Question about Vietnam war

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Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
That is still a political argument though. At the time of Vietnam, the US still would have won a nuclear war. I would have meant millions of dead US people, and possibly billions in the world. The reason that is not acceptable is because of the peoples will aka political.

Also, the US could have finished off the north, but the will of the people at home wanted the war to end.

You need two things to win a war. Military might, and political will. The US had more than enough of the first, but not of the 2nd. People for the first time got to see war on their TV, and they did not like it. America en masse got to see war. It did not matter that we were winning the war, because we lost the will of the people.

That is pretty much what it boiled down to. We were killing them at a 2 to 1 ratio but that really wasn't worth it in our book. We kicked more ass than got out ass kicked, but the end objective was never met. I guess in that sense we lost, but by sheer numbers still won.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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We won most of the battles but, lost the war thanks to the incompetence and greed of our government.

Didn't we have attain about a 40-to-1 (North Vietnamese) kill-to-(American) death ratio against the North Vietnamese? It's hard to call that "losing".

It was definitely a devastating loss of life and treasure for our nation, but I have difficulty calling a 40-to-1 kill-to-death ratio a loss.
 

silicon

Senior member
Nov 27, 2004
886
1
81
My 16 year nephew has to do a report on the Vietnam War. He asked me a question about it and I'm really unsure how to answer really. He asked me basically...

"How did the most powerful country in the world, with the best equipped, best lead, best trained military this world has ever seen lose the war?"

I was totally unsure how to answer really. Its kind of a daunting question...
Yes the US, at that time, was the most powerful, was the best equipped and possibly the best trained in the world. The war was lost, IMO, because the media in the US was not supporting the war. They lost it on the home front.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
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londojowo.hypermart.net
To start, the military was totally unprepared to fight a guerrilla war. Then the government wouldn't listen to it's military advisers and attempted to limit the engagement to strategic targets. There were no strategic targets. That coupled with no goal or exit plan put the final nail in the coffin. We won most of the battles but, lost the war thanks to the incompetence and greed of our government.

Excellent answer!!
 

Caravaggio

Senior member
Aug 3, 2013
508
1
0
(from your source)
"The United States pulled out of the Vietnam war. We did not lose. Technically, we were not at war, we were advisors."

Technically, your ego is in deep denial.

If a nation claims it will fight with all its resources to "regain the independence of South Vietnam" (LBJ) and it fails to do so after expending billions of dollars and tens of thousands of lives in the process, and then withdraws to allow the enemy complete control of the contested space, then I think that only the word 'loss' comes close to capturing the total debacle.

I'm confident that the plucky villagers of My Lai could have managed without Lt. Calley's helpful "advice".

Presumably you will argue that America and the coalition have 'won' in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Somalia too?
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
We lost in Vietnam because we didn't fight a total war, we tried to do the Politician thing and keep it limited. Note that starting with Vietnam and each time since, each time we fight a limited war we never achieve our primary long term objectives. Basically this is why Politician and Media should never be allowed to influence where we are warring: The negatives they bring to the situation far outweigh any positives.

I think that's a real cop-out, especially as far as the media is concerned. The media's job should never be to fall in line and only faithfully report the official line coming out of DC.
 

GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
1
0
My 16 year nephew has to do a report on the Vietnam War. He asked me a question about it and I'm really unsure how to answer really. He asked me basically...

"How did the most powerful country in the world, with the best equipped, best lead, best trained military this world has ever seen lose the war?"

I was totally unsure how to answer really. Its kind of a daunting question...

It is daunting, and like many things, there probably isn't one (or even a few) correct answers.

First off, pre-Vietnam, for the most part, wars were fought against nations. That meant that you had specific goals to "win". Occupying a country that declared war was a good way to win, or inflict enough damage that the country surrenders. Either way, there were pretty clear-cut ways to "win".

In Vietnam, we were fighting an insurgency. How do you "win" against that? How do you even define "winning"? As you can see in the middle east, it is hard to eliminate insurgents. Plus, the nation you are defending really needs to help, and want to be free (for whatever definition of free you want). If the native population isn't going to help, it makes it even harder.

As to our military, if you read accounts of the time, we did not have the best military. Because of the dislike of Vietnam, politicians didn't want to activate the National Guard and Reserves to fight (all the older people in the those units didn't want to go, and they vote). So the military (mainly Army) had to draft large numbers of people that didn't want to fight. There were also mainly 1-year tours, which meant a lot of local knowledge had to be relearned. One Army office I believe was quoted as saying "We didn't fight one war for 12 years, we fought 12 1-year wars" (or something like that).

Add to the fact that the Army was prepared to fight the Soviets at the Fulda Gap, so didn't have training or tactics to fight unconventional forces in a jungle without the help of the local population in many cases. Then there were the officers that were only using Vietnam to advance their careers, and results be damned.

One example that got made into a movie, look at the movie and book about Hal Moore. He fought a 3-day battle in the middle of nowhere when they choppered in to look for the enemy. He "won", but after the battle was over, they pulled out. In a conventional war, you take and hold ground, and keep advancing to your objective. In Vietnam. there was no point to hold ground (for the most part), since there was no point. For the most part, the US Army never really adapted to this type of combat.

Then you have to deal with China and the USSR. It was a proxy war as others have said, so invading North Vietnam would have probably widened the war (just like in Korea, we couldn't invade China). And lets be honest. No one in the US cared about the country or the Vietnamese population, it was all about beating the USSR and score some points in the game they played.

Lots of reasons, to pick from, but the best lesson is to realize that you need a good plan and end-game for something like this. A more modern example of this was the first Gulf War. Bush 1 realized that invading Iraq would be a quagmire that wouldn't end so they just freed Kuwait. They wanted to be free, they would help, so it was a straight forward operation, with a clear goal, "Free Kuwait". The military went in, built up, and won. Then they went home (for the most part). That is a good plan.

The Second Gulf War is a great lesson to how to repeat Vietnam. We went in without any thought on how to "win", other then to kill Saddam, and decimated the country and infrastructure, and didn't know what to do once we had the country. And of course, Iraq is still screwed up to this day. In short, you better have a damned good reason to go to war, and a clearly defined (and attainable) victory and end-game, otherwise you get stuck in a never-ending war, which no one wants.
 

Caravaggio

Senior member
Aug 3, 2013
508
1
0
.....
One example that got made into a movie, look at the movie and book about Hal Moore. He fought a 3-day battle in the middle of nowhere when they choppered in to look for the enemy. He "won", but after the battle was over, they pulled out. In a conventional war, you take and hold ground, and keep advancing to your objective. In Vietnam. there was no point to hold ground (for the most part), since there was no point.....

Good analysis Garfield.

The part of your post I have quoted reveals much about America's approach to the war. There was no strategy. Just expend some ammunition then pull out.
Who benefits from such inane action? The only obvious beneficiaries are the shareholders of the ordnance manufacturers whose machinery and ammunition must constantly be replaced.
Arms companies need war and bankers like them too. Perhaps that's why we have so many unwinable conflicts?

Bob Dylan used to sing about "the Masters of War". He has turned inwards since then.
 

Cienja

Senior member
Aug 27, 2007
471
0
76
www.inconsistentbabble.com
Tell your nephew to get his history book (assuming this is a high school History class) and find the chapter he's supposed to have read and read it out loud to/with him and talk about it as you go.

The info to write the paper is all in that chapter. That's what the teacher is expecting. I'm not disagreeing with any of the previous replies, hell, go for it and write a kick-ass paper with what we believe to be the truth as shown in the previous replies, but at 16 years old will he comprehend and understand all of the real reasons, or are the mainstream reasons going to net the same grade? 16 years old is damn young and I'm guessing he doesn't care as much as you do. This is just my opinion based on my experience raising two kids' and their experiences at that age with similar papers.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
1,594
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Tell your nephew to get his history book (assuming this is a high school History class) and find the chapter he's supposed to have read and read it out loud to/with him and talk about it as you go.

The info to write the paper is all in that chapter. That's what the teacher is expecting. I'm not disagreeing with any of the previous replies, hell, go for it and write a kick-ass paper with what we believe to be the truth as shown in the previous replies, but at 16 years old will he comprehend and understand all of the real reasons, or are the mainstream reasons going to net the same grade? 16 years old is damn young and I'm guessing he doesn't care as much as you do. This is just my opinion based on my experience raising two kids' and their experiences at that age with similar papers.

Don't be gettin' all cynical and pragmatic with us, that's my job. :D
The Vietnam war isn't history with me, it's personal. It was a defining period of my life as WWII was for my father. I'm mildly annoyed that someone could be old enough to have a 16 year old son and not know much about the Vietnam war. I say mildly because, there are some of my own generation who don't. Sigh...

You're most likely right but, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to spark an interest in our kids to examine the events that shaped our current society.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,498
50,652
136
We lost in Vietnam because we didn't fight a total war, we tried to do the Politician thing and keep it limited. Note that starting with Vietnam and each time since, each time we fight a limited war we never achieve our primary long term objectives. Basically this is why Politician and Media should never be allowed to influence where we are warring: The negatives they bring to the situation far outweigh any positives.

Wait, wut.

Please explain how you think wars should be conducted without politicians and the media. Politicians, specifically.

This is an amazingly dumb idea.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
My 16 year nephew has to do a report on the Vietnam War. He asked me a question about it and I'm really unsure how to answer really. He asked me basically...

"How did the most powerful country in the world, with the best equipped, best lead, best trained military this world has ever seen lose the war?"

I was totally unsure how to answer really. Its kind of a daunting question...

Besides a false provocation to start the war to protect a corrupt regime and "destroy a village to save it" Military mind set?
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,466
3,067
121
Assuming facts not in evidence.

The US military wasn't an all-volunteer service, and the Vietnam War used a lot of draftees. So, "best trained" is assuming a whole lot. Warm bodies may be more accurate for a lot of the soldiers.

So, first, you have to look past the "Vietnam War", back to the history of Vietnam. It had been a colony of France since the 1860s or so, with constant uprisings every few years. So, first off, the US soldiers weren't necessarily the best-trained forces in the world. Vietnamese soldiers had been fighting the French using guerrilla tactics off and on for a hundred years before US soldiers started spilling blood there.

Second, in addition to Vietnamese soldiers being very experienced with decades of fighting, you have to remember that Vietnam has a lot of jungle. So, you have locals used to the heat and conditions, and who know their way around and can speak to the other locals. Against US troops not used to the conditions, who cannot speak with the locals.

Third, think Revolutionary War. Sure, the early US had help from the French, and Britain was also engaged in a much larger war outside of the colonies, but you had US troops fighting guerrilla-style against the British and winning (often losing when they fought face-to-face). So, guerrilla tactics are key to fighting better-equipped/tech. Not to mention, and perhaps one of the most important factors, but the Vietnamese/NVA actually lived there. Duh? Well, no. It's a jungle.mountainous country with lots of little villages, which is literally perfect for guerrilla tactics. Burn a village, capture a city, destroy a tunnel, and the enemy just drops their cheap rifles and walks away.

You just outspent the enemy 100-1 to temporarily capture a useless hill in the middle of the jungle that they'll take back control of as soon as the US soldiers leave.

Grats!



Take Hanoi and now you've gone from offensive on one little point on a map... to defending that one little point on the map...offensive to defensive, with literally nothing to show for it. The soldiers, supplies, and commanders are all out in the jungle. Have fun defending your city... that you now have police responsibility for. i.e. counterproductive considering the war, the territory, and the cost/benefits of controlling a city.

Also, the Vietnam War was intended to defend S. Vietnam and it's dictatorship from N. Vietnam. Cold war strategy was to hold, not take over new land and provoke a hot war between USSR/China and the US.

Finally, think outside the box. Taken everything I've said, do you believe the average NVA soldier was a die-hard commie ready to spit on the US flag and capitalism, or perhaps could the NVA simply have been fighting just another colonial power (The French from the 1860s to 1950s, and then the US from the 1960s to the 1970s)?

How do you define winning the Vietnam War? At first the US thought it was with body counts and supply lines destroyed. But if the average citizen/soldier considers it a war of "Independence" and "Freedom", how do you defeat them? What were the attitudes of many S. Vietnamese people who lived under a US-supported brutal dictator? How much did they want the US to stay there forever (Germany, Japan and Korea were "conquered" 70+ years ago...how many US soldiers are still there)?

The better question to ask is, given the history of Vietnam, their view of the war as a war against outside colonial powers, the geography/topography, and cold war politics and posturing...who in the hell actually believed the US could "win" there, considering there was literally nothing to win, and at best, would be an ongoing defense mission of a brutal dictator literally on the other side of the planet.

Very well made points.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106

Ass fucking infantry?

Air Force Instructor?

Sorry I am not familiar with that term so could you spell it out for me?

Also I am naturally very interested in this stuff so if I ask you something that you do not like or want to respond to you can just tell me.

Thankyou.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
Survived, unlike many I knew.

Thank you for your service.

I somewhat know the feeling though not at the magnitude you did I'm sure. I lost several friends in a "Peace Keeping" role in Beirut both the in the barracks and those shot by snipers while trying to secure the area after the explosion.

Fair winds and following seas to all who gave their lives.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Thank you for your service.

I somewhat know the feeling though not at the magnitude you did I'm sure. I lost several friends in a "Peace Keeping" role in Beirut both the in the barracks and those shot by snipers while trying to secure the area after the explosion.

Fair winds and following seas to all who gave their lives.

Another place we didn't belong, sad to say.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
Another place we didn't belong, sad to say.

I won't disagree with you on that. It was by far the worse experience of my life. Even being wounded didn't bother me as bad as loading fellow service members into body bags, specially one of my best friends who was killed at the same time I was wounded. The guilt of surviving stayed with me for many years.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
Didn't we have attain about a 40-to-1 (North Vietnamese) kill-to-(American) death ratio against the North Vietnamese? It's hard to call that "losing".

It was definitely a devastating loss of life and treasure for our nation, but I have difficulty calling a 40-to-1 kill-to-death ratio a loss.

An estimated 4 million dead Vietnamese versus 58,000 U.S. troops.

It is considered a loss because the U.S. pulled out knowing South Vietnam has no chance. They just did not have the will to fight and the North Vietnamese would have sent many more to die.

We bombed the shit out of North Vietnam... but when a country is only 12% industrialized how much can you bomb? A lot of civilians were being killed/maimed and the U.S. public could not stomach that.

After the war the North Vietnamese generals admitted they were defeated.... they just had to wait it out.