[m21s]

:beer: For the Westy

Would I use a CRT over my 37" LCD. hellz no

 

[glugglug]

Originally posted by: xtknight
So your $169 monitor does over 2560x1600@60 Hz and supports a 330MHz pixel clock input? What model?

Actually it does it at 65Hz, which puts the pixel clock at 380MHz. And yes, it is perfectly clear in that resolution, but 65Hz refresh is hard on the eyes. Usually I use either 1920x1440 or 1856x1392 for better refresh. It's an LG Flatron 915FT+.
Also, my All-in-Wonder 9700 card won't let me output to TV as a 2nd monitor if the main display is cranked that high.

[/quote]That's like saying it doesn't make any sense to watch streaming media because it's digital and your CRT is analog.[/quote]
No, HDCP is a encryption format for digital signaling. Digital encryption doesn't make sense for a non-digital signal - it would have to be decrypted BEFORE converting it back to analog so it could be sent to VGA.

Your not going to be able to find a CRT anymore that can do those insane resolutions (and still look good) and have HDCP.

CRT monitors that can do those resolutions, and look good, are a dime a dozen (not literally). CRT monitors that do HDCP, however, do not exist.

And wizboy11, if all I wanted was a CRT that performed well at 1920x1080, I could use my old 17" that I bought for around $250 in 1996. I'm willing to bet your Westinghouse won't outlast it, either.

Originally posted by: wizboy11
But ONCE you actually use and configure your own LCD, then, just then, you might see the light.

I use a midrange LCD every day at work. I am very frustrated with the lack of desktop real-estate (as in resolution).

The native resolution restrictions of most digital monitors suck ass as well. My old 17" could actually do 3000x2000 (just at a ridiculously low refresh, like 45Hz). It was unreadable at anything near that. (max readable was around 2048x1536) I would say 3000x2000 on the old 17" CRT looked about the same as 1600x1200 does on my work LCD, since the native res is only 1280x1024.

 

[TanisHalfElven]

i thought this thread was about vista's full hdd encryption.

which $169 crt are we talking here ?
i mean what the name and model #.

 

[TanisHalfElven]

http://www.google.com/search?lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=LG%20Flatron%20915FT%2B.

look like 400+ to me

edit.
and considering its only 19" (equal to 17" lcd) i say even a $300 lcd would beat it.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: glugglug
Actually it does it at 65Hz, which puts the pixel clock at 380MHz. And yes, it is perfectly clear in that resolution, but 65Hz refresh is hard on the eyes. Usually I use either 1920x1440 or 1856x1392 for better refresh. It's an LG Flatron 915FT+.
Also, my All-in-Wonder 9700 card won't let me output to TV as a 2nd monitor if the main display is cranked that high.

With a good quality cable, dual-link DVI would be able to do 1920x1440 at 85 Hz easily. Since most LCDs don't run at >60Hz anyway, that should not be a problem, and since CRTs don't implement DVI-D inputs, it's not an issue either. Perhaps a few CRT HDTVs do, but I'm not aware of any that allow PC input at >60Hz. But whatever the case, you will need DVI or HDMI to use HDCP.

That's like saying it doesn't make any sense to watch streaming media because it's digital and your CRT is analog.

No, HDCP is a encryption format for digital signaling. Digital encryption doesn't make sense for a non-digital signal - it would have to be decrypted BEFORE converting it back to analog so it could be sent to VGA.

We're going to be stuck with HDCP whether we like it or not, and there will be no analog output with full resolution. So the only solution to getting it working on a CRT is getting a VGA signal out of it. Since VGA cannot transmit a digital signal, then what's the problem with using a DVI/HDCP decryption device (like the DVIMAGIC) and then running it through a DAC to get VGA? Seems perfectly logical to me, and I don't know why it wouldn't make sense for CRTs. It may make the protection a little less effective but the digital data (H.264) would still be unretrievable. Likewise, the outputted digital matrix of pixels would be very difficult to record without a very high bandwidth recording device, and it would make piracy unfeasible because recompression would do little good after the decoding.

 

[glugglug]

Originally posted by: tanishalfelven
http://www.google.com/search?lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=LG%20Flatron%20915FT%2B.

look like 400+ to me

edit.
and considering its only 19" (equal to 17" lcd) i say even a $300 lcd would beat it.

$169 at J&R 2 years ago.
But lots of 19" CRTs will do this (although most that will are closer to $300), and nearly all 21" CRTs will do it. I am not about to drop a crapload of cash to get a comparable digital display.

Trust me, no $300 LCD is even in the same league. You LCD fans are too used to seeing the piece of crap $25-$50 CRTs that are purchased in bulk for businesses/used for low budget systems.

 

[TanisHalfElven]

Originally posted by: glugglug

Originally posted by: tanishalfelven
http://www.google.com/search?lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=LG%20Flatron%20915FT%2B.

look like 400+ to me

edit.
and considering its only 19" (equal to 17" lcd) i say even a $300 lcd would beat it.

$169 at J&R 2 years ago.
But lots of 19" CRTs will do this (although most that will are closer to $300), and nearly all 21" CRTs will do it. I am not about to drop a crapload of cash to get a comparable digital display.

Trust me, no $300 LCD is even in the same league. You LCD fans are too used to seeing the piece of crap $25-$50 CRTs that are purchased in bulk for businesses/used for low budget systems.

what are you saying. do WHAT ?
anyway its up to you man !!
imo any good lcd around 300 buck would be better. larger screen too.

 

[glugglug]

Originally posted by: tanishalfelven
what are you saying. do WHAT ?

2560x1600 @ 66Hz

 

[TheRyuu]

Originally posted by: glugglug

Originally posted by: tanishalfelven
what are you saying. do WHAT ?

2560x1600 @ 66Hz

So wait, what do you want this CRT to do? Watch video's? Or is this just for standard use of the computer.

Or are you actually not looking for a monitor but instead raising the questions "is HDCP only on DVI/HDMI?"

Cause if your looking for something for video, then why would you want to run it at 2560x1600???

Edit: I think I'm missing the point of this thread.
And I wouldn't argue with xt about monitors. He's like a god of monitors.

 

[imported_Seer]

Too bad with all the arguing no one even mentioned the ICT. This stands for Image Constraint Token, and it is a flag that can be set on or off (publishers choice) in HDCP media. Something to keep in mind: ICT only affects analog display of HDCP content. Here are some links to get you started:

Basic Explanation
http://www.digitalhome.ca/hdtv/idx/0/41...what_is_an_image_constraint_token.html

Analysis
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060122-6027.html

Good News: ICT not Implemented until 2010-2012
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060521-6880.html

Congrats to all the worthless lcd users who think their displays are actually better than crts, and also managed to get the information wrong.

 

[hans007]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: glugglug

Originally posted by: xtknight
HDMI is a standard for transmitting data, irrelevant to encryption itself. It is basically DVI+audio.

HDCP (high-bandwidth digital content protection) will be needed on the monitor (or a device prior to the monitor, outputting a DVI/VGA signal) to view HD-DVD and Bluray material (and other HDCP-requiring media) in full resolution. This applies when using any operating system. At the moment, no CRT monitors have HDCP supported via DVI or HDMI, though a few CRT TVs do.

$2000 LCDs do not match my $169 CRT in display capability.

The "$2000 LCD" would exceed it in several categories but fall short in response time and black level.

The only categories in which the LCD would exceed it would be weight, desk space, and power consumption.

If you are unconvinced of LCDs there are always other technologies like SED and OLED on the horizon.

Possibly size, but certainly not resolution or image quality. In fact, DVI isn't even capable of most resolutions I use. Even dual-link DVI can't reach my cheap monitor's max.

So your $169 monitor does over 2560x1600@60 Hz and supports a 330MHz pixel clock input? What model?

HDCP makes no sense for a CRT when the CRT is not digital.

That's like saying it doesn't make any sense to watch streaming media because it's digital and your CRT is analog.

well that is actually sort of true.

crts have to be analog. the video card has to have a ramdac to convert that digital media. to analog.


most companies do not even product crts anymore, and if they do its usually 17" size for budget monitors. you are pretty much out of luck.


you cant DRM an analog connection so the video pathway at some point could be compromised. i knoew viewsonic made some dvi analog monitors before, but it required a digital to analog conversion at the monitor side (though no conversion on the video card) and was just about the same.


i also think that 2500x1600 would look awful on a crt because the refresh rate would kill your eyes. when an lcd has a "refresh rate" i tnever actually has to do a full refresh because all the pixels are just painted on or off whereas a crt is constantly refreshing.

eyestrain wise LCDs kill CRTs by a mile. not to mention if you want good looking 2d on a crt you need a high end 2d card, or a very clean 2d analog signal, or even a bnc connector. with dvi all lcds get a pure unruined dvi signal.

i cant tell you how many crappy looking 2d analog cards i've seen where at a higher res there is just so much interferance that it looked awful on analog monitor. dvi fixes that.

 

[TanisHalfElven]

Originally posted by: wizboy11

Originally posted by: glugglug

Originally posted by: tanishalfelven
what are you saying. do WHAT ?

2560x1600 @ 66Hz

So wait, what do you want this CRT to do? Watch video's? Or is this just for standard use of the computer.

Or are you actually not looking for a monitor but instead raising the questions "is HDCP only on DVI/HDMI?"

Cause if your looking for something for video, then why would you want to run it at 2560x1600???

Edit: I think I'm missing the point of this thread.
And I wouldn't argue with xt about monitors. He's like a god of monitors.

one more thing. why do you need
2560x1600 @ 66Hz on a less than 21" viewable area screen.
i mean why.
thats the resolution 30"+ monitors use and its looks sharp on them.
a 24" monitor usually is 19x10 and looks gret even up close.

 

[Matt2]

I'm staring at a 19" CRT right now @ 1600x1200 85hz refresh rate and its killing my eyes.

I cant wait to get home to my LCD.

Bottom line:

CRTs are going the way of the dinosaur.

This thread is comparable to the ones where people complain that there are no high end GPUs available for AGP.