Question about LOTR-Return of the King (book, not the movie)

[Nil]

***********Possible spoiler for those who have not read the book (shame on you! )***********












At the end of "The Return of the King", Frodo, Gandolf, and a bunch of other Middle Earth 1337s float off to the "undying lands". Now, that sounds kind of self explanatory, but I have a couple of questions..

What are the undying lands and does Tolkien explain this more in other writings? Also, if they are going to a place where they would never die, how would this help relieve Frodo's pain?

One last thing, am I being critical? I love the books (I've read um several times), but this just bothers me for some reason.

 

[BD2003]

The entire planet is not just middle earth. The planet is called arda, and there are lands to the west, where it all started. Its kind of where the gods and the old elves chill, cause middle earth is so screwed. I suppose the gods will give cut him a little slack out in the west.

It all gets explained in the silmarillion.

Hehe, dont worry, I asked the exact same question about 2 weeks ago.

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/a/arda.html

 

[Athanasius]

The place they were going (Valinor) does not confer immortality. If an immortal person goes there (like Gandalf or an elf), they bring their unending life with them. Frodo would still grow old and die in Valinor, and then his spirit would pass outside of "Arda." But Valinor is a place of great goodness and beauty and light noramlly reserved only for those (like elves) whose spirits are tied to the fate of Arda and cannot escape it. It seems since Frodo's spirit was so wounded by the Ring, he was granted permission to go there and gain some measure of healing for the rest of his days.

Aragorn's race (the Numenoreans) were, in the ancient past, deceived by Sauron and thought that they could conquer Valinor and achieve immortality. All of this is virtually unknowable by reading the LOTR. The Silmarillion and its accompanying tales (like "Akellabeth") fills the reader in.

Its a very subtle twist and commentary on the idea of immortality. What men call "The Doom of Men" (to only live for a short time in Arda) the Elves call "The Gift of Men" (to get to experience Arda but then escape the confines of it and go directly to "Illuvatar" the Creator).

 

[XMan]

Hmm, I have a question too . . . I don't seem to remember much ever being said in the books about Saruman creating the Uruk-Hai. They showed it in the movie, but there was still a bit of confusion, at least to me . . . what did he do, bury orcs in the mud, then cast spells on them, or what? Can anybody shed some light on the subject.

 

[fatalbert]

<< Hmm, I have a question too . . . I don't seem to remember much ever being said in the books about Saruman creating the Uruk-Hai. They showed it in the movie, but there was still a bit of confusion, at least to me . . . what did he do, bury orcs in the mud, then cast spells on them, or what? Can anybody shed some light on the subject. >>



actually, he crossed orcs with men,

this allowed them to be unhindered by the sun.

the orcs were originally elves, captured during the great darkness, before the sun, and like anything created during that time, hates the sun

 

[Passions]

They are going to the place where they were all born. They were born and all childhood friends, so they want to go and chill again. Legolas and Gimli go to meet their wives and have a ball. Aragorn and Liv Tyler will live next door to them.

 

[Nil]

Thanks for the replies! That kinda clears it up for me. I have The Silmarillion, but I got bored with it and never finished it (it reads like the bible, and I felt like I should be drinking wine and eating "jeezits")

BTW, did anyone hear about the new movie commin out thats placed in middle earth, but has nothing to do with LOTR? Info here

 

[XMan]

<< actually, he crossed orcs with men,

this allowed them to be unhindered by the sun.

the orcs were originally elves, captured during the great darkness, before the sun, and like anything created during that time, hates the sun >>



Was this discussed in the book? It hasn't been that long since I read it. What you say sounds familiar, but I don't remember where I got it from.

 

[Martin]

<< Thanks for the replies! That kinda clears it up for me. I have The Silmarillion, but I got bored with it and never finished it (it reads like the bible, and I felt like I should be drinking wine and eating "jeezits")

BTW, did anyone hear about the new movie commin out thats placed in middle earth, but has nothing to do with LOTR? Info here >>




Well, the Silmarillion is sorta like the Bible. It starts off with the creation of the earth, then the comming of life and then the story of the people in it.


Only its a lot more interesing

 

[BettyBoop]

In addition to reading "The Silmarillion," I recommend "The Book of Lost Tales" (sold in two volumes.) These early works provide a rich background which makes LOTR even more enjoyable the next time you read it (I am assuming that everyone who likes LOTR will read it over and over.)

 

[Triumph]

I was under the impression that the Undying Lands were seperated from Arda when the Numenoreans tried to sail west to it. And I thought that it was kinda like Heaven, where everyone would go there and be infinitely happy. And I thought that when Men died, that was it. No afterlife with Illuvatar at all. Course I only read the Silmarrillion once. That's a tough ass book.

 

[Martin]

<< I was under the impression that the Undying Lands were seperated from Arda when the Numenoreans tried to sail west to it. And I thought that it was kinda like Heaven, where everyone would go there and be infinitely happy. And I thought that when Men died, that was it. No afterlife with Illuvatar at all. Course I only read the Silmarrillion once. That's a tough ass book. >>




The undying lands were once connected to middle eart (one could sail across them like Earendil did), but after the Numenorians tried to infade it, Illuvatar (at Manwe's bidding) destroyed Numenor and made middle earth round and only those granted permission could find the "straight way" to Valinor.

Valinor is not really heaven. the souls of dead elves reside there (in the halls of Mandos), but not those of Men. When men die, their souls go for a short time to the Halls of Mandos, but after a little while, they depart from middle--earth and get to go to the real heaven, where they find out Illuvatar's master plans, while elves continue to be tied to arda.

 

[Triumph]

<< The undying lands were once connected to middle eart (one could sail across them like Earendil did), but after the Numenorians tried to infade it, Illuvatar (at Manwe's bidding) destroyed Numenor and made middle earth round and only those granted permission could find the "straight way" to Valinor.

Valinor is not really heaven. the souls of dead elves reside there (in the halls of Mandos), but not those of Men. When men die, their souls go for a short time to the Halls of Mandos, but after a little while, they depart from middle--earth and get to go to the real heaven, where they find out Illuvatar's master plans, while elves continue to be tied to arda. >>


Ah, ok. The way I understood it was that the gift of men was just an unconcious death and were not permitted into "heaven" (Undying Lands). Whereas elves had to live on forever. I guess I likened it to the Highlander, where they were given the "gift" of immortal life.

 

[EdipisReks]

<< actually, he crossed orcs with men, this allowed them to be unhindered by the sun.

the orcs were originally elves, captured during the great darkness, before the sun, and like anything created during that time, hates the sun >>



according to my copy of David Day's Tolkien Illustrated Encyclopedia: "In the year 2475 of the Third Age a new breed of Orkish soldiery came out of Mordor". Sauron, not Saruman, created the Uruk-hai, and they were created hundreds of years before the one ring was found again.

--jacob

 

[yakko]

<< Aragorn's race (the Numenoreans) were, in the ancient past, deceived by Sauron and thought that they could conquer Valinor and achieve immortality. All of this is virtually unknowable by reading the LOTR. The Silmarillion and its accompanying tales (like "Akellabeth") fills the reader in. >>

Actually some of the history of Akallabeth is in the appendix of Return Of The King.